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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803898 times)
Bassica
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May 20, 2015, 04:23:08 PM
 #24641

RUT starting to roll again after having broken the wedge:

img Russell
prepare for launch:

 img VIX

I'm actually short russel since yesterday, or is that what you mean? Still leveraged short on S&P, got pushed out of my DJIX shorts Sad might get myself some new contracts. Also some longs VIX just for the hell of it.

 
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May 20, 2015, 04:26:00 PM
 #24642


Thanks for the links, appreciated. (Note to self: every once in a while have a look at r/bitcoin)

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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May 20, 2015, 04:27:03 PM
 #24643

RUT starting to roll again after having broken the wedge:

img Russell
prepare for launch:

 img VIX

I'm actually short russel since yesterday, or is that what you mean? Still leveraged short on S&P, got pushed out of my DJIX shorts Sad might get myself some new contracts. Also some longs VIX just for the hell of it.

 

certainly don't rely on me for investment advice.  personally, i stopped trading the stock mkt some time ago (too much manipulation) altho i still have my open gold short DZZ.
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May 20, 2015, 04:27:56 PM
 #24644

for the first time ever in Bitcoin's history, we'll have a scalable mining ASIC embedded in the most popular portable computing device on the planet (smartphones) whose growth is set to skyrocket and turn billions of unbanked into banked clients not only for micropayments but for standard commerce via a hardware wallet.  the portability aspect of this device potentially will allow it to mine for free.  right now i can envision unemployed African kids camped out at Starbucks or public libraries with not one but 7 Android phones (2 in their front pockets, 2 in their back pockets, 2 in their shirt pockets, and 1 in their hands for surfing) plugged into public outlets generating BTC while they're sipping their lattes.  wait, nevermind Starbucks.  why not go to the airports where it's plain to see the proliferation of phone charging kiosks in preparation for the smartphone age?  

free electricity for all!

Perhaps you missed the point that the plan (at least for the heating appliances) is likely to sell devices at lower cost and all the coins go to the cartels and oligarchs. The users are not to have to deal with any of the complications of mining and the mining runs on auto-pilot.

Assuming phones at higher cost will be available that allow users to get the coins from mining, I fail to see how this is paradigmatically differentiated from the $9 USB stick miner I can buy on Amazon.com and plug into my phone and computer now. Meaning there won't be any great adoption of users mining coins for themselves that isn't already underway.

The only major paradigm shift here is lower cost devices (appliances and smartphones) for dumb users, and the mined coins are going to the cartels and oligarchs.

If you can't grasp that obvious reality then I don't know what else to say to you. I guess enjoy the bliss while you can.

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May 20, 2015, 04:41:49 PM
 #24645

for the first time ever in Bitcoin's history, we'll have a scalable mining ASIC embedded in the most popular portable computing device on the planet (smartphones) whose growth is set to skyrocket and turn billions of unbanked into banked clients not only for micropayments but for standard commerce via a hardware wallet.  the portability aspect of this device potentially will allow it to mine for free.  right now i can envision unemployed African kids camped out at Starbucks or public libraries with not one but 7 Android phones (2 in their front pockets, 2 in their back pockets, 2 in their shirt pockets, and 1 in their hands for surfing) plugged into public outlets generating BTC while they're sipping their lattes.  wait, nevermind Starbucks.  why not go to the airports where it's plain to see the proliferation of phone charging kiosks in preparation for the smartphone age?  

free electricity for all!

Perhaps you missed the point that the plan (at least for the heating appliances) is likely to sell devices at lower cost and all the coins go to the cartels and oligarchs. The users are not to have to deal with any of the complications of mining and the mining runs on auto-pilot.

Assuming phones at higher cost will be available that allow users to get the coins from mining, I fail to see how this is paradigmatically differentiated from the $9 USB stick miner I can buy on Amazon.com and plug into my phone and computer now. Meaning there won't be any great adoption of users mining coins for themselves that isn't already underway.

The only major paradigm shift here is lower cost devices for user, and the mined coins are going to the cartels and oligarchs.

