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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808263 times)
Zangelbert Bingledack
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October 28, 2013, 07:31:23 AM
 #6121

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

[sematics]I disagree, because with Bitcoin, two (or more) people can control the same bitcoins, in which case it becomes a race to send them first.

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides your ability to prevent everyone else's control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

In other words, to own or possess bitcoin(s), you must be the sole controller of the private key.[/semantics]

I think this is an important distinction. o_O

Yes, multiple parties controlling the same coins are an exception.
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conspirosphere.tk
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October 28, 2013, 08:03:42 AM
 #6122

Yes, multiple parties controlling the same coins are an exception.

not at all: it's like gold stored in a safe of which 2 or more ppl can have the key.

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October 28, 2013, 10:21:02 AM
 #6123

posession, ownership, control ... I think we need to get these straight.

Gavin seemed to have implied control=ownership for Bitcoin here: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3840286/raw/b6834fc5ac1367cde3417781a329475f7b99430b/brainwallets.md

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If there are unspent bitcoins associated with that passphrase, your software should also immediately send those bitcoins to your wallet. That is your way of letting the other person know they chose a bad passphrase, and your reward for letting them know they need to move the coins in their main brainwallet.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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October 28, 2013, 10:25:58 AM
 #6124

posession, ownership, control ... I think we need to get these straight.

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

Ok, I can live with that.


Yes, getting these straight is important.

I think a main source of confusion is under a proper system of english common law where we live under the rule of established law and not under the rule of men, ownership = control. But when this legal framework breaks down (such as FDR's 1933 order) then ownership no longer equals control and the concepts of possession become important towards maintaining control.

So with Gold ownership equals control until the rule of law breaks down. With bitcoin the concept of possession is stronger than with gold so when the rule of law breaks down you still maintain stronger control. But as others have pointed out the state and still torture you till they get your coins, so the concepts of possession and control are stronger than with gold but not absolute. It is easier for the government to take your gold and/or inflate your money away than it is from them to torture you, but the state can do both...



Use deniable encryption or brainwallet(properly secured)

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
justusranvier
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October 28, 2013, 08:40:56 PM
 #6125



cypherdoc
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October 28, 2013, 08:44:08 PM
 #6126





and here i thought i was early.
tvbcof
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October 28, 2013, 08:58:54 PM
 #6127

- image -

and here i thought i was early.

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

The lesson to be learned here in my opinion is that diversity is a good thing.  I'm delighted by Bitcoin's performance and more hopeful then ever that we've not seen anything yet.  But I also would not be surprised to see a very ugly step function representing Bitcoin's failure.

 - edit: fix quotes.

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October 28, 2013, 09:29:21 PM
 #6128

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.
First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.

notme
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October 28, 2013, 09:32:49 PM
 #6129

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.
First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.



Now if only you could link to the post in the "I smell a trap" thread that occurs closest to the peak in between Wink.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
tvbcof
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October 28, 2013, 09:45:54 PM
 #6130

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.
First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.

 - image with lines -

Huh.  I remembered it differently.  I suppose because I was doing the 'year performance' thing for a while in a (seemingly successful) attempt to annoy cypherdoc Smiley


cypherdoc
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October 28, 2013, 09:59:15 PM
 #6131

- image -

and here i thought i was early.

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

The lesson to be learned here in my opinion is that diversity is a good thing.  I'm delighted by Bitcoin's performance and more hopeful then ever that we've not seen anything yet.  But I also would not be surprised to see a very ugly step function representing Bitcoin's failure.

 - edit: fix quotes.


it wasn't just you.  it was me against all the goldbugs.  it's all here in the threads.  there were a lot of them.

i've been thinking over the last few days just how much this thread has calmed down since its beginning days.  you actually had to be here to appreciate just how much trolling i suffered through to make this point.  i seem to have this gift in attracting large groups of ppl who hate what i have to say for prolonged periods of time.  Wink  the goldbugs were the first, the shorts during the Bitcoin Depression of 2011 second, and finally the Hashfast haters.

and to be fair, you were one of the few with me during the battle with the shorts.
cypherdoc
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October 28, 2013, 10:08:42 PM
 #6132

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.
First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.



those lines for the start of the threads really don't do them justice.  don't forget they represent a ratio so the plunge in BTC from July 2011 to Nov 2011 cause the peak in btwn the start of the 2 threads even though gold had started its decline.  it's just that BTC crashed faster than gold and then rebounded.

i'm not going to sit here and brag but if you go back thru my posts, i started selling silver at the peak of $49 with avg cost out @ $44.  the Gold I Smell a Trap thread, 8/9/11, was perfectly timed to the peak in gold @ 1923.7 in Sept 2011.  my BTC buying started Apr 2011 as well.  Tongue
cypherdoc
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October 28, 2013, 10:19:31 PM
 #6133

don't worry, i get plenty wrong too.

this f*ckin Dow just won't go down and i've been over a year too early on the short side.  one of these days i'll be right. Tongue

but the thing is, i've been SO right with gold and BTC i've been able to hold that pair trade (long Bitcoin:short stocks) the whole time with huge returns.  i think we're getting close to hitting on both sides of that trade though.

if you trade long enough, you'll realize if you can be right more often than wrong you're doing good.  if you can be right for 2 out of the 3 markets you're trading in, that's real good.
justusranvier
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October 28, 2013, 10:30:41 PM
 #6134

those lines for the start of the threads really don't do them justice.  don't forget they represent a ratio so the plunge in BTC from July 2011 to Nov 2011 cause the peak in btwn the start of the 2 threads even though gold had started its decline.  it's just that BTC crashed faster than gold.
It's difficult to capture the gold:USD, USD:BTC, and gold:BTC ratios in a single line graph.

