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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806430 times)
ErisDiscordia
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Imposition of ORder = Escalation of Chaos


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May 20, 2015, 09:58:09 PM
 #24681

I tried to take your advice and make cordial and rational discussions. The result I got was saying I shouldn't post much.

I do think you've become a bit more approachable and chill since I first saw you post under the anonymint handle, so that's good to see Smiley You still seem very dogmatic, though.

Alas, I do also think that this suggestion might prove quite valuable:

I have personally recommended acid to him many months ago.

If you are truly concerned, you will make sure you study the solution when it is made available. As everything will be explained in layman's terminology in a convincing manner. Then you will be able to argue convincingly to yourself that I was correct.

I will continue to try and digest new information which comes my way with as open a mind as I can manage without my brains oozing out of my ears. If you produce something which turns out to be all that you claim I'll be happy to let it teach me lots of new things, just like Bitcoin has. I just hope you'll make it easy to navigate. I still shudder when I remember trying to navigate your self-referential hyper cross-linked information hell you used to produce  Cheesy


It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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coinits
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011110000110110101110010


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May 20, 2015, 10:52:56 PM
 #24682

TBTB is a master troll of the highest order. Please reply with extreme caution.

He is definitely NOT a troll. Highly intelligent but....

Jump you fuckers! | The thing about smart motherfuckers is they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers. | My sig space for rent for 0.1 btc per week.
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May 20, 2015, 11:01:48 PM
 #24683

the only financial plan i've heard of is the 25/75% split btwn the consumer and 21, so the consumer is going to get spending coin.  and that would be business savvy for the companies b/c that allows consumers to purchase other services and features.  yes, the mining and hardware wallet will be on autopilot and already setup which makes it brain dead easy for even guys like you to use so you won't feel so bad for having not bought @ $13.

I can't quite tell but I think you're serious?

The consumer is going to get 25% of jack shit, and a bigger electricity bill. You can't possibly think this is a business model.

These ASICs are going to be nearly obsolete by the time anyone plugs them into a socket. They are not going to mine anything of value, certainly not enough to pay for any real world resources. A few satoshis is below the dust limit and unspendable.

Even if that were somehow overcome, do you really think that all the power outlets that people can use today for free, will still be free, once it becomes clear freeloaders will be making real profits by stealing power? Of course not. They're only free today because no one is trying to take advantage of them.

21's plan, as stated, is pure bullshit. The only question is whether they know it or not.


That's true. Large scale mining is here to stay. For the apparent 21's plan, people tend to view only the power as input cost. As always, it is manpower (in the form of management), natural resources and capital. Those chips cost money. Each chip added to a board cost far more than the chip itself, and that principle is also applicable to areas of a larger chip.

I think that it is not feasable. But bitcoin technology in the form of an automatic economic actor inside a device could be useful provided there is something for the devices to trade. Could be anything. A wallet and an automatic trader inside every device. They could have something like that in mind.
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May 20, 2015, 11:19:32 PM
 #24684

These ASICs are going to be nearly obsolete by the time anyone plugs them into a socket.

I don't know about that. First gen, yeah probably. But sooner or later ASICs will hit Moore's law or worse like everything else and their usable life will be measured in years (2-5 or more) like other chips.

Quote
21's plan, as stated, is pure bullshit. The only question is whether they know it or not.

Probably some of both

Quote from: Erdogan
But bitcoin technology in the form of an automatic economic actor inside a device could be useful provided there is something for the devices to trade. Could be anything. A wallet and an automatic trader inside every device. They could have something like that in mind.

They said exactly that is part of what they are doing. So where's the big mystery here?
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May 20, 2015, 11:29:50 PM
 #24685

1) Monero is still based on mixing. There is still taint there since there are traces of history. This is not a real step forward like zerocoin (or zerocash) which fully erases all history.

In fact even Zerocash has timing and other related side-channel attacks, such as vulnerability to IP monitoring. If  you know when someone sent a transaction and you are doing IP monitoring you can likely identify the transaction, even if you can't see what is in the transaction.