If you can't grasp that obvious reality then I don't know what else to say to you. I guess enjoy the bliss while you can.

the only financial plan i've heard of is the 25/75% split btwn the consumer and 21, so the consumer is going to get spending coin.  and that would be business savvy for the companies b/c that allows consumers to purchase other services and features.  yes, the mining and hardware wallet will be on autopilot and already setup which makes it brain dead easy for even guys like you to use so you won't feel so bad for having not bought @ $13.

since your brain continues to be adversely affected by the MS, the difference btwn a USB mining stick is that it has to be plugged into a non-portable computer to mine.  and this means at home where you'd have to pay for your own electricity.  your reading comprehension failed to pick up the part about "portable" and "free".  

your logic failure about a NWO & Digital Kill Switch scenario is that there is no reasonable financial elite apparatchik who would ever want to give up their greatest WMD, the printing press, in order to roll the dice on orchestrating a worldwide transition to such a dangerous (to them) tech such as Bitcoin.  you fail to read history going back to the cypherpunks of the 1970-80's on the quest/evolution of digital, anonymous money.  Bitcoin is the culmination of that project.  not some NSA sponsored scheme.  sorry dude.  you need to up your meds.
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May 20, 2015, 04:50:23 PM
 #24646

i don't have the energy right now to put up all the charts for you guys but for anyone interested in getting a feel for what's going on in the real economy should go look up the charts of energy, copper, mining companies, commodities, etc.  

most have already rolled and are starting to roll again, ie, deflation in full force.
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May 20, 2015, 04:51:54 PM
 #24647

the only financial plan i've heard of is the 25/75% split btwn the consumer and 21, so the consumer is going to get spending coin.  and that would be business savvy for the companies b/c that allows consumers to purchase other services and features.  yes, the mining and hardware wallet will be on autopilot and already setup which makes it brain dead easy

Meaning dumb users, who don't vote with their feet on pool centralization, meaning the mining is controlled by cartels and oligarchs as I stated.

I am sorry that your dismal logic skills demand that I be redundant.

for even guys like you to use so you won't feel so bad for having not bought @ $13.

I already told you what I am going to do to you and your NWO coin. I am not posturing. I am making a guarantee.

since your brain continues to be adversely affected by the MS,

Erroneous overconfidence and foolish pride comes before the downfall.

the difference btwn a USB mining stick is that it has to be plugged into a non-portable computer to mine.  and this means at home where you'd have to pay for your own electricity.  your reading comprehension failed to pick up the part about "portable" and "free".

Of course I didn't miss your point about stealing or parasiting electricity from public venues. We have some insight into your ethics now. We can be fairly certain that the price of the lattes will be increased accordingly.

Your ignorance of the fact that smartphones have a USB port is pathetic.

your logic failure about a NWO & Digital Kill Switch scenario is that there is no reasonable financial elite apparatchik who would ever want to give up their greatest WMD, the printing press, in order to roll the dice on orchestrating a worldwide transition to such a dangerous (to them) tech such as Bitcoin.

Control of Bitcoin mining if anything solidifies their control over media, because they can Digital Kill Switch dissidents and competitors.

 you fail to read history going back to the cypherpunks of the 1970-80's on the quest/evolution of digital, anonymous money.  Bitcoin is the culmination of that project.  not some NSA sponsored scheme.  sorry dude.  you need to up your meds.

Vacuous ideological rhetoric.

Prepare for you irrelevance. As guaranteed.

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May 20, 2015, 04:55:30 PM
 #24648

I find the 21 Dot Co. plans to be interesting and potentially pretty exciting. Speak-of efficiency though, I can't help but wonder if this could be achieved more effectively with a different algo like Blake-256 which, to my understanding, is vastly more efficient than SHA-256.  

Efficiency isn't important, it's only important to individuals relative to your competition. Efficiency determines the total hash rate. The amount of energy consumed in PoW is determined by the price of bitcoin. We are in a price zone determined by the physical limitations of available energy space etc. Once we have halved we enter a new zone.

21 are positioning themselves to take advantage of a price spike like the run-up to $1200 when mining with a shitty GPU was more profitable than at any time prior, even more profitable after the more efficient ASICs for a short time. The price dip now has made bitcoin more efficient, not the advancement in tech. That's just given an opportunity to the innovators.

Efficiency is very important in this context (although it doesn't seem like you're using the word efficiency the same way I am).

When you're talking about embedding chips in a wide range of consumer devices from larger household items to mobile devices and even their chargers, you need to do so in a way that is going to be seen as a benefit to the hardware manufacturers who will incorporate the chips into their devices -- and at the same time have it either be invisible to the end user, or be seen as a benefit to them.  

