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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806434 times)
Melbustus
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June 26, 2013, 05:16:29 PM
 #5341

I still find it funny that people call LTC a scamcoin. What exactly is the "scam"?
...


Of course it's not a "scam", but its benefits are often overstated. I'm all for alt-coin experimentation; just wish there were actually more real experimentation (NMC and maybe PPC are the only ones with real differences). Litecoin's quicker confirms are a moot point, for one thing...there are almost zero applications where an avg confirm of 2.5mins is acceptable where 10mins is not. I still can't buy a cup a coffee. And it doesn't matter that scrypt is asic-resistant. That's not synonymous with "asic-proof"; if ltc ever got valuable enough, asics for it would arise. It's not going to achieve better decentralization because of scrypt.

To me, litecoin is not innovative, and I therefore find it annoying that it's achieved the success it has. I do see some value in that it's a "backup" network to an extent (but, if bitcoin were successfully attacked, most likely the same attackers could hit litecoin too), and there's value in being able to move coins in and out of both chains with some liquidity. But those are 2nd order concerns. Again, I'd like to see more real alt experimentation.


tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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June 26, 2013, 05:21:56 PM
 #5342

tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

this: I have yet to see  compelling reasoning contrary to this point

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June 26, 2013, 05:22:16 PM
 #5343

I still find it funny that people call LTC a scamcoin. What exactly is the "scam"?
...


Of course it's not a "scam", but its benefits are often overstated. I'm all for alt-coin experimentation; just wish there were actually more real experimentation (NMC and maybe PPC are the only ones with real differences). Litecoin's quicker confirms are a moot point, for one thing...there are almost zero applications where an avg confirm of 2.5mins is acceptable where 10mins is not. I still can't buy a cup a coffee. And it doesn't matter that scrypt is asic-resistant. That's not synonymous with "asic-proof"; if ltc ever got valuable enough, asics for it would arise. It's not going to achieve better decentralization because of scrypt.

To me, litecoin is not innovative, and I therefore find it annoying that it's achieved the success it has. I do see some value in that it's a "backup" network to an extent (but, if bitcoin were successfully attacked, most likely the same attackers could hit litecoin too), and there's value in being able to move coins in and out of both chains with some liquidity. But those are 2nd order concerns. Again, I'd like to see more real alt experimentation.


tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.
so you like 1oz round gold coins but you dont like 1/2oz square gold coins

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 05:24:00 PM
 #5344

so you like 1oz round gold coins but you dont like 1/2oz square gold coins

I don't like either as of right now. But I see your reasoning, however, I don't think it transitively applies. Gold=Gold but BTC=/=LTC

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 05:25:25 PM
 #5345

tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

this: I have yet to see  compelling reasoning contrary to this point
that's the typical crypto get rich quick opportunistic view

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 05:33:29 PM
 #5346

...
so you like 1oz round gold coins but you dont like 1/2oz square gold coins

I'm partial to Krugerrands because they are not struck with a face value.  Other than that, I'm almost exclusively interested in mole weight for any precious metal vs. any specific form factor.

Almost everything I find to be a weakness in Bitcoin is at least as represented in Litecoin so it has never been compelling enough to me to play around with.  I have, however, encouraged and facilitated others in doing so since Bitcoin's scaling deficiencies are becoming a significant turn-off.  Of course Litecoin would have an identical problem if it were more popular, so it is ultimately a dead-end in my opinion.  That's not to say it could not be milked in the intrim however...

I do appreciate the baby steps Litecoin has taken with respect to proof of work.  I theorize that as crypto currency state-of-the-art evolves this will be a major source of differentiation and importance.


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June 26, 2013, 06:17:07 PM
 #5347

I learned something new today about Krugs not having face value.

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June 26, 2013, 07:08:34 PM
 #5348

I learned something new today about Krugs not having face value.

reminds me of the silver hundred dollar "bills" I just saw in a national geographic ad for $100, for $95 if you buy multiple, before shipping and handling. They're 31.1gs or 480 grains Smiley what a great deal

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June 26, 2013, 07:26:14 PM
 #5349

tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

this: I have yet to see  compelling reasoning contrary to this point
that's the typical crypto get rich quick opportunistic view

I don't see how. When I first ran into Bitcoin, I didn't see it as an investment but rather as a pretty useful tool. It was only months later when I took the opportunity to buy in when I did. A few months later, I run into Litecoin, around the same time it was first released and gaining traction. It wasn't even worth a penny yet, per LTC. Yes, Litecoin  has definitely appreciated, and that has been duly noted, and it was too bad I didn't choose to get on, but at the same time, the ratio of speculation to development is a lot lower than that of Bitcoin. It  does the same thing as Bitcoin, yeah, but to me this is like starting a second fork simply for the sake of.  Sure people will join on to this fork, but personally, I will choose to stick to the older, longer fork because to me, it's more valid. Until LTC does something Bitcoin can't, I will stay on the majority fork.

I will acknowledge that anything developed for Bitcoin can very easily be fitted for Litecoin.

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 07:27:13 PM
 #5350

I'm partial to Krugerrands because they are not struck with a face value.  Other than that, I'm almost exclusively interested in mole weight for any precious metal vs. any specific form factor.
i am on the same side the only way to look at gold/silver coins is weight, using names or "stamps"  that replace weight (oz or grams) leave the door open for debasement
when one demand on 1oz of silver wants and expects 1 oz of silver no matter the shape/form but when one demand 1 silver dollar get 1 silver dollar no 1 oz of silver

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 07:37:35 PM
 #5351

tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

this: I have yet to see  compelling reasoning contrary to this point
that's the typical crypto get rich quick opportunistic view

I don't see how. When I first ran into Bitcoin, I didn't see it as an investment but rather as a pretty useful tool. It was only months later when I took the opportunity to buy in when I did. Litecoin does the same thing as Bitcoin, yeah, but to me this is like starting a second fork simply for the sake of.  Personally, I will choose to stick to the older, longer fork because to me, it's more valid. Until LTC does something Bitcoin can't, I will stay on the majority fork.
I by principle support and like all form of crypto-currency, also I like any form and shape of gold/silver coins.If I invest on buffalo gold coins my bias is towards that coins and i can make a dozen of excuses (marketing and promotion) why the buffalo gold coins are better that any other gold coins and any other form of gold, why ? simple i like to drive up the demand for buffalo coins so i can buy more land/food/service/products with them, same goes for LTC and BTC, LTC can perform the same functions like BTC. Does the Australian gold coins need to be better that the buffalo gold coins