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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805113 times)
oakpacific
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November 27, 2013, 09:08:58 AM
 #6821


i dont trust the govt.


Me neither. Before Bitcoin I had no way of acting on that however and I had no choice. Now I'm pretty well hedged with my Bitcoin holdings.

Then again, pretty soon I'm going to have to report my assets to the IRS. Paying tax isn't nice but okay. The worst part is that they know what I have. What if they pull on me what the US pulled on Gold owners in 1933?

Maybe just cash out a small portion and tell them it's all you have?

I'm not planning to cash out all (I have to report market value).

Reporting less than I have would be tax evasion. Don't you think that's something I'll come to regret?


I am not a tax lawyer, but if I were you, I would report everything I would ever consider to sell and thus move into the fiat money system, but claim to have lost the keys to the rest, assuming the taxmen are not silly enough to think that charging me something roughly equivalent to the market fiat value of those bitcoins would make sense.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. EWallets are like banks -- a central organization has complete control over your money. You shouldn't put much money in EWallets.
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oakpacific
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November 27, 2013, 09:12:14 AM
 #6822

We reached LTC:Silver ozt parity before BTC:gold.

LTC trading for $21.38 on BTC-e and silver $19.97.

Embarrasing for BTC!


Are you bloody kidding me? Ugh. Be careful what you wish for, people.

More than one very successful (from a market-cap perspective) crypto will ultimately devalue them all, if there are no material technical distinctions.

I get in twitter fights with gold-bugs and their ilk all the time, and the best leg they have to stand on (and my only lingering long-term hesitation about bitcoin, for that matter) is the alt-coin argument. I have to lean on "network effects" and "first-mover advantage" arguments to defend bitcoin's market-cap and longevity in this light, and strong non-distinct alts will break that argument.

That said, bitcoin has risen almost 10x recently, and litecoin is catching up to keep its old multiple (~1/40), so that's fine, but much more, and we start to have empirical issues that invalidate important theory.
That's one of those issues bitcoin will have to deal with if it is to truly succeed.  It's a fact that it's easily duplicated and therefore isn't as scarce as some proponents like to prophesize.  How the market handles that will determine the future of cryptos in general.  Just like gold cryptos are an outlet for the current developed world government malaise called modern finance.  That may last a long while or it may come to a spectacular end much faster.  If governments are forced by circumstances and citizens to get their act together the need for bitcoin or other cryptos may not be as great as it is now.

Simple duplicates will not take off, without a powerful network behind it it makes as much sense to buy it as it is to buy Zimbabwean dollars.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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November 27, 2013, 09:44:29 AM
 #6823

Wasn't the same argument made when litecoin came out.  I don't think anyone is going to launch an exact copy.  All will or currently have variations on the bitcoin idea.  And we haven't even had a single major corp or government try to do a coin of their own.  What happens if Google or Facebook does a coin.  They've experimented with their own sort of money before but it didn't take off possibly because people inherently saw it as easily manipulated but under a guise of a crypto how fast do you think googlecoin would spread?
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November 27, 2013, 10:00:36 AM
 #6824


...
That's one of those issues bitcoin will have to deal with if it is to truly succeed.  It's a fact that it's easily duplicated and therefore isn't as scarce as some proponents like to prophesize.  How the market handles that will determine the future of cryptos in general. 
...



Well, we do have one set of long-standing empirical evidence for how markets treat these things: The precious metals market. Gold, Silver, Platinum, and possibly several other metals share many of the qualities that would make them able to be decent money (in pre-electonic times). Yet gold's premium to industrial-value and total "market-cap" is huge. Silver is just as old and scarce (more scarce actually, right?), but gold is the clear leader, by roughly two orders of magnitude, in the monetary-metals space. So at least in the scarce-metals with similar properties domain, the market chose just one for overwhelming dominance.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
oakpacific
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November 27, 2013, 10:03:29 AM
 #6825

Wasn't the same argument made when litecoin came out.  I don't think anyone is going to launch an exact copy.

You pretty much said it yourself(except that we have several exact clones already). each coin has its unique features, and is thus uniquely useful in someways, unlike fiats, the success of one doesn't exclude the success of another.

Quote
  All will or currently have variations on the bitcoin idea.  And we haven't even had a single major corp or government try to do a coin of their own.  What happens if Google or Facebook does a coin.  They've experimented with their own sort of money before but it didn't take off possibly because people inherently saw it as easily manipulated but under a guise of a crypto how fast do you think googlecoin would spread?

Governments will either do it half-heartedly to prop the fiat scam further(which will fool no one and unlikely to be taken seriously), or if they abandon fiats for cryptos, then it's already "mission accomplished" for us.

About corporations, it has to benefit them in some ways to do so, if they release an open source coin which is decentralized and they have no control, it's entirely possible Bitcoin will incorporate its best attributes and evolve, if they want to take the burden of running and supporting it....well, they are looking for troubles to be honest.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 27, 2013, 10:49:26 AM
 #6826

Don't think alt-coins, think alt-ledgers. Then it becomes obvious why altcoins aren't to be feared and there is no significant inflation. There are purposes for alternative ledgers, but they are fairly limited, and you only need one or two for most conceivable uses. The only ones that survive will be those that enhance Bitcoin in some way, such as by providing better mixing for bitcoins or helping with arbitrage.

Bitcoin is the company that makes the holodecks, and Litecoin is the company that manages the jizzmoppers. Jizzmopping is a valuable service, but its value is limited and always subservient to holodeck creation. So stock in either one should do well in percentage terms over the long term, unless of course the jizzmopper management firm is replaced by a better one.
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November 27, 2013, 11:37:31 AM
 #6827


i dont trust the govt.


Me neither. Before Bitcoin I had no way of acting on that however and I had no choice. Now I'm pretty well hedged with my Bitcoin holdings.

Then again, pretty soon I'm going to have to report my assets to the IRS. Paying tax isn't nice but okay. The worst part is that they know what I have. What if they pull on me what the US pulled on Gold owners in 1933?

Maybe just cash out a small portion and tell them it's all you have?

I'm not planning to cash out all (I have to report market value).

Reporting less than I have would be tax evasion. Don't you think that's something I'll come to regret?


I am not a tax lawyer, but if I were you, I would report everything I would ever consider to sell and thus move into the fiat money system, but claim to have lost the keys to the rest, assuming the taxmen are not silly enough to think that charging me something roughly equivalent to the market fiat value of those bitcoins would make sense.

im not a tax lawyer either. However (in the UK) if i haven't "cashed out" BTC then there is no capital gain to be taxed. Unless I am hugely mistaken!



Most assets are liable to Capital Gains Tax when you sell or dispose of them.

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November 27, 2013, 12:49:12 PM
 #6828


i dont trust the govt.


Me neither. Before Bitcoin I had no way of acting on that however and I had no choice. Now I'm pretty well hedged with my Bitcoin holdings.

Then again, pretty soon I'm going to have to report my assets to the IRS. Paying tax isn't nice but okay. The worst part is that they know what I have. What if they pull on me what the US pulled on Gold owners in 1933?

Maybe just cash out a small portion and tell them it's all you have?

I'm not planning to cash out all (I have to report market value).

Reporting less than I have would be tax evasion. Don't you think that's something I'll come to regret?


I am not a tax lawyer, but if I were you, I would report everything I would ever consider to sell and thus move into the fiat money system, but claim to have lost the keys to the rest, assuming the taxmen are not silly enough to think that charging me something roughly equivalent to the market fiat value of those bitcoins would make sense.

im not a tax lawyer either. However (in the UK) if i haven't "cashed out" BTC then there is no capital gain to be taxed. Unless I am hugely mistaken!



Not all countries use the same wealth tax structure. The Dutch law requires you to report all your assets on January 1st of each year and pay 1.2% (30% tax on a 4% hypothetical yield) on it. If you own a house this is excluded (for fucked up unfair reasons). You are allowed to subtract foreign paid other forms of wealth tax (such as foreign dividend-tax).

So exchanging Bitcoins for fiat or not is a non-issue. If my wealth goes up sufficiently and the Dutch system becomes too much of a hassle, Germany is close by Wink (I dislike the language though)

oakpacific
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November 27, 2013, 12:51:12 PM
 #6829


i dont trust the govt.


Me neither. Before Bitcoin I had no way of acting on that however and I had no choice. Now I'm pretty well hedged with my Bitcoin holdings.

Then again, pretty soon I'm going to have to report my assets to the IRS. Paying tax isn't nice but okay. The worst part is that they know what I have. What if they pull on me what the US pulled on Gold owners in 1933?

Maybe just cash out a small portion and tell them it's all you have?

I'm not planning to cash out all (I have to report market value).

Reporting less than I have would be tax evasion. Don't you think that's something I'll come to regret?


I am not a tax lawyer, but if I were you, I would report everything I would ever consider to sell and thus move into the fiat money system, but claim to have lost the keys to the rest, assuming the taxmen are not silly enough to think that charging me something roughly equivalent to the market fiat value of those bitcoins would make sense.

im not a tax lawyer either. However (in the UK) if i haven't "cashed out" BTC then there is no capital gain to be taxed. Unless I am hugely mistaken!



Most assets are liable to Capital Gains Tax when you sell or dispose of them.


He is not worried about taxation on his unsold coins, he is worried that IRS may either hold him liable for underreporting his bitcoin holding or acquire the knowledge of the size of his holding, should he chooses to be honest with them, in which case the danger of being forced to turn over his entire holding cannot be ruled out in a 1933-ish "executive order 6102" scenario.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
oakpacific
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November 27, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
 #6830


i dont trust the govt.


Me neither. Before Bitcoin I had no way of acting on that however and I had no choice. Now I'm pretty well hedged with my Bitcoin holdings.

Then again, pretty soon I'm going to have to report my assets to the IRS. Paying tax isn't nice but okay. The worst part is that they know what I have. What if they pull on me what the US pulled on Gold owners in 1933?

Maybe just cash out a small portion and tell them it's all you have?

I'm not planning to cash out all (I have to report market value).

Reporting less than I have would be tax evasion. Don't you think that's something I'll come to regret?


I am not a tax lawyer, but if I were you, I would report everything I would ever consider to sell and thus move into the fiat money system, but claim to have lost the keys to the rest, assuming the taxmen are not silly enough to think that charging me something roughly equivalent to the market fiat value of those bitcoins would make sense.

im not a tax lawyer either. However (in the UK) if i haven't "cashed out" BTC then there is no capital gain to be taxed. Unless I am hugely mistaken!



Not all countries use the same wealth tax structure. The Dutch law requires you to report all your assets on January 1st of each year and pay 1.2% (30% tax on a 4% hypothetical yield) on it. If you own a house this is excluded (for fucked up unfair reasons). You are allowed to subtract foreign paid other forms of wealth tax (such as foreign dividend-tax).

So exchanging Bitcoins for fiat or not is a non-issue. If my wealth goes up sufficiently and the Dutch system becomes too much of a hassle, Germany is close by Wink (I dislike the language though)

Oops, so you live in Europe?  Apologize for assming you are an American, otherwise I see no reason why you brought up executive order 6102.

The Dutch system, if true, is completely nuts should I say. There is no guarantee on the outcome of an investment, all of your hypothetical values could possibly be wiped out overnight, even for no reason other than you selling your assets to pay the tax, you can't just tax people like that.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
wachtwoord
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November 27, 2013, 12:57:03 PM
 #6831

He is not worried about taxation on his unsold coins, he is worried that IRS may either hold him liable for underreporting his bitcoin holding or acquire the knowledge of the size of his holding, should he chooses to be honest with them, in which case the danger of being forced to turn over his entire holding cannot be ruled out in a 1933-ish "executive order 6102" scenario.

Indeed. I might be getting paranoid however. What is the common consensus?

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November 27, 2013, 12:59:47 PM
 #6832

Oops, so you live in Europe?  Apologize for assming you are an American, otherwise I see no reason why you brought up executive order 6102.

The Dutch system, if true, is completely nuts should I say. There is no guarantee on the outcome of an investment, all of your hypothetical values could possibly be wiped out overnight, you can't just tax people like that.

Nuts? I can easily beat 4% yearly long term so it's one of the few Dutch taxation that is actually not that expensive (we pay >50% income tax Smiley). I much prefer it over the US system, much cheaper.

And concerning the 6102. If the US did it, don't you think even more socialistic governments (such as the Dutch government) could easily be able to do this as well?

They'll just say: "We have a financial crisis. The strongest shoulders should carry the biggest load and these people just got lucky gambling". Last year they did an 16% EXTRA (so above normal taxes) "ONE TIME" crisis tax on all income above 150000 Euro. (And they will repeat it this year I'm sure).

Lewis2
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November 27, 2013, 01:06:18 PM
 #6833


i dont trust the govt.


Me neither. Before Bitcoin I had no way of acting on that however and I had no choice. Now I'm pretty well hedged with my Bitcoin holdings.

Then again, pretty soon I'm going to have to report my assets to the IRS. Paying tax isn't nice but okay. The worst part is that they know what I have. What if they pull on me what the US pulled on Gold owners in 1933?

Maybe just cash out a small portion and tell them it's all you have?

I'm not planning to cash out all (I have to report market value).

Reporting less than I have would be tax evasion. Don't you think that's something I'll come to regret?


I am not a tax lawyer, but if I were you, I would report everything I would ever consider to sell and thus move into the fiat money system, but claim to have lost the keys to the rest, assuming the taxmen are not silly enough to think that charging me something roughly equivalent to the market fiat value of those bitcoins would make sense.

im not a tax lawyer either. However (in the UK) if i haven't "cashed out" BTC then there is no capital gain to be taxed. Unless I am hugely mistaken!



Not all countries use the same wealth tax structure. The Dutch law requires you to report all your assets on January 1st of each year and pay 1.2% (30% tax on a 4% hypothetical yield) on it. If you own a house this is excluded (for fucked up unfair reasons). You are allowed to subtract foreign paid other forms of wealth tax (such as foreign dividend-tax).

So exchanging Bitcoins for fiat or not is a non-issue. If my wealth goes up sufficiently and the Dutch system becomes too much of a hassle, Germany is close by Wink (I dislike the language though)

Move to Curacao, really nice tax structures if you bring enough money and great weather.

wachtwoord
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November 27, 2013, 01:08:55 PM
 #6834

Move to Curacao, really nice tax structures if you bring enough money and great weather.

What? Curacao is part of the Netherlands They have a different tax structure? :|

Lewis2
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November 27, 2013, 01:18:59 PM
 #6835

There used to be a 'pensionado' structures. It used to be bring something like $300,000.- and hire somebody for cleaning etc. and you pay no vermogensbelasting. There is also something about having to live their half of the year. Still a big tax haven, lot of 2m² offices with a phone and fax.

Not sure what the current rules are. I am no tax expert but have spent some time there. Deffinitely worth looking into if you push serious money around.

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November 27, 2013, 01:22:32 PM
 #6836

There used to be a 'pensionado' structures. It used to be bring something like $300,000.- and hire somebody for cleaning etc. and you pay no vermogensbelasting. There is also something about having to live their half of the year. Still a big tax haven, lot of 2m² offices with a phone and fax.

Not sure what the current rules are. I am no tax expert but have spent some time there. Deffinitely worth looking into if you push serious money around.

I just blindly assumed the rules were the same as in the Netherlands. Most my first Google queries fetched was that it's a tax haven for companies particularly.

For low income taxes you shouldn't go their either (just barely below the outrageous Dutch ones). But then again, I want to do without income at some point anyway. (working is tiring Wink) .

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into it when I get wealthy enough to be a tax exile Smiley

Edit:

Ah not useful anymore: http://pensionado-curacao.info/fiscaliteit.htm

Quote

Hij of zij:
·    dient over een geldige verblijfsvergunning te beschikken;
·    dient voor eigen gebruik op Curaçao een woning in eigendom onverhuurd ter beschikking te hebben met een waarde van minstens ANG 450.000,= op het tijdstip van verkrijging;
·    dient direct voorafgaande aan het jaar waarin hij zich op Curaçao vestigt voor een aaneengesloten periode van vijf jaren in het buitenland woonachtig te zijn geweest;
·    dient op het moment van inschrijving in het bevolkingsregister de leeftijd van 50 jaar te hebben bereikt;
·    dient zich binnen twee maanden na inschrijving in het bevolkingsregister bij de bevoegde Inspecteur der Belastingen te hebben aangemeld als belastingplichtige die in aanmerking wil komen voor toepassing van de regeling;
·    dient binnen 18 maanden na inschrijving in het bevolkingsregister een woning in eigen gebruik ter beschikking te hebben.

You have to be over 50, own a house of ~186500 Euro, haven't lived in the Netherlands for 5 years and have a valid residence permit.

And still you have to pay 10% dividend tax and 10% on interest received (but that seems to be all wealth tax). I'll check again in 20 year Wink

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November 27, 2013, 03:19:27 PM
 #6837

Gold, here we come.
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November 27, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
 #6838

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, nasdaq=3055, Bitcoin=5.4):
Bitcoin is 1030.00 (5792.00 btcChina in USD).  Gold is 1269.00.  Nasdaq is 3983.00
Bitcoin: 18974.07% (107159.26%)
Gold:    -24.91%
Nasdaq:  30.38%
Gold Diff:  25302% advantage Bitcoin
Nasdaq Diff:  14530% advantage Bitcoin
oakpacific
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November 27, 2013, 04:27:59 PM
 #6839

Since we have quite a few ex-PM bugs here, can you guys please make an estimation of the percentage of gold/silver used as currency to those used for other purposes?

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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November 27, 2013, 04:31:37 PM
 #6840

Since we have quite a few ex-PM bugs here, can you guys please make an estimation of the percentage of gold/silver used as currency to those used for other purposes?

Store of value of gold must be >99% I would say. Silver is different.

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