In in most cases this will be a lot more difficult to do if the devices generate noticeably more heat and use a lot more electricity, so anything that can improve this will make it an easier sell.

Yes, you can manufacture more efficient ASIC hardware for SHA-256, but you could also use the same manufacturing techniques to make ASICs designed for a more efficient algorythm and get the same hashrates, but for much less electricity/battery use and at a lower temperature.

A competing startup could potentially challenge 21 just by using a different algo and win more manufacturing partners who don't want to lower the Energy Star ratings of their appliances; or partners who want to sell super light, thin, and quiet (no fan) laptops with long battery life; phone & tablet manufacturers; etc.

There may be more efficient algos than Blake-256 - I'm using it as an example because I've mined a little with it and the white paper mentions the design being specifically suited for lightweight environments.

Here's the white paper:  https://131002.net/blake/blake.pdf


I was off topic I was making the following point. Challenging your understanding in bold.

Miners are profit driven.
Profit is defined as a return on investment.
Investment is a combination of fixed cost and veritable costs.

The opportunity cost in Bitcoin mining is a unique result of the structure of incentives in Bitcoin, simplified it comes in wave and is driven by the price of bitcoin.


The ratio of fixed cost to veritable costs is one most in bitcoin land get wrong (the evidence is the underlying wisdom that mining bitcoin is not profitable,) just this week someone found a way to add 5% to the total hashish output and I presume at a profit.

To the point you make, a more efficient algorithm that uses say half the electricity would not alter profit incentive in a PoW coin.
It would just shift the investment allocation from veritable costs to fixed costs. (The same energy would be used it is just a lot of the energy would be spent polluting as an output of chip manufacturing plants.)

Once the price and hashing network growth stabilized. A situation like we have now, miners would consume the same amount of energy, they would just need to use double the amount of efficient chips to do it. (the hash rate would just be higher not the same)

So my point being for an equal impact in the total mining pie you are going to generate an equal amount of heat.

Efficiency is not a universal principal it is a relationship relative to competition. the cost of bitcoin is what determines how much of the earths resources are needed to secure the wealth it protects.

I think it is way more efficient than an exponential 3% growth we have in fiat.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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May 20, 2015, 05:05:21 PM
 #24649

Hi everybody,
has any of you watched the following documentary (Money vs Currency - Hidden Secrets Of Money by Mike Maloney)?
This guy does not mention Bitcoin throughout the documentary but knowing something about it this made me more and more conscious that BTC is a real opportunity in a time of crisis like the one we're facing now.

From my point of view, BTC is like gold and better than gold in some aspects.

I hope some of you will find this interesting.
Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU

He does talk about Bitcoin in video 5, he was a Bitcoin skeptic for a while and I believe he was buying in in the $400 range as a proponent.

I watched until the fourth episode only. I might watch them all then.
Thanks.

In any case, I think his prediction on the timings of economic crisis is quite accurate. History will tell.

Seneca said: “There is no favorable wind for the sailor who doesn’t know where to go“.
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May 20, 2015, 05:07:21 PM
 #24650

the only financial plan i've heard of is the 25/75% split btwn the consumer and 21, so the consumer is going to get spending coin.  and that would be business savvy for the companies b/c that allows consumers to purchase other services and features.  yes, the mining and hardware wallet will be on autopilot and already setup which makes it brain dead easy

Meaning dumb users, who don't vote with their feet on pool centralization, meaning the mining is controlled by cartels and oligarchs as I stated.

right.  bringing on over a billion new miners is somehow going to be centralizing.  it won't matter if they're mining back to the device makers b/c there will be hundreds (?) of them either running their own pools (only takes a server) or farming it out to other pools, the # of which will proliferate to take up the new business resulting in decentralization.
Quote

I am sorry that your dismal logic skills demand that I be redundant.

for even guys like you to use so you won't feel so bad for having not bought @ $13.

I already told you what I am going to do to you and your NWO coin. I am not posturing. I am making a guarantee.

it's threats like this that convince me you are either a gvt or bank troll.  your insistence on an extreme world view smells of gvt hubris as to what you will do to punish us who believe in individual freedoms.

