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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010268 times)
TPTB_need_war
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May 20, 2015, 09:08:56 AM
 #24581

Sounds like 10 years of lock-in to me. The manufacturer will be getting coins until it breaks down or is replaced. Nice revenue stream.

Was than a rebuttal? Any factual points? A consumer is going to sign a 10 year lockin on insignificant NAV gain  Huh

There's no signing anything. If you buy a product that lasts 10 years, you won't replace it for 10 years. You have bought 10 years worth of utility in advance.

Do I have to repeat my NAV point? You are losing the multiple variables now.

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May 20, 2015, 09:09:36 AM
 #24582

There is another reason this idea of manufacturer taking all the coins can't possibly work. The consumer will demand the heater works even when connectivity is down.

No one wants a heater that only works when the internet is online.

Thus what incentive does the consumer have to maintain connectivity if they aren't getting some of the coins and paying taxes on them?

Look you are envisioning a product that the consumer maintains as a miner, I'm not. It might have a prepaid cellular data chip in it  (one of the Bitcoin hardware wallet companies are doing this). The manufacturer might offer free monitoring and service maintenance or some other incentive if you hook it up to your WiFi (which had better be easy, or people won't do it, but it could possibly be made easy using a mobile app or something).

I don't know how the business model will work in practice. I do know there is an enormous amount of electric heating that can be harnessed for mining. Some clever business people will figure out how to do that, sooner or later (assuming PoW mining continues to be done), even if not 21.

Offering services to miners is not fungible to offering appliances to consumers.

Different level of profit, NAV expectation, portability expectation, specialization, acumen of the customer, and B2B.

Exactly, that's why 21 isn't offering anything to consumers, or miners. They appear at this point to be a silicon IP company. Their products will be sold to manufacturers of consumer products (according to them), or to suppliers of parts to those manufacturers.
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May 20, 2015, 09:10:26 AM
 #24583

Your comments about solar water heaters are irrelevant, because people aren't buying them (in the dominant markets). They are therefore inferior in some way (don't work particularly well in built-up cities for example, which is where populations are moving), in the opinion of the people making the purchases. That's the only opinion that matters, not yours.

Solar water heaters have issues. And mining doesn't  Huh

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May 20, 2015, 09:11:42 AM
 #24584

Exactly, that's why 21 isn't offering anything to consumers, or miners. They appear at this point to be a silicon IP company. Their products will be sold to manufacturers of consumer products (according to them), or to suppliers of parts to those manufacturers.

That doesn't obviate my point that comparing the end result of servicing miners with service contracts is not fungible to appliances sold at BestBuy to consumers.

The NAV isn't compelling neither is paying taxes on the mined revenue for many folks.

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May 20, 2015, 09:11:58 AM
 #24585

Your comments about solar water heaters are irrelevant, because people aren't buying them (in the dominant markets). They are therefore inferior in some way (don't work particularly well in built-up cities for example, which is where populations are moving), in the opinion of the people making the purchases. That's the only opinion that matters, not yours.

Solar water heaters have issues. And mining doesn't  Huh

You're not getting that nobody is proposing "mining" in anything like the form it is done today, with all of its issues. Embedded deeply into a product (or indeed embedded deeply into a chip which is embedded deeply into a product) it won't be recognizable.
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May 20, 2015, 09:14:59 AM
 #24586

Exactly, that's why 21 isn't offering anything to consumers, or miners. They appear at this point to be a silicon IP company. Their products will be sold to manufacturers of consumer products (according to them), or to suppliers of parts to those manufacturers.

That doesn't obviate my point that comparing the end result of servicing miners with service contracts is not fungible to appliances sold at BestBuy to consumers.

You're still not getting it. There are no service contracts here (or maybe there are, but pretty much the same as any other appliance). You can buy two appliances at BestBuy.  One mines, the other doesn't. The one that mines is cheaper. Other than that they are indistinguishable to you. You're likely going to buy the cheaper one. Or the difference might be a better warranty or some other differentiator. It is up to the manufacturer to decide how to incentivize the buyer.

One time I "bought" (not really) a cell phone and in addition to a cheap phone I got free tickets to a ball game. Whatever works.

Anyway, let's stop cluttering the thread. I think we've wasted more time and space than 21 deserves at this stage. They don't even have a product yet.
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May 20, 2015, 09:18:43 AM
 #24587

Your comments about solar water heaters are irrelevant, because people aren't buying them (in the dominant markets). They are therefore inferior in some way (don't work particularly well in built-up cities for example, which is where populations are moving), in the opinion of the people making the purchases. That's the only opinion that matters, not yours.