If you limit yourself to passive analysis of the blockchain (and ignore timing on the blockchain) then Zerocash is opaque, but the tradeoff for that is much newer and dodgier crypto than Monero (plus the still-trusted setup; their proposal is to do multiparty, but if you aren't a participant, or weren't around to witness it, you are still trusting it). There was recently a serious break in one of the crypto tools used by Zerocash. If that had happened with a live coin in operation the entire coin could well (likely would have been) destroyed.

I don't know if Zerocash will be ready for prime time soon enough to succeed. I'll certainly hedge in it if a coin launches and doesn't get too much too wrong though.
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May 20, 2015, 11:32:50 PM
 #24686

the only financial plan i've heard of is the 25/75% split btwn the consumer and 21, so the consumer is going to get spending coin.

I'm pretty sure in the white paper-ish thing they posted it says that the split can be anything, and is up to the manufacturer of the devices. I don't remember if it explicitly said that 21 will be using 75/25 for any particular devices or if that was just an example, or earlier speculation from third parties.


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May 20, 2015, 11:34:37 PM
 #24687

These ASICs are going to be nearly obsolete by the time anyone plugs them into a socket.

I don't know about that. First gen, yeah probably. But sooner or later ASICs will hit Moore's law or worse like everything else and their usable life will be measured in years (2-5 or more) like other chips.

Quote
21's plan, as stated, is pure bullshit. The only question is whether they know it or not.

Probably some of both

Quote from: Erdogan
But bitcoin technology in the form of an automatic economic actor inside a device could be useful provided there is something for the devices to trade. Could be anything. A wallet and an automatic trader inside every device. They could have something like that in mind.

They said exactly that is part of what they are doing. So where's the big mystery here?


The mystery here is that devices could be paid for by mining. Maybe the general bitcoin society has misunderstood.
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May 20, 2015, 11:35:22 PM
 #24688

New Poll:

TPTB_need_war is:

You realize that any "poll" like this is itself trolling right?

If you don't like his posts, ignore him.

Personally I think sometimes he adds value and sometimes he doesn't.
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May 20, 2015, 11:38:35 PM
 #24689

Users mining in algorithm where pools are impossible is positive for decentralization of mining.

This is an interesting question. I've seen the counterargument that preventing pools increases the incentive for large farms (including, I suppose, the distributed sort of farms that involve devices in disparate locations but centrally controlled). That might be negative for decentralization of mining broadly, since at least with pools as they mostly exist today, the actual miners can switch pools (often cypherdoc makes this argument). I'm not sure.



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May 20, 2015, 11:45:51 PM
 #24690

...
21's plan, as stated, is pure bullshit. The only question is whether they know it or not.

Let's do an order-of-magnitude calculation…

An article from Life Hacker reports that it costs about $0.50 to keep your phone charged-up for a year:



Now, my phone gets pretty warm when it's charging so the new mining chip can't draw that much more power.  But then again, a lot of times my phone is plugged in and already fully charged, and so the mining chip might as well be running.  So let's say that 21 Inc. can boost the yearly energy consumption of the typical smart phone from $0.50 to $3.00 before people start to complain about "hot phones."  $2.50 goes to mining bitcoins…

We'll also make the assumption that the cost to mine the bitcoins is exactly equal to the market value of the mined coins.  In reality, the first coins will probably be cheaper to mine, becoming progressively more expensive to mine as the network hash rate grows.  But for our order-of-magnitude calculation, we'll assume that $1 of BTC cost $1 of electricity to produce.  

At the current market value of ~$250 / BTC, this means that each phone will produce approximately

   ->  0.01 BTC per year, or
   -> 1,000,000 satoshis per year, or
   -> 83,000 satoshis per month, or
   -> 2,700 satoshis per day

For comparison purposes, note that the current dust limit is 540 satoshis.  This means that the amount of bitcoins generated by the phones is not insignificant (when compared to the dust limit) over time periods measured in days, weeks or months.  

