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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807045 times)
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November 19, 2013, 03:57:33 PM
 #6581

Doesn't matter as long as it makes you wealthy. Cheesy

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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November 19, 2013, 03:59:20 PM
 #6582

Impossible for them to take it over. It's like trying to wrestle with water. Bitcoin is a community of decentralized nodes. It can outmaneuver whatever any centralized force tries to throw at it. But I like the whitelisting idea because it makes the establishment let their guard down as the inevitable happens under their noses. It will place a temporary roadblock in Bitcoin's path while allowing it to seep through and assimilate the entire road.
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November 19, 2013, 03:59:56 PM
 #6583

Bitcoin on front page of goldbug stronghold goldseek.com:



The article

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The Fed's $85 billion in monthly bond purchases are inflationary and remain very gold bullish but gold remains very weak despite this ongoing currency debasement.

This money printing and currency debasement and still elevated systemic risk has led to bitcoin surging to new record highs overnight as buyers take shelter in the new virtual currency. Yet, at the same time gold prices remain weak. This is giving further credence to allegations of price suppression.

The virtual currency rose to a high of $900.98 on the Mt. Gox exchange Monday afternoon. It surged 42% from Sunday's close and is up 107% from a week earlier.

...

U.S. law enforcement and regulatory agents expressed optimism and acknowledged risks for digital currencies. U.S. officials outlined the potential benefits and liabilities of bitcoin.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said in a letter in absentia to the Senate panel that virtual currencies "may hold long-term promise, particularly if the innovations promote a faster, more secure, and more efficient payment system."

Bitcoin’s latest gains came despite the potential for regulation of the digital currency. The U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs (HSGAC) began a hearing yesterday. The event brought representatives from different federal agencies and representatives from the bitcoin community to discuss virtual currencies.

Bitcoin has increased more than tenfold since the beginning of 2013. One of the reasons for the incredible surge is that bitcoin is a freely traded market and not subject to rigging or price manipulation by banks or government. Total market capitalization of bitcoins is in excess of $8 billion based on recent prices, according to Bitcoincharts.com.

The bitcoin frenzy today will be mirrored by a gold buying frenzy which will again see gold prices surge in value in the coming months. This will only happen when prices are again dictated by physical supply and demand.

Bitcoin is an interesting speculative punt and may merit a small allocation in a portfolio however its virtual and digital nature create advantages and also risks.

Physical gold, either in your possession or in allocated accounts, remains a far safer alternative both to bitcoin, to digital gold platforms and to paper and electronic currencies in what is still a vulnerable banking system.

Bolded parts show a developing sentiment that gold is suppressed and manipulated, but Bitcoin is a truly free market. It's being used as proof that gold will rally once the manipulation ends Cheesy

I believe that last paragraph was just inserted to maintain the ostensible gold bull trappings to make it suitable for being posted on the site. I think "Goldcore" has some BTC.
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November 19, 2013, 04:24:48 PM
 #6584

Impossible for them to take it over. It's like trying to wrestle with water. Bitcoin is a community of decentralized nodes. It can outmaneuver whatever any centralized force tries to throw at it. But I like the whitelisting idea because it makes the establishment let their guard down as the inevitable happens under their noses. It will place a temporary roadblock in Bitcoin's path while allowing it to seep through and assimilate the entire road.

interesting thought ZB.  not sure i agree but then i see the deviousness.

after yesterdays hearings, i think i almost sympathize with the gov'ts predicament.  they know they can't stop it.  i also thought the 3 reps were reasonable people.  especially Shassky and i think she's the key player.  note that she's on today's agenda as well.

this whole thing is about big vs small in the larger picture or minority vs. majority.  power is shifting to the small individual, small business (ie majority), now that we have our own currency.  if the large corporate players like the Amazons, Walmarts, etc feel they have a need for whitelisting maybe that's not such a bad idea to allow them to get thru the window of the transitional phase w/o the whole economy imploding.  no one, esp. me wants anarchy or an implosion of the economy.  i do want the banking and financial system to be forced to make the difficult transition to a currency like Bitcoin but we can't expect them to make it overnight.  

small players can choose to ignore the whitelists if they want.  what would really help is if the gov't made that legal.  perhaps below some sort of threshold.
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November 19, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
 #6585

Well anarchy is matter of timescale. It's true that if things happen too fast it can be bad, but I think there are natural limitations that act as brakes. Think Bitcoin infrastructure.

