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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808049 times)
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 06, 2013, 06:14:13 AM
 #6321

One thing that occured to me recently is that Bitcoin is a government. Not a coercive central monopoly government, but a system of laws. These laws are not just strictly enforced, they are absolutely unbreakable. You cannot commit a "crime" in Bitcoinland, so no criminal justice system - no police or courts - are needed. No legislature is needed because the laws never change.
It just occurred to me that dating is rape. Not the type where one party does not consent, but a mutually beneficial and agreed-upon interaction. No force or threats are needed, because both parties are in agreement. Dating is a vastly superior form of rape.

Rape has a negative connotation, but government (the word itself, meaning a system of laws) doesn't. Rape is always bad; government - or if you prefer, governance - is only bad if it is centralized.

I used the term government deliberately here, both to maximize the contrasts at play and to be more accessible to those not famliar with ancap-style arguments.
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justusranvier
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November 06, 2013, 06:17:36 AM
 #6322

Rape has a negative connotation, but government (the word itself, meaning a system of laws) doesn't. Rape is always bad; government (or if you prefer, governance) is only bad if it is centralized.
Not at all.

Rape and consensual sex are the exact same physical action, the only difference being the consent.

Government is different from all form of voluntary interactions between humans exactly because it is not voluntary. Government is one group of people using force and threats to impose their will on another group of people.

We have other words to describe the kinds of interactions that happen between willing participants, and none of those words are "government".
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 06, 2013, 06:29:26 AM
 #6323

Voluntarism doesn't aim at a society without force, only a society without "unjustified" force. That is governance.

The key difference isn't lack of force, but lack of centralized (monopoly) control of force. The axis that matters isn't voluntary vs. involuntary, which is just a word game as everyone will define "voluntary" and "coercive" differently, but instead centralized vs. decentralized. The fact that decentralized systems end up comporting more with libertarian ideals is not a result of people arguing for libertarian ideals, but instead a testament to the sensibility and workability of those ideals. 
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November 06, 2013, 07:16:59 AM
 #6324

Rape has a negative connotation, but government (the word itself, meaning a system of laws) doesn't. Rape is always bad; government (or if you prefer, governance) is only bad if it is centralized.
Not at all.

Rape and consensual sex are the exact same physical action, the only difference being the consent.

Government is different from all form of voluntary interactions between humans exactly because it is not voluntary. Government is one group of people using force and threats to impose their will on another group of people.

We have other words to describe the kinds of interactions that happen between willing participants, and none of those words are "government".

I use the 'threat of force' against moochers who try to utilize stuff I paid for (like my driveway) without taking part in it's creation and maintenance.  In my case, it takes the form of a 12 gauge shotgun shell fired into the air.  When twisted around the right way, 'violence' is more commonly employed than not.  It's how the world works.  What's the big deal?


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November 07, 2013, 03:30:37 AM
 #6325

think of it this way.

the Gold Bull got going back in 2000 at a price of $250.  look where it went.

the current BTC price is only $275.  and we've just gotten started.
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November 07, 2013, 04:12:20 AM
 #6326

Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin UP.
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November 07, 2013, 04:45:37 AM
 #6327

Interesting points, miscreanity.

One thing that occured to me recently is that Bitcoin is a government. Not a coercive central monopoly government, but a system of laws. These laws are not just strictly enforced, they are absolutely unbreakable. You cannot commit a "crime" in Bitcoinland, so no criminal justice system - no police or courts - are needed. No legislature is needed because the laws never change.

What you can do is leave Bitcoinland, by not participating, by not accepting BTC as payment, by not putting your savings in BTC or using bitcoins to buy things. Unlike nation-states, though, you can opt out of Bitcoinland's governance without moving away from your current location. You can "exit in place."

Bitcoin is therefore a non-territorial government, also known as a panarchy or civil association - a "club"-style government where you can opt in and out as you please, to the extent you please, and you can be in more than one such "club." While and insofar as you participate in Bitcoin, you are bound by the laws of the protocol (the Constitution, as it were).