…Let's go further…

The same Life Hacker article claims that:

Quote from: Life Hacker
Global smartphone shipments (which includes people upgrading to newer phones) will reach 567 million units [in 2012] alone.

Let's be ambitious and assume that eventually 21 Inc. chips will be included with 10% of the new smart phone shipped (~57 million phones).  The total bitcoins produced by these phones would then be

          57,000,000 x 0.01 BTC / year
    =   570,000 BTC / year

Or about 1560 BTC per day.  Since there's presently ~3600 BTC mined per day, these 57 million smartphones would contribute

        ~43% of the network hash rate.    

If 75% of these mining rewards flow back to 21 Inc and its partners, that works out to

         0.75 x 57,000,000 x $2.50 / year
  ~= $107,000,000 per year

This means that the expected revenue is not insignificant.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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May 20, 2015, 11:51:19 PM
 #24691

brilliant analysis peter. Smiley didnt realise that their plan would be that lucrative. would these chips not reduce the battery life of phones though?

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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May 20, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
 #24692

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32781244

edit: Sorry for posting this, just read it and it's incredibly stupid.

Let the author know https://twitter.com/pcoletti
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May 21, 2015, 12:03:31 AM
 #24693

would these chips not reduce the battery life of phones though?

Just guessing, but I'd imagine that the mining chip would only run at full power when the phone is fully-charged and plugged in.  At other times, and to conserve energy, the mining chip can be running at a slower clock speed or not running at all. 

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May 21, 2015, 12:20:30 AM
 #24694

would these chips not reduce the battery life of phones though?

Just guessing, but I'd imagine that the mining chip would only run at full power when the phone is fully-charged and plugged in.  At other times, and to conserve energy, the mining chip can be running at a slower clock speed or not running at all. 

i guess that means every night then, as i would think that over night is the most common charging period. this is pretty cool i have to say. Smiley with phones collecting near half the number of bitcoins mined, thats going to cut down supply drastically - more so come the next halving.

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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May 21, 2015, 12:38:41 AM
 #24695

ZH comments on Cypherdoc's fav chart
"It is very rare to see Dow Industrials hitting new highs as Dow Transports prints new range lows... one of them is wrong here..."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-20/one-these-things-not-other


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May 21, 2015, 12:40:12 AM
 #24696

...
21's plan, as stated, is pure bullshit. The only question is whether they know it or not.

Let's do an order-of-magnitude calculation…

An article from Life Hacker reports that it costs about $0.50 to keep your phone charged-up for a year:



Now, my phone gets pretty warm when it's charging so the new mining chip can't draw that much more power.  But then again, a lot of times my phone is plugged in and already fully charged, and so the mining chip might as well be running.  So let's say that 21 Inc. can boost the yearly energy consumption of the typical smart phone from $0.50 to $3.00 before people start to complain about "hot phones."  $2.50 goes to mining bitcoins…

We'll also make the assumption that the cost to mine the bitcoins is exactly equal to the market value of the mined coins.  In reality, the first coins will probably be cheaper to mine, becoming progressively more expensive to mine as the network hash rate grows.  But for our order-of-magnitude calculation, we'll assume that $1 of BTC cost $1 of electricity to produce.  

At the current market value of ~$250 / BTC, this means that each phone will produce approximately

   ->  0.01 BTC per year, or
   -> 1,000,000 satoshis per year, or
   -> 83,000 satoshis per month, or
   -> 2,700 satoshis per day

For comparison purposes, note that the current dust limit is 540 satoshis.  This means that the amount of bitcoins generated by the phones is not insignificant (when compared to the dust limit) over time periods measured in days, weeks or months.  

…Let's go further…

The same Life Hacker article claims that:

Quote from: Life Hacker
Global smartphone shipments (which includes people upgrading to newer phones) will reach 567 million units [in 2012] alone.