A characteristic of natural orders - whether they be rainforests, customary legal systems, or markets - is that they start out very precarious but become very powerful and balanced as time goes on, as structural relationships are developed and negotiated, as trial and error runs its course, as evolution and natural selection happen. But in the digital age this can happen extremely quickly.

I'm not worried about traditional banking and monetary authority losing its grip too fast, because that will take several years at least and I just don't think they actually provide real stability anyway - if anything they cause chaos with their market interventions. I trust Bitcoin's antifragility more than rigid central planning.

What I think about whitelisting is I'd like to see it tried and fail for distraction purposes just because right now, this coming year or so, feels like a crucial time for Bitcoin adoption. I could see it either being banned or regulated into obscurity in the US, only to roar back again massively in a few years after gestating overseas, or not being banned or overly regulated and taking a more direct, faster path into the mainstream. I prefer the faster path.

Basically anything for the "by the time they know what hit 'em it'll be too late" dynamic to happen.

Optimistically speaking, it may already be too late. Bitcoin may be so compelling on an individual level for both the virtuous and the rats in government and financial circles that they know they have to get in. Then they're on Team BTC.
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November 19, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
 #6586

Well anarchy is matter of timescale. It's true that if things happen too fast it can be bad, but I think there are natural limitations that act as brakes. Think Bitcoin infrastructure.

A characteristic of natural orders - whether they be rainforests, customary legal systems, or markets - is that they start out very precarious but become very powerful and balanced as time goes on, as structural relationships are developed and negotiated, as trial and error runs its course, as evolution and natural selection happen. But in the digital age this can happen extremely quickly.

I'm not worried about traditional banking and monetary authority losing its grip too fast, because that will take several years at least and I just don't think they actually provide real stability anyway - if anything they cause chaos with their market interventions. I trust Bitcoin's antifragility more than rigid central planning.

What I think about whitelisting is I'd like to see it tried and fail for distraction purposes just because right now, this coming year or so, feels like a crucial time for Bitcoin adoption. I could see it either being banned or regulated into obscurity in the US, only to roar back again massively in a few years after gestating overseas, or not being banned or overly regulated and taking a more direct, faster path into the mainstream. I prefer the faster path.

Basically anything for the "by the time they know what hit 'em it'll be too late" dynamic to happen.

Optimistically speaking, it may already be too late. Bitcoin may be so compelling on an individual level for both the virtuous and the rats in government and financial circles that they know they have to get in. Then they're on Team BTC.

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.
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November 19, 2013, 04:56:44 PM
 #6587

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.
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November 19, 2013, 05:03:59 PM
 #6588

Always prepare for the worst case scenario.

Prepare for them to try and regulate Bitcoin to death.

Bitcoin tax, Bitcoin licenses, Bitcoin registration... augh I already have a headache.

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses. Psalm 20. 7
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November 19, 2013, 05:15:30 PM
 #6589

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

This is not some pseudoeconomic post-modern Libertarian cult, it's an un-led, crowd-sourced mega startup organized around mutual self-interest where problems, whether of the theoretical or purely practical variety, are treated as temporary and, ultimately, solvable.
Censorship of e-gold was easy. Censorship of Bitcoin will be… entertaining.
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November 19, 2013, 05:31:22 PM
 #6590

Optimistically speaking, it may already be too late. Bitcoin may be so compelling on an individual level for both the virtuous and the rats in government and financial circles that they know they have to get in. Then they're on Team BTC.

yes, YES! Bitcoin will make closet sound money advocates and anarchists out of all the government officials and bankers! I like that idea.  Grin

Somebody here said that Bitcoin is like a blob. You hit it and it assimilates you. I like that much more than the "Bitcoin is a Honey Badger" meme.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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November 19, 2013, 05:34:55 PM
 #6591

Quote
Somebody here said that Bitcoin is like a blob. You hit it and it assimilates you.

That was me Grin
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November 19, 2013, 05:38:20 PM
 #6592

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.

that is the pessimistic view.  i was meaning to comment on this given i think that miscreanity is also guilty of this.  which is precisely why he missed the speed of how fast this is all happening.  in his case, i know where he came from so i give him a pass.  you, otoh, sound like you were born and raised here in the good 'ol US of A.  

one of the major problems around these parts, especially amongst the geeks, is that they are highly suspicious and subject to paranoia.  i saw this regularly during the depression of 2011.  high intelligence seems to make one esp. subject to FUD.  i'm not saying they don't have a right to be but in this case when it comes to what was said in yesterdays hearings, it will pay to be optimistic.  those weren't dumb people testifying yesterday.  especially Shassky.  you can see the intelligence/fire in her eyes.  maybe i might be biased b/c she's a woman and a former athlete, but i think i'm reading her right.  both of those are pluses in my book.  she understands what's going down.  they all do.  they don't have any choice.  