Let's stop and appreciate the amazing advantages of Bitcoin law compared with traditional types of law:

1) Bitcoin law is non-coercive; it is entirely opt-in
2) Bitcoin law is unbreakable and requires no enforcement or adjudication or prison system
3) Bitcoin law is truly democratic in the original sense of "power to the people," not by the power of voice (voting) but by the power of exit (forking, or non-participation)
4) 1+3 means there is no such thing as "tyranny of the majority" in Bitcoin, unlike in a classical democracy

Yet Bitcoin is only one aspect of our lives; it (so far) only covers the financial sphere. It is a government in that it governs our financial dealings to whatever extent we want it to, but it is not a complete government because there is much it doesn't cover: physical harm, fraud, contract law, torts, etc. There are some things that can and are being built on top of the Bitcoin protocol, like colored coins and Mastercoin (additional opt-in governments that you can freely participate in in addition to your participation in Bitcoin), that can handle some of these things.

It will be up to us to devise other intelligent systems that utilize social incentives to attract people into effective and favorable legal structures - of which Bitcoin is one example. Perhaps private courts operating through reputational structures that have yet to be designed. Perhaps even criminal law could be handled by such courts, but for that I leave the argument to Hasnas, Friedman, Rothbard, and others (see The Enterprise of Law, edited by Bruce Benson).

But there is something of still more immediate relevance: not just building the essential features of decentralized governance, which will be a great challenge and take many years, but providing avenues to opt out of centrally monopolized aspects of society that are now still largely central-government-controlled: information/news, education, scientific funding, assistance for the less fortunate, standards, banking, and of course money itself.

Central government doesn't need to provide education, but it does (even private schools are heavily influenced by government funding, etc.). Now the Internet is providing a VASTLY superior alternative, in every conceivable way: veracity, efficacy, cost, accessibility, lack of bias, and encouragement of actual critical thinking rather than status games.

Central government doesn't need to provide information, but it does (even independent news networks develop close ties with government and know who butters their bread, not to mention government regulations raising the barrier to entry for media organizations, inducing a centralizing effect). Now the Internet is providing a VASTLY superior alternative, in every conceivable way: veracity, speed, presence of debate, lack of bias (because many sources), cost, and accessibility.

Central government doesn't need to give money to the less fortunate, but it does (even private charities are heavily influenced by tax breaks and people's biases and economic ignorance due to centralized education and media). Now the Internet and Bitcoin are enabling a VASTLY superior alternative, in every conceivable way: fairness (not coerced from others), efficacy, cost (not mostly lost in a bloated bureaucracy), speed, focus, and degree of actual betterment of circumstances. Here I speak not only of crowdsourced donations and private charities, but also of the lightning efficiency of a free market at bringing down price levels, thereby making people way less poor. Not to mention that everyone who participates gets wealthier each year by leaps and bounds.

Bitcoin is a vastly superior alternative government, and there already are other such alternatives with more coming, and I contend that the future of how to effect social change will be largely about creating systems like Bitcoin that change the groundrules that are available for people to work within.  

yes, I had to quote the whole thing in it's entirety. It's the best thing I've read in weeks.

The "voluntarism" aspect never really struck me before, but it seems to be absolutely true in the case of bitcoin. Bitcoin only exists because we give it power (or value). The same should be true of governments,

alas, this is not the case.

"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
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November 07, 2013, 06:01:52 AM
 #6328

Gold collapsing. Bitcoin and Litecoin  Grin up.

Sorry, I know this thread is for gold and BTC, but... it's like people just all of a sudden remembered "Oh yeah... LTC exists." Having hovered well over $4 USD/LTC in April of this year, well, now it's back up to $3.94 last I checked. Quite a recovery there.
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November 07, 2013, 06:55:27 AM
 #6329

Gold collapsing. Bitcoin and Litecoin  Grin up.