Quote

since your brain continues to be adversely affected by the MS,

Erroneous overconfidence and foolish pride comes before the downfall.

more threats
Quote

the difference btwn a USB mining stick is that it has to be plugged into a non-portable computer to mine.  and this means at home where you'd have to pay for your own electricity.  your reading comprehension failed to pick up the part about "portable" and "free".

Of course I didn't miss your point about stealing or parasiting electricity from public venues. We have some insight into your ethics now. We can be fairly certain that the price of the lattes will be increased accordingly.

it's not my ethics we're assessing here and i don't advocate anything.  it's what i think will happen based on my assessment of human behavior.  this is what will happen when you give ordinary ppl the proper economic incentives.  i mentioned yesterday that same feeling i got when viewing CPU/GPU mining videos back in 2011.  Bitcoin motivates ppl strongly.  you totally fail to grok this.
Quote

Your ignorance of the fact that smartphones have a USB port is pathetic.

wow, you are ignorant.  you didn't get what i said, did you?
Quote

your logic failure about a NWO & Digital Kill Switch scenario is that there is no reasonable financial elite apparatchik who would ever want to give up their greatest WMD, the printing press, in order to roll the dice on orchestrating a worldwide transition to such a dangerous (to them) tech such as Bitcoin.

Control of Bitcoin mining if anything solidifies their control over media, because they can Digital Kill Switch dissidents and competitors.

this sounds like gvt talk
Quote

 you fail to read history going back to the cypherpunks of the 1970-80's on the quest/evolution of digital, anonymous money.  Bitcoin is the culmination of that project.  not some NSA sponsored scheme.  sorry dude.  you need to up your meds.

Vacuous ideological rhetoric.

Prepare for you irrelevance. As guaranteed.

 Roll Eyes
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May 20, 2015, 05:11:01 PM
 #24651

New Poll:

TPTB_need_war is:

a. trolling
b. crazy
c. other
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May 20, 2015, 05:19:55 PM
 #24652

bullshit

yeah, like Samsung, who stands to install maybe a billion new smartphones with this new model, is going to just give up all future profits so that a NWO can tank the worldwide economy and take us down into a new Great Depression.

sounds legit.
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May 20, 2015, 05:27:14 PM
 #24653

i am stupid

hey TPTB, you need to ask your handlers to increase your pay by $235/13 or 18x to compensate you for the lost income since you showed up here in 2013.

or, a one time bonus to bring you up to where you need to be for your lost opportunity costs.
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May 20, 2015, 05:37:59 PM
 #24654

did i say that Bitcoin really should want to go after this market?  this is the Big Kahuna:

It will mark another dark day for an industry trying to put past sins behind it and brings the total in penalties some big banks will pay for their traders allegedly manipulating the $5-trillion-a-day foreign exchange market to about $10 billion.

U.S. banks JPMorgan and Citigroup and Britain's Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland are expected to plead guilty to criminal charges with the U.S. Department of Justice related to forex manipulation, people familiar with the matter said.

It would be unprecedented for the parent companies or main banking arms of so many major banks to plead guilty to criminal charges in a coordinated action. JPMorgan and Citigroup would be the first major U.S. banks to plead guilty to criminal charges in decades.

Swiss bank UBS is expected to avoid a criminal charge after getting immunity for alerting authorities to a possible problem. But it faces a criminal charge over the rigging of benchmark (Libor) interest rates, two people familiar with the matter said.


http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-five-big-banks-face-criminal-charges-and-5-billion-bill-over-fx-rigging-2015-5?r=US

game theory works.  UBS caught in the Prisoner's Dilemma.
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May 20, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
 #24655

Monero has lost ~90% of it's value vs. BTC since last September

Uh, no. You are misreading something.

My bad, I was looking at the market cap valuation which is off that much. The BTC price is only down ~75% from last Sept. Still not exactly great price performance....

You can't really blame XMR (which is priced against BTC, and more fundamentally trades relative to the greater crypto ecosystem) for BTC being down 75%. XMR is down relative to BTC over that time period (but up >100% since December, so why cherry pick starting points here?) but not anywhere near 90%.

Quote
I disagree here, there are multiple proposals on how to layer privacy oriented transactions on top of bitcoin. Some rely on shared secrets, some enable wallets to communicate and build distributed trustless mixing mechanisms (which is exactly what Monero says it does).

You are incorrect. That isn't exactly what Monero does. Monero doesn't do "distributed" mixing, it does counterparty-less mixing. Which means nothing distributed between any parties (or using any kind coordinating "node") and no shared secrets. There is no other proposed solution to do that. It can't be done in wallets.