remember that their goal is to keep the US financial system in the top spot.  does everyone here really think that they are too dumb to see the problem with money printing?  i don't.  they just said that they see Bitcoin as financial innovation and are going to let it ride.  they are going to focus on the money transmitters, not Bitcoin itself.  that is a great sign. sometimes one has to temper their pessimism and just listen to what they say. how anyone can think they were just putting on a show is beyond me.  we may have just made it through the window i have spoken about.

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.
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November 19, 2013, 05:38:48 PM
 #6593

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.

My favorite line from yesterday's hearing was after the first panel testified. Senator Carper said, "We will resume after a short break and a phone call to my colleague."

*Brrrring*
Carper: The regulators are on board. Buy buy buy!!!
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November 19, 2013, 05:42:09 PM
 #6594

given the market price ramps we've seen and after yesterday's Senate hearings, Team BTC-USA has already formed.

I'm just not sure how these Senate hearings usually go. Is this just them being polite? Are they gonna figure out that Bitcoin is un-regulate-able and blow a collective gasket? Or is this really the US embracing cryptocurrencies? It just seems too good to be true. Perhaps their way of thinking, the fact that they believe in centralized control, is exactly what keeps them from seeing the fundamental potential of Bitcoin to rearrange the world.

My favorite line from yesterday's hearing was after the first panel testified. Senator Carper said, "We will resume after a short break and a phone call to my colleague."

*Brrrring*
Carper: The regulators are on board. Buy buy buy!!!

lol. Seriously, what else do you make a call about during a 2 minute recess?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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November 19, 2013, 05:44:38 PM
 #6595

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I gather you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

Right now my best read is that most of these regulators don't comprehend the full extent of what is happening. I'd like it to stay that way. Most of them will be out of a job if Bitcoin succeeds. Big government is very hard to do without money printing, whether they realize that or not.
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November 19, 2013, 05:50:06 PM
 #6596

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I think you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

And what if they see the writing on the wall?  And they decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"?  Being in a position of power, if you could see that bitcoin could really become the world reserve currency, how about buying a f*ckload with your own money?
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November 19, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
 #6597

Always prepare for the worst case scenario.

Prepare for them to try and regulate Bitcoin to death.

Bitcoin tax, Bitcoin licenses, Bitcoin registration... augh I already have a headache.

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

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November 19, 2013, 05:56:41 PM
 #6598

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I gather you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

Right now my best read is that most of these regulators don't comprehend the full extent of what is happening. I'd like it to stay that way. Most of them will be out of a job if Bitcoin succeeds. Big government is very hard to do without money printing, whether they realize that or not.

they already realize the threat.  the papers over the last 2 yrs from the ECB, Nicholas Plassaras/IMF, the Chicago Fed, the FBI, etc. all point to that fact.  this was also mentioned yesterday by Shassky.  they have been concentrating on Bitcoin for 2 yrs now and i'm sure they have a full understanding of it.  they aren't stupid.  it would be a mistake to assume so.  but that doesn't necessarily mean they will go nuclear and try to kill Bitcoin.  based on what they said yesterday, the opposite could happen.  the price itself is telling us this will be so.  Bitcoin could be used to save the US from it's financial problems if they let it rise to it's natural level and even use it to replace the Gold Standard from 1971.  this is what i have argued could/should be Bitcoin's final destiny:

back the USD with Bitcoin.
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November 19, 2013, 06:00:12 PM
 #6599

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I think you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

And what if they see the writing on the wall?  And they decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"?  Being in a position of power, if you could see that bitcoin could really become the world reserve currency, how about buying a f*ckload with your own money?

yep.  and don't forget they already own the top address.  that's a good start despite the way they obtained it was kinda scummy.

nonetheless, at the very least, i think they have gone neutral.  a hands off approach is just as good as an embrace right now.  that could come later.
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November 19, 2013, 06:40:35 PM
 #6600

Always prepare for the worst case scenario.

Prepare for them to try and regulate Bitcoin to death.

Bitcoin tax, Bitcoin licenses, Bitcoin registration... augh I already have a headache.

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

Wow smart, I guess everyone will be honest to the government about their Bitcoin holdings then [/sarcasm]

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