Let's be ambitious and assume that eventually 21 Inc. chips will be included with 10% of the new smart phone shipped (~57 million phones).  The total bitcoins produced by these phones would then be

          57,000,000 x 0.01 BTC / year
    =   570,000 BTC / year

Or about 1560 BTC per day.  Since there's presently ~3600 BTC mined per day, these 57 million smartphones would contribute

        ~43% of the network hash rate.    

If 75% of these mining rewards flow back to 21 Inc and its partners, that works out to

         0.75 x 57,000,000 x $2.50 / year
  ~= $107,000,000 per year

This means that the expected revenue is not insignificant.  

interesting analysis.

i'm amused by the guys here presuming that the 21 guys have not made a similar analysis.  in fact, i'm sure they've made a very extensive marketing and technical analysis.  Balaji and company are no slouches.  they are in a different category from your normal, shoestring startup with minimal capital.  Balaji is an established VC as are his cohorts.  he mentions this:

"towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies."

similarly, the list of investors includes alot of smart, analytical, successful people and companies.  they surely didn't just throw their money at this w/o any research.
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May 21, 2015, 12:51:31 AM
 #24697

i'm amused by the guys here presuming that the 21 guys have not made a similar analysis.  in fact, i'm sure they've made a very extensive marketing and technical analysis.  Balaji and company are no slouches.  they are in a different category from your normal, shoestring startup with minimal capital.  Balaji is an established VC as are his cohorts.  he mentions this:

"towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies."

similarly, the list of investors includes alot of smart, analytical, successful people and companies.  they surely didn't just throw their money at this w/o any research.

Vetting of a startup funding pitch always includes ensuring there is at least a plausible scenario for success, so it should be no surprise that these scenarios can be constructed. Weighing probabilities, on the other hand, is far subjective and not necessarily (in fact necessarily not) at the same level of rigor. I remain unconvinced that the valuation isn't out of whack. I most certainly would not take a piece of a $100 million funding round (which likely values the company closer to a billion) based on what we know now. There may be more we don't know, however.

It's nice to see actual numbers though, as opposed to a lot of OOMA statements about how the revenue flatly isn't significant.
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May 21, 2015, 12:56:37 AM
 #24698

...
21's plan, as stated, is pure bullshit. The only question is whether they know it or not.

Let's do an order-of-magnitude calculation…

An article from Life Hacker reports that it costs about $0.50 to keep your phone charged-up for a year:



Now, my phone gets pretty warm when it's charging so the new mining chip can't draw that much more power.  But then again, a lot of times my phone is plugged in and already fully charged, and so the mining chip might as well be running.  So let's say that 21 Inc. can boost the yearly energy consumption of the typical smart phone from $0.50 to $3.00 before people start to complain about "hot phones."  $2.50 goes to mining bitcoins…

We'll also make the assumption that the cost to mine the bitcoins is exactly equal to the market value of the mined coins.  In reality, the first coins will probably be cheaper to mine, becoming progressively more expensive to mine as the network hash rate grows.  But for our order-of-magnitude calculation, we'll assume that $1 of BTC cost $1 of electricity to produce.  

At the current market value of ~$250 / BTC, this means that each phone will produce approximately

   ->  0.01 BTC per year, or
   -> 1,000,000 satoshis per year, or
   -> 83,000 satoshis per month, or
   -> 2,700 satoshis per day

For comparison purposes, note that the current dust limit is 540 satoshis.  This means that the amount of bitcoins generated by the phones is not insignificant (when compared to the dust limit) over time periods measured in days, weeks or months.  

…Let's go further…

The same Life Hacker article claims that:

Quote from: Life Hacker
Global smartphone shipments (which includes people upgrading to newer phones) will reach 567 million units [in 2012] alone.

Let's be ambitious and assume that eventually 21 Inc. chips will be included with 10% of the new smart phone shipped (~57 million phones).  The total bitcoins produced by these phones would then be

          57,000,000 x 0.01 BTC / year
    =   570,000 BTC / year

Or about 1560 BTC per day.  Since there's presently ~3600 BTC mined per day, these 57 million smartphones would contribute

        ~43% of the network hash rate.    