1) Monero is still based on mixing. There is still taint there since there are traces of history. This is not a real step forward like zerocoin (or zerocash) which fully erases all history.

2) It is possible to implement in Bitcoin fully counterparty-less mixing, with no coordinated node and no shared secrets at the wallet level. Look at coinshuffle for an early example, I'm sure development on improving this will continue. Maybe I haven't looked closely enough, I fail to see any improvement Monero has over coinshuffle.

http://crypsys.mmci.uni-saarland.de/projects/CoinShuffle/coinshuffle.pdf
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May 20, 2015, 06:07:27 PM
 #24656

lol, Bitcoin is not nearly this volatile:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-20/chinese-bubble-stock-instacrash-wipes-out-14-billion-chinas-2nd-richest-man

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May 20, 2015, 06:22:28 PM
 #24657

the only financial plan i've heard of is the 25/75% split btwn the consumer and 21, so the consumer is going to get spending coin.  and that would be business savvy for the companies b/c that allows consumers to purchase other services and features.  yes, the mining and hardware wallet will be on autopilot and already setup which makes it brain dead easy

Meaning dumb users, who don't vote with their feet on pool centralization, meaning the mining is controlled by cartels and oligarchs as I stated.

right.  bringing on over a billion new miners is somehow going to be centralizing.  it won't matter if they're mining back to the device makers b/c there will be hundreds (?) of them either running their own pools (only takes a server) or farming it out to other pools, the # of which will proliferate to take up the new business resulting in decentralization.

How does the manufacturer get 75% as you said, if the user has the freedom to change which pool the device points to?

Whoops. Duh.

it's threats like this

I am not making a threat. I am making a guarantee. I rarely do this, because I hate vaporware and promising the future. But in this case, the outcome is so blatantly obvious, I can.

as to what you will do to punish us who believe in individual freedoms.

Your illogic leads you to fight against individual freedom. Thus you will destroy yourself. That is why it is easy to make a guarantee.

the difference btwn a USB mining stick is that it has to be plugged into a non-portable computer to mine.  and this means at home where you'd have to pay for your own electricity.  your reading comprehension failed to pick up the part about "portable" and "free".

Of course I didn't miss your point about stealing or parasiting electricity from public venues. We have some insight into your ethics now. We can be fairly certain that the price of the lattes will be increased accordingly.

it's not my ethics we're assessing here and i don't advocate anything.  it's what i think will happen based on my assessment of human behavior.

It would help if you had some actual experience instead of the Freudian slip of projecting your slimy ethics and incorrect economics on a reality that doesn't exist. I am here in the third world and charging is strictly not allowed unless you pay. And you will be charged more if there is a new class of phones that hogs electricity. My point is you always pay for what you get. You overpay in Starbucks $5 for a 20 cents drink, so you are not getting electricity for free.

you totally fail to grok this.

You don't grok that I grok all and including that you don't grok but think you do. This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect.

the difference btwn a USB mining stick is that it has to be plugged into a non-portable computer to mine.  and this means at home where you'd have to pay for your own electricity.  your reading comprehension failed to pick up the part about "portable" and "free".
Your ignorance of the fact that smartphones have a USB port is pathetic.

wow, you are ignorant.  you didn't get what i said, did you?

You think so don't ya? Did you entertain all the logical possibilities? How about the one where the USB port exists and if there was a market demand for mining on portable devices then the USB sticks would be made compatible with these ports.

Users sophisticated enough to mine will do it properly and not try to slime around and parasite a few watts here and there. You entirely don't understand marketing demographics, opportunity cost, economies-of-scale, and tsuris. You view people as dispensible, masochistic, unoptimizing, zombie robots in your vision of an army of religious/faithful nodes supporting your delusional greed masquerading in your mind as altruistic (lie!).

21 Inc isn't creating a market demand for independent mining. They are going to give some incentive discounts and 25% share hiding all the complexity of mining from these dumb users who have no demand for mining and then try to teach them to use their Bitcoins to buy ringtones and upsell crap in their walled garden model (a la iPhone and Apple App Store), while putting the mining on auto-pilot sending 75% to the cartels.