Sorry, I know this thread is for gold and BTC, but... it's like people just all of a sudden remembered "Oh yeah... LTC exists." Having hovered well over $4 USD/LTC in April of this year, well, now it's back up to $3.94 last I checked. Quite a recovery there.



Ah, Litecoin, the redheaded step child of Bitcoin....

Will it ever increase significantly? It seems people always converting it to BTC no matter what.

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses. Psalm 20. 7
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Wekkel
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November 07, 2013, 06:56:52 AM
 #6330

Litecoin is doing great. Devs are very active and have a good working relationship with the Bitcoin devs. Litecoin adoption is slowly but steady increasing. It will have its moment of fame.

Like this post? you can tip me (BTC) 1LGi2DMhectdFSkBid5srrnHk8WHgD3V1d or very WoW (Doge) D9p6FZQb1sKkq9hApy4tnjSduYfdnc74bb
AndrewWilliams
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November 07, 2013, 07:07:25 AM
 #6331


well it went from 5 cents to $4 in like what 7 months?

is that "significant" for you?

it sure was significant for me...


Thanks for the input.

I did not know that, and in fact, it is very interesting. Perhaps Litecoin is Bitcoin 1-2 years ago, and will start leaping like Bitcoin did.... to $60, then $120, and finally $250 like it is now.

Litecoin= Bitcoin .... delayed?

If so, I would love to get in at these prices knowing such projections are attainable.

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses. Psalm 20. 7
1FMReuQSiwqM539ymHwLNdUPqUno4TfWka
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November 07, 2013, 07:08:25 AM
 #6332

I will always put some money into LTC just to keep it afloat.

You can't exchange BTC for fiats without giving out your identities, and nobody will exchange BTC for BTC, but exchanging a crypto for another is an entirely plausible defense for putting your BTC into a "mixing" wallet.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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November 07, 2013, 07:11:19 AM
 #6333

I will always put some money into LTC just to keep it afloat.

You can't exchange BTC for fiats without giving out your identities, and nobody will exchange BTC for BTC, but exchanging a crypto for another is an entirely plausible defense for putting your BTC into a "mixing" wallet.
+1
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November 07, 2013, 08:21:17 AM
 #6334

Cypherdoc used to talk about adoption driven by price rise, now with the price rising, I am starting to see how this could make sense, in a new way.

I am inspired by the Oz Tomcar company which recently started accepting Bitcoin, the reasoning being: a lot of merchants will conclude from the price performance of Bitcoin, that there must be quite a few people getting rich with their Bitcoins out there, and want to cater to their needs(even one single order could be big for them!), this, combined with the fact that the setting up for accepting Bitcoin costs only trivially, and the potential publicity brought by such a move, could motivate lots of merchants to jump in the bandwagon.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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November 07, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
 #6335

this....is....SPARTA
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November 07, 2013, 09:49:43 AM
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Entering Stage 1 of the next logarithmic jump.
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November 07, 2013, 09:51:02 AM
 #6337

Please, I need the picture of the guy hugginng the huge chunk of gold now. Cheesy

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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November 07, 2013, 09:59:29 AM
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Please, I need the picture of the guy hugginng the huge chunk of gold now. Cheesy

Your wish is my command.

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November 07, 2013, 10:02:44 AM
 #6339


well it went from 5 cents to $4 in like what 7 months?

is that "significant" for you?

it sure was significant for me...


Thanks for the input.

I did not know that, and in fact, it is very interesting. Perhaps Litecoin is Bitcoin 1-2 years ago, and will start leaping like Bitcoin did.... to $60, then $120, and finally $250 like it is now.

Litecoin= Bitcoin .... delayed?

If so, I would love to get in at these prices knowing such projections are attainable.

Unlikely I think but please also not the maximum number of LTC will be 84 M (versus Bitcoin's 21 M)

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November 07, 2013, 11:29:17 AM
 #6340

It is the second mover and the first non-premined coin with a different algorithm.

What's the value of silver when gold exists? (excluding industrial use)

Disclosure: the amount of LTC I hold is very very limited, $25 worth or something.

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