Solar water heaters have issues. And mining doesn't  Huh

You're not getting that nobody is proposing "mining" in anything like the form it is done today, with all of its issues. Embedded deeply into a product (or indeed embedded deeply into a chip which is embedded deeply into a product) it won't be recognizable.

I thought you were talking about what is viable now and can scale to 100 million users now. Now that you've clarified by implication of your requirement for it to be technologically opaque that this will be maybe a million users scaling up to perhaps 100 million in say 10 years, then it is more sensible. I said from the start it is an incremental market for now, not a mass movement. This also justifies the large venture capitalization. The ambition for opaque technological integration emcompasses wide area of highly capitalized players, e.g. telcom.

Then it will have limited geographic applicability for now. I want to carry my space heater across the USA, etc. It demands centralization of telcom for one.

And coin security will take a precipitous drop every northern summer because the population in the southern hemisphere is much less than and poorer than the northern.

Okay I do understand the push by the elite to Smart Meters (the plans have been in the works for this global Technocracy for decade or more) in every home that can monitor everything we do and turn off our appliances if we don't comply with all edicts.

Surely they are going to push this direction yes. But they won't scale this out overnight.

And I sure hope we can defeat this 1984 before they do.

Nothing wrong with mining + heating appliance if you hold your coins. Sending all the coins opaquely to the fascist corporate Big Brother is 666 directed.

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May 20, 2015, 09:23:55 AM
 #24588

Exactly, that's why 21 isn't offering anything to consumers, or miners. They appear at this point to be a silicon IP company. Their products will be sold to manufacturers of consumer products (according to them), or to suppliers of parts to those manufacturers.

That doesn't obviate my point that comparing the end result of servicing miners with service contracts is not fungible to appliances sold at BestBuy to consumers.

You're still not getting it. There are no service contracts here (or maybe there are, but pretty much the same as any other appliance). You can buy two appliances at BestBuy.  One mines, the other doesn't. The one that mines is cheaper. Other than that they are indistinguishable to you. You're likely going to buy the cheaper one. Or the difference might be a better warranty or some other differentiator. It is up to the manufacturer to decide how to incentivize the buyer.

One time I "bought" (not really) a cell phone and in addition to a cheap phone I got free tickets to a ball game. Whatever works.

Anyway, let's stop cluttering the thread. I think we've wasted more time and space than 21 deserves at this stage. They don't even have a product yet.

You've made a very compellling argument to end PoW asap if there are no counter measures and this becomes widespread.

I will be thinking about how to defeat this.

Again nothing wrong with getting people to mine their heat, if they keep their coins. Thus I think I see already how to defeat this movement at least for those who want anonymity. Also it shouldn't be too difficult to reverse engineer what ever turnkey appliances are developed and unlock the mined coins for the user (since obviously it pays more to the corporation than the NAV discount).

The masses will slide into this NWO. There is nothing we can do to stop them. For those that want anonymity and/or better arbitrage on the total income stream, mining for heat and keeping your coins may make a lot more sense.

Edit: the problem is how to keep dumb masses out of your coin but get enough smart people into the coin to make it viable with a circulating use case for currency. A way to keep the dumber of the Socialism Age masses out is anonymity, they are afraid of it (trust their hand held by Big Brother). The way to keep the smart Knowledge Age people into the coin is anonymity, they know they need it to protect wealth. The remaining component is the compelling circulating use case to grow the network effects. Monero proposes a game use. I will propose a different use.

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May 20, 2015, 09:39:30 AM
 #24589

Thus mining becomes a VAT that pays for society's heat usage. Isn't this is a theft/redistribution from the impoverished/colonialized/raped tropics to the northern climates?

Evaporative coolers could work in the deserts. Any way to turn heat into airconditioning in the tropics?

lunarboy
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May 20, 2015, 09:40:25 AM
 #24590





               Time to put a fork in this thread, it's done.
TPTB_need_war
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May 20, 2015, 09:50:24 AM
 #24591





               Time to put a fork in this thread, it's done.

I agree. Let's squelch detailed discussion on how changes to mining affect centralization and blockchain scaling. That wasn't the point of this thread any way right.

 Roll Eyes

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May 20, 2015, 10:25:40 AM
 #24592


Time to put a fork in this thread, it's done.

I agree. Let's squelch detailed discussion on how changes to mining affect centralization and blockchain scaling. That wasn't the point of this thread any way right.