If 75% of these mining rewards flow back to 21 Inc and its partners, that works out to

         0.75 x 57,000,000 x $2.50 / year
  ~= $107,000,000 per year

This means that the expected revenue is not insignificant.  

interesting analysis.

i'm amused by the guys here presuming that the 21 guys have not made a similar analysis.  in fact, i'm sure they've made a very extensive marketing and technical analysis.  Balaji and company are no slouches.  they are in a different category from your normal, shoestring startup with minimal capital.  Balaji is an established VC as are his cohorts.  he mentions this:

"towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies."

similarly, the list of investors includes alot of smart, analytical, successful people and companies.  they surely didn't just throw their money at this w/o any research.

The analyzis is flawed, in that it does not take into account all cost. The price of mining a bitcoin tends to approach the price of a bitcoin, so the question is rather is 21's approach equal to or better than large scale mining. If you suppose the chip is free, the design is free, the electricity is free and the management of the device for the mining purpose is free, then it can compete. But none of those things are free.
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May 21, 2015, 12:58:36 AM
 #24699

i'm amused by the guys here presuming that the 21 guys have not made a similar analysis.  in fact, i'm sure they've made a very extensive marketing and technical analysis.  Balaji and company are no slouches.  they are in a different category from your normal, shoestring startup with minimal capital.  Balaji is an established VC as are his cohorts.  he mentions this:

"towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies."

similarly, the list of investors includes alot of smart, analytical, successful people and companies.  they surely didn't just throw their money at this w/o any research.

Vetting of a startup funding pitch always includes ensuring there is at least a plausible scenario for success, so it should be no surprise that these scenarios can be constructed. Weighing probabilities, on the other hand, is far subjective and not necessarily (in fact necessarily not) at the same level of rigor. I remain unconvinced that the valuation isn't out of whack. I most certainly would not take a piece of a $100 million funding round (which likely values the company closer to a billion) based on what we know now. There may be more we don't know, however.

It's nice to see actual numbers though, as opposed to a lot of OOMA statements about how the revenue flatly isn't significant.

but this isn't your average startup.

this is a company comprised of pre-existing industry leaders and companies that clearly are trying to change an industry.
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May 21, 2015, 01:02:14 AM
 #24700

i'm amused by the guys here presuming that the 21 guys have not made a similar analysis.  in fact, i'm sure they've made a very extensive marketing and technical analysis.  Balaji and company are no slouches.  they are in a different category from your normal, shoestring startup with minimal capital.  Balaji is an established VC as are his cohorts.  he mentions this:

"towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies."

similarly, the list of investors includes alot of smart, analytical, successful people and companies.  they surely didn't just throw their money at this w/o any research.

Vetting of a startup funding pitch always includes ensuring there is at least a plausible scenario for success, so it should be no surprise that these scenarios can be constructed. Weighing probabilities, on the other hand, is far subjective and not necessarily (in fact necessarily not) at the same level of rigor. I remain unconvinced that the valuation isn't out of whack. I most certainly would not take a piece of a $100 million funding round (which likely values the company closer to a billion) based on what we know now. There may be more we don't know, however.

It's nice to see actual numbers though, as opposed to a lot of OOMA statements about how the revenue flatly isn't significant.

but this isn't your average startup.

this is a company comprised of pre-existing industry leaders and companies that clearly are trying to change an industry.

I've been around the scene a bit. Their team and backers make the cut, but pretty much every well funded startup looks like that. There are a lot of MIT, Stanford, CMU, etc. PhD. and second-time entrepreneurs around. A whole lot.

That valuation at their stage is out of line, even considering the team (again with the caveat that we don't know everything). VC's most certainly do screw up and burn money on big deals. Often it's the most impressive startups that encourage overpaying (what idiot would overpay for a bunch of amateurs?).
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