They understand these users are unsophisticated and need hand holding so they will sell them a walled garden ecosystem built around Bitcoin micropayments. Likely even moving these payments offchain to Coinbase or Circle.

Can you waste some more of my time please and clutter the thread with more of your nonsense?

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May 20, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
 #24658

I am hyper pissed off at you guys that you do not care that the world will be turned into a 1984 in your lifetime.

The Bitcoin community in general and people who frequent this thread in particular seem to be overwhelmingly wary of centralizing tendencies in government and possible 1984 scenarios. Just because many of us here are not convinced by your arguments about Bitcoin being a TPTB-engineered honeypot (or we might be too stupid to realize, as you might interpret it), doesn't mean we are cheering for a reptilian illuminati NWO clusterfuck, quite the opposite.

I am very aware that I have little to no technical knowledge to offer in this space. That is why I limit my activity to the one beneficial service I can provide: pointing out, that we are all allies in the intellectual fight against centralized one world government and in order to succeed, we need to leave our egos at the door, lest we just end up mimicking the struggle for becoming top-dog, alpha-males, claiming control over what people should do and think, which makes up the current structure of TPTB. We need discord for the decentralized agenda, so let's be friendly about it, shall we. Discord can be a lot of fun.

sidhujag & Pruden,

you are going to get f*cked.  get out now.  this one doesn't look like its coming back:



I have been following this graph you keep posting for a while now and I am really interested to see what (if anything) happens, once it breaks down below the support that is indicated.

I would actually appreciate some explanation as to why this particular chart is so important, because to be honest I don't understand its significance - I just like the pattern you have spotted Smiley

Keep up the good work.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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May 20, 2015, 06:27:01 PM
 #24659

New Poll:

TPTB_need_war is:

a. trolling
b. crazy
c. other


Do you ever write anything that is not noise? Do you enjoy cluttering this thread with non-information?

You can resolve your problem by showing up here. I am waiting for you. Stop hiding behind your sockpuppet. I am not hiding.

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May 20, 2015, 06:43:15 PM
 #24660

I am hyper pissed off at you guys that you do not care that the world will be turned into a 1984 in your lifetime.

The Bitcoin community in general and people who frequent this thread in particular seem to be overwhelmingly wary of centralizing tendencies in government and possible 1984 scenarios. Just because many of us here are not convinced by your arguments about Bitcoin being a TPTB-engineered honeypot (or we might be too stupid to realize, as you might interpret it), doesn't mean we are cheering for a reptilian illuminati NWO clusterfuck, quite the opposite.

I am very aware that I have little to no technical knowledge to offer in this space. That is why I limit my activity to the one beneficial service I can provide: pointing out, that we are all allies in the intellectual fight against centralized one world government and in order to succeed, we need to leave our egos at the door, lest we just end up mimicking the struggle for becoming top-dog, alpha-males, claiming control over what people should do and think, which makes up the current structure of TPTB. We need discord for the decentralized agenda, so let's be friendly about it, shall we. Discord can be a lot of fun.

sidhujag & Pruden,

you are going to get f*cked.  get out now.  this one doesn't look like its coming back:



I have been following this graph you keep posting for a while now and I am really interested to see what (if anything) happens, once it breaks down below the support that is indicated.

I would actually appreciate some explanation as to why this particular chart is so important, because to be honest I don't understand its significance - I just like the pattern you have spotted Smiley

Keep up the good work.

Dow Theory is a particular form of technical analysis based on a presumed linkage btwn 2 well known and followed indices, the Dow Industrials and the Dow Transports.  not everyone agrees that it is useful, as in all techniques, but i personally use it along with others.  i think it is important since it is so well known and followed.  if the Transports aren't following a rally in the Industrials that shows that there is a non-confirmation or divergence warning of underlying, underappreciated problems in the real economy.  can't have true industrial production if the transportation companies aren't moving the resources.  it also fits nicely if you believe that there is a PPT that manipulates the small set of companies that comprise the Dow Industrials upwards on a regular basis w/o having to pump money into all stocks across the board.  lotsa ppl focus on the Dow Industrials.  i think this is true.  everyone i know, from taxi cab drivers, to sophisticated money managers follow the Industrials on their phones for signs of trouble in the economy.  yeah, the SPX would probably be a better indicator but like i said, manipulators should theoretically manipulate the easiest manipulable indices possible and that would be the Industrials.  anyways here is more info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_theory
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