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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022643 times)
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 19, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
 #6581

Well anarchy is matter of timescale. It's true that if things happen too fast it can be bad, but I think there are natural limitations that act as brakes. Think Bitcoin infrastructure.

A characteristic of natural orders - whether they be rainforests, customary legal systems, or markets - is that they start out very precarious but become very powerful and balanced as time goes on, as structural relationships are developed and negotiated, as trial and error runs its course, as evolution and natural selection happen. But in the digital age this can happen extremely quickly.

I'm not worried about traditional banking and monetary authority losing its grip too fast, because that will take several years at least and I just don't think they actually provide real stability anyway - if anything they cause chaos with their market interventions. I trust Bitcoin's antifragility more than rigid central planning.

What I think about whitelisting is I'd like to see it tried and fail for distraction purposes just because right now, this coming year or so, feels like a crucial time for Bitcoin adoption. I could see it either being banned or regulated into obscurity in the US, only to roar back again massively in a few years after gestating overseas, or not being banned or overly regulated and taking a more direct, faster path into the mainstream. I prefer the faster path.

Basically anything for the "by the time they know what hit 'em it'll be too late" dynamic to happen.

Optimistically speaking, it may already be too late. Bitcoin may be so compelling on an individual level for both the virtuous and the rats in government and financial circles that they know they have to get in. Then they're on Team BTC.
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November 19, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
 #6582

Well anarchy is matter of timescale. It's true that if things happen too fast it can be bad, but I think there are natural limitations that act as brakes. Think Bitcoin infrastructure.

A characteristic of natural orders - whether they be rainforests, customary legal systems, or markets - is that they start out very precarious but become very powerful and balanced as time goes on, as structural relationships are developed and negotiated, as trial and error runs its course, as evolution and natural selection happen. But in the digital age this can happen extremely quickly.

I'm not worried about traditional banking and monetary authority losing its grip too fast, because that will take several years at least and I just don't think they actually provide real stability anyway - if anything they cause chaos with their market interventions. I trust Bitcoin's antifragility more than rigid central planning.

What I think about whitelisting is I'd like to see it tried and fail for distraction purposes just because right now, this coming year or so, feels like a crucial time for Bitcoin adoption. I could see it either being banned or regulated into obscurity in the US, only to roar back again massively in a few years after gestating overseas, or not being banned or overly regulated and taking a more direct, faster path into the mainstream. I prefer the faster path.

Basically anything for the "by the time they know what hit 'em it'll be too late" dynamic to happen.

Optimistically speaking, it may already be too late. Bitcoin may be so compelling on an individual level for both the virtuous and the rats in government and financial circles that they know they have to get in. Then they're on Team BTC.

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 19, 2013, 04:56:44 PM
 #6583

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.
AndrewWilliams
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November 19, 2013, 05:03:59 PM
 #6584

Always prepare for the worst case scenario.

Prepare for them to try and regulate Bitcoin to death.

Bitcoin tax, Bitcoin licenses, Bitcoin registration... augh I already have a headache.
jojo69
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November 19, 2013, 05:15:30 PM
 #6585

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

This is not some pseudoeconomic post-modern Libertarian cult, it's an un-led, crowd-sourced mega startup organized around mutual self-interest where problems, whether of the theoretical or purely practical variety, are treated as temporary and, ultimately, solvable.
Censorship of e-gold was easy. Censorship of Bitcoin will be… entertaining.
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November 19, 2013, 05:31:22 PM
 #6586

Optimistically speaking, it may already be too late. Bitcoin may be so compelling on an individual level for both the virtuous and the rats in government and financial circles that they know they have to get in. Then they're on Team BTC.

yes, YES! Bitcoin will make closet sound money advocates and anarchists out of all the government officials and bankers! I like that idea.  Grin

Somebody here said that Bitcoin is like a blob. You hit it and it assimilates you. I like that much more than the "Bitcoin is a Honey Badger" meme.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 19, 2013, 05:34:55 PM
 #6587

Quote
Somebody here said that Bitcoin is like a blob. You hit it and it assimilates you.