 Roll Eyes

Your incessant concern trolling since joining the forum just over a month ago has reduced this once semi intellectual discussion thread to a hollow echo chamber.
Nice work if you can get it.
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May 20, 2015, 10:29:07 AM
 #24593

this is actually inspiring that all these divergent opinions still have the maturity and willingness to break bread together in the same room. i'm sure all their differing views were aired and hopefully some positive consensus will arise:



Nick Szabo does actually exist, he's not a virtual entity as I used to believe Tongue

If I may, in which occasion those ladies and gentlemen gathered together ?

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
Bagatell
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May 20, 2015, 11:03:11 AM
 #24594


Time to put a fork in this thread, it's done.

I agree. Let's squelch detailed discussion on how changes to mining affect centralization and blockchain scaling. That wasn't the point of this thread any way right.

 Roll Eyes

Your incessant concern trolling since joining the forum just over a month ago has reduced this once semi intellectual discussion thread to a hollow echo chamber.
Nice work if you can get it.

2 years +

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;topic=68655.msg11331343
cypherdoc
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May 20, 2015, 01:21:00 PM
 #24595


Time to put a fork in this thread, it's done.

I agree. Let's squelch detailed discussion on how changes to mining affect centralization and blockchain scaling. That wasn't the point of this thread any way right.

 Roll Eyes

Your incessant concern trolling since joining the forum just over a month ago has reduced this once semi intellectual discussion thread to a hollow echo chamber.
Nice work if you can get it.

2 years +

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;topic=68655.msg11331343

It started back when the price was $13. Now look at it.
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May 20, 2015, 01:32:36 PM
 #24596

this is actually inspiring that all these divergent opinions still have the maturity and willingness to break bread together in the same room. i'm sure all their differing views were aired and hopefully some positive consensus will arise:



Nick Szabo does actually exist, he's not a virtual entity as I used to believe Tongue

If I may, in which occasion those ladies and gentlemen gathered together ?
https://citp.princeton.edu/event/bitcoin/

source: peter todd
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/36hfu4/pic_coredevs_having_dinner_with_nick_szabo/
TPTB_need_war
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May 20, 2015, 02:41:46 PM
 #24597

I may have just one last thing under this username to say to those who are fighting for Bitcoin.

You have blood on your hands; justified by your foolish greed wherein you tell yourselves lies to wish away the clear writing on the wall.

Bitcoin and any PoW coin is doomed to mining take over by NWO coincident with the means to sell fully opaque heat appliances to the masses who do not give a fuck about their enslavement with a NWO coin. If you can't reason it out, show no gratitude to someone who could elucidate it to you, then you deserve your ignorant fate.

I am not concerned. I am hyper pissed off at you guys that you do not care that the world will be turned into a 1984 in your lifetime.

I am so pissed off at you, I will not rest until I pummel you and your NWO coin. In what way? Because your NWO coin is a wealth expropriation plan. It is a monopoly plan on mining to cartels and oligarchs. Top-down control malfunctions, restricts opportunities, kills network efforts, under performs, overcharges, and in general is a bankruptcy directed paradigm.

How dare you characterize my discussion in this thread as an echo chamber. You should be ashamed of yourselves, but guys like you only learn the hard way of being separated from your capital so that you can't repeat your juvenile destructive shit again.

I will get the last and very rich laugh.

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May 20, 2015, 03:01:23 PM
 #24598

[I am] simultaneously interacting with a significant number of females (try that!).

Did you actually write that? 

Or we can meet for a boxing match...I could utilize a human punching bag

 Roll Eyes
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May 20, 2015, 03:12:26 PM
 #24599

Hi everybody,
has any of you watched the following documentary (Money vs Currency - Hidden Secrets Of Money by Mike Maloney)?
This guy does not mention Bitcoin throughout the documentary but knowing something about it this made me more and more conscious that BTC is a real opportunity in a time of crisis like the one we're facing now.

From my point of view, BTC is like gold and better than gold in some aspects.

I hope some of you will find this interesting.
Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU

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TPTB_need_war
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May 20, 2015, 03:21:23 PM
 #24600

[I am] simultaneously interacting with a significant number of females (try that!).

Did you actually write that?

How can I help "men" who have more delusions than any human could possibly correct in his lifetime.

From the first man who ever interacted with Satoshi in a public forum:

http://blog.jim.com/economics/bitches-in-tech/

http://blog.jim.com/culture/the-false-life-plan/

http://blog.jim.com/economics/the-future-belongs-to-those-that-show-up/

http://blog.jim.com/economics/the-cure-for-iq-shredders/


I was in the gym tonight waiting for you sockpuppet. Lose the vagina and show up. Talk is cheap. Show up.

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