In either case, if somebody dumped all their gold and bought BTC at the beginning of either one of these threads and sat on their position they've done very well by now.

Especially considering since the start of this thread the BTC:gold ratio has been in almost continual freefall.
tvbcof
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October 28, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
 #6135

don't worry, i get plenty wrong too.

this f*ckin Dow just won't go down and i've been over a year too early on the short side.  one of these days i'll be right. Tongue

but the thing is, i've been SO right with gold and BTC i've been able to hold that pair trade (long Bitcoin:short stocks) the whole time with huge returns.  i think we're getting close to hitting on both sides of that trade though.

if you trade long enough, you'll realize if you can be right more often than wrong you're doing good.  if you can be right for 2 out of the 3 markets you're trading in, that's real good.

I cannot see how you got so screwed on taxes WRT gold.  I have a CPA do my books and I didn't seem to have gotten hit nearly as hard.  2013 is going to be an interesting year due to my starting to take BTC profits.

The really interesting thing will happen if/when people start to exchange BTC for PM's (and vice-versa) directly in a major way.


cypherdoc
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October 28, 2013, 10:38:47 PM
 #6136

those lines for the start of the threads really don't do them justice.  don't forget they represent a ratio so the plunge in BTC from July 2011 to Nov 2011 cause the peak in btwn the start of the 2 threads even though gold had started its decline.  it's just that BTC crashed faster than gold.
It's difficult to capture the gold:USD, USD:BTC, and gold:BTC ratios in a single line graph.

In either case, if somebody dumped all their gold and bought BTC at the beginning of either one of these threads and sat on their position they've done very well by now.

Especially considering since the start of this thread the BTC:gold ratio has been in almost continual freefall ascent.

ftfy.

you cannot capture the trading granularity with the one line graph.  hence the granularity of this thread and the newsletter.  more than once i've had to justify my claimed trades by linking back to specific posts in my history here after having been slammed to the wall by the likes of silverbox, MatthewLM, bitcool, etc (you know, goldbugs).  it's all here.
cypherdoc
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October 28, 2013, 10:41:05 PM
 #6137

don't worry, i get plenty wrong too.

this f*ckin Dow just won't go down and i've been over a year too early on the short side.  one of these days i'll be right. Tongue

but the thing is, i've been SO right with gold and BTC i've been able to hold that pair trade (long Bitcoin:short stocks) the whole time with huge returns.  i think we're getting close to hitting on both sides of that trade though.

if you trade long enough, you'll realize if you can be right more often than wrong you're doing good.  if you can be right for 2 out of the 3 markets you're trading in, that's real good.

I cannot see how you got so screwed on taxes WRT gold.  I have a CPA do my books and I didn't seem to have gotten hit nearly as hard.  2013 is going to be an interesting year due to my starting to take BTC profits.

The really interesting thing will happen if/when people start to exchange BTC for PM's (and vice-versa) directly in a major way.



b/c i report them?  Wink

as i said, my local bullion dealer meticulously recorded my entire gold/silver sale back to them by writing down my name, address, check amount, and photocopying my license.  you'd have to be nuts not to report the gains.
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October 28, 2013, 10:41:37 PM
 #6138

Especially considering since the start of this thread the BTC:gold ratio has been in almost continual freefall ascent.

ftfy.
Is not the convention numerator:denominator?

In that case BTC:gold is falling and gold:BTC is ascending.
tvbcof
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October 28, 2013, 10:58:15 PM
 #6139


I cannot see how you got so screwed on taxes WRT gold.  I have a CPA do my books and I didn't seem to have gotten hit nearly as hard.  2013 is going to be an interesting year due to my starting to take BTC profits.

The really interesting thing will happen if/when people start to exchange BTC for PM's (and vice-versa) directly in a major way.


b/c i report them?  Wink

as i said, my local bullion dealer meticulously recorded my entire gold/silver sale back to them by writing down my name, address, check amount, and photocopying my license.  you'd have to be nuts not to report the gains.

I concur about the questionable judgement of not reporting, and I reported mine as well.  I just didn't get hit with some 50% or whatever crazy numbers you were mentioning were.  We got in at different times, however, and maybe that had something to do with it.  I just let my CPA deal with that shit.

BTW, however stupid it might be to cheat on the PM gain taxes, I'll bet it is 10x more so to attempt to do so on BTC gains.  The reason is that it will be one of the few vaguely legitimate reasons to attack Bitcoin should the government take a mind to do so.  And as the ecosystem continues to flourish I think there is a very real danger that they'll be forced into that course of action.

When it comes to direct PM<->BTC transactions it seems like the barriers to exploitation both legally and mechanically is a bit higher.  That is why I think it will be interesting to watch how things evolve if/when we get that far.


damnek
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October 28, 2013, 11:07:42 PM
 #6140

don't worry, i get plenty wrong too.

this f*ckin Dow just won't go down and i've been over a year too early on the short side.  one of these days i'll be right. Tongue

but the thing is, i've been SO right with gold and BTC i've been able to hold that pair trade (long Bitcoin:short stocks) the whole time with huge returns.  i think we're getting close to hitting on both sides of that trade though.

if you trade long enough, you'll realize if you can be right more often than wrong you're doing good.  if you can be right for 2 out of the 3 markets you're trading in, that's real good.

I've been short stocks for quite some time too now, but I've managed to limit my losses by using option strategies. I'm mainly trading calendar spreads on the indexes and volatility products to give myself some room to be on the wrong side. The advantage of calendar spreads is that they work very well when volatility is cheap and that your risk is defined (max loss is price you paid for the spread).

The longer this thing goes on the more severe the drop will be.. I hope Smiley

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