That was me Grin
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November 19, 2013, 05:38:20 PM
 #6588

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.

that is the pessimistic view.  i was meaning to comment on this given i think that miscreanity is also guilty of this.  which is precisely why he missed the speed of how fast this is all happening.  in his case, i know where he came from so i give him a pass.  you, otoh, sound like you were born and raised here in the good 'ol US of A.  

one of the major problems around these parts, especially amongst the geeks, is that they are highly suspicious and subject to paranoia.  i saw this regularly during the depression of 2011.  high intelligence seems to make one esp. subject to FUD.  i'm not saying they don't have a right to be but in this case when it comes to what was said in yesterdays hearings, it will pay to be optimistic.  those weren't dumb people testifying yesterday.  especially Shassky.  you can see the intelligence/fire in her eyes.  maybe i might be biased b/c she's a woman and a former athlete, but i think i'm reading her right.  both of those are pluses in my book.  she understands what's going down.  they all do.  they don't have any choice.  

remember that their goal is to keep the US financial system in the top spot.  does everyone here really think that they are too dumb to see the problem with money printing?  i don't.  they just said that they see Bitcoin as financial innovation and are going to let it ride.  they are going to focus on the money transmitters, not Bitcoin itself.  that is a great sign. sometimes one has to temper their pessimism and just listen to what they say. how anyone can think they were just putting on a show is beyond me.  we may have just made it through the window i have spoken about.

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.
bassclef
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November 19, 2013, 05:38:48 PM
 #6589

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.

My favorite line from yesterday's hearing was after the first panel testified. Senator Carper said, "We will resume after a short break and a phone call to my colleague."

*Brrrring*
Carper: The regulators are on board. Buy buy buy!!!
notme
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November 19, 2013, 05:42:09 PM
 #6590

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.

My favorite line from yesterday's hearing was after the first panel testified. Senator Carper said, "We will resume after a short break and a phone call to my colleague."

*Brrrring*
Carper: The regulators are on board. Buy buy buy!!!

lol. Seriously, what else do you make a call about during a 2 minute recess?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 19, 2013, 05:44:38 PM
 #6591

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I gather you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

Right now my best read is that most of these regulators don't comprehend the full extent of what is happening. I'd like it to stay that way. Most of them will be out of a job if Bitcoin succeeds. Big government is very hard to do without money printing, whether they realize that or not.
Spaceman_Spiff
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November 19, 2013, 05:50:06 PM
 #6592

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I think you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

And what if they see the writing on the wall?  And they decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"?  Being in a position of power, if you could see that bitcoin could really become the world reserve currency, how about buying a f*ckload with your own money?
Badonkadonk
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November 19, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
 #6593

Always prepare for the worst case scenario.

Prepare for them to try and regulate Bitcoin to death.

Bitcoin tax, Bitcoin licenses, Bitcoin registration... augh I already have a headache.

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

cypherdoc
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November 19, 2013, 05:56:41 PM
 #6594

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I gather you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

Right now my best read is that most of these regulators don't comprehend the full extent of what is happening. I'd like it to stay that way. Most of them will be out of a job if Bitcoin succeeds. Big government is very hard to do without money printing, whether they realize that or not.

they already realize the threat.  the papers over the last 2 yrs from the ECB, Nicholas Plassaras/IMF, the Chicago Fed, the FBI, etc. all point to that fact.  this was also mentioned yesterday by Shassky.  they have been concentrating on Bitcoin for 2 yrs now and i'm sure they have a full understanding of it.  they aren't stupid.  it would be a mistake to assume so.  but that doesn't necessarily mean they will go nuclear and try to kill Bitcoin.  based on what they said yesterday, the opposite could happen.  the price itself is telling us this will be so.  Bitcoin could be used to save the US from it's financial problems if they let it rise to it's natural level and even use it to replace the Gold Standard from 1971.  this is what i have argued could/should be Bitcoin's final destiny:

back the USD with Bitcoin.
cypherdoc
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November 19, 2013, 06:00:12 PM
 #6595

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I think you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

And what if they see the writing on the wall?  And they decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"?  Being in a position of power, if you could see that bitcoin could really become the world reserve currency, how about buying a f*ckload with your own money?

yep.  and don't forget they already own the top address.  that's a good start despite the way they obtained it was kinda scummy.

nonetheless, at the very least, i think they have gone neutral.  a hands off approach is just as good as an embrace right now.  that could come later.
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November 19, 2013, 06:42:14 PM
 #6596

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I gather you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

Right now my best read is that most of these regulators don't comprehend the full extent of what is happening. I'd like it to stay that way. Most of them will be out of a job if Bitcoin succeeds. Big government is very hard to do without money printing, whether they realize that or not.

they already realize the threat.  the papers over the last 2 yrs from the ECB, Nicholas Plassaras/IMF, the Chicago Fed, the FBI, etc. all point to that fact.  this was also mentioned yesterday by Shassky.  they have been concentrating on Bitcoin for 2 yrs now and i'm sure they have a full understanding of it.  they aren't stupid.  it would be a mistake to assume so.  but that doesn't necessarily mean they will go nuclear and try to kill Bitcoin.  based on what they said yesterday, the opposite could happen.  the price itself is telling us this will be so.  Bitcoin could be used to save the US from it's financial problems if they let it rise to it's natural level and even use it to replace the Gold Standard from 1971.  this is what i have argued could/should be Bitcoin's final destiny:

back the USD with Bitcoin.
I bet the BRICS will issue first a basket currency including bitcoin...
NewLiberty
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November 19, 2013, 07:13:59 PM
 #6597

yep.  and don't forget they already own the top address.  that's a good start despite the way they obtained it was kinda scummy.

nonetheless, at the very least, i think they have gone neutral.  a hands off approach is just as good as an embrace right now.  that could come later.

Scummy to bring the violence back to the drug war?
Scummy to sit by and watch as their perp allegedly put a hit on someone, knowing that he is just making more bitcoin for ol' uncle Sam the longer they let him keep it going, and then wait until he receives travel documents to enable him to leave the jurisdiction before they collar him?

Scummy is faint praise, it was calculatingly ruthless, worthy of the godfather of the worlds biggest protection racket.  Pure police poetry.  They laughed all the way to the treasury on that one.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
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humanitee
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November 19, 2013, 07:15:33 PM
 #6598

yep.  and don't forget they already own the top address.  that's a good start despite the way they obtained it was kinda scummy.

nonetheless, at the very least, i think they have gone neutral.  a hands off approach is just as good as an embrace right now.  that could come later.

Scummy to bring the violence back to the drug war?
Scummy to sit by and watch as their perp allegedly put a hit on someone, knowing that he is just making more bitcoin for ol' uncle Sam the longer they let him keep it going, and then wait until he receives travel documents to enable him to leave the jurisdiction before they collar him?

Scummy is faint praise, it was calculatingly ruthless, worthy of the godfather of the worlds biggest protection racket.  Pure police poetry.  They laughed all the way to the treasury on that one.

Wasn't it DPR who gave them the passkey?

..C..
.....................
........Finally C is .........
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...........            ............
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...................      ....................


molecular
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November 19, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
 #6599

Doesn't matter as long as it makes you wealthy. Cheesy

Yes it does matter. I don't want to live in a "New World Order" world, not even at the top. There's fear everywhere. Fear sucks.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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November 19, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
 #6600

Doesn't matter as long as it makes you wealthy. Cheesy

Yes it does matter. I don't want to live in a "New World Order" world, not even at the top. There's fear everywhere. Fear sucks.


Whatever the system, I'd rather be at the top than the bottom.

Anyway, come on! Blacklisting will only work if you confirm to their reality. Just don't. A coin is a coin. Pecunia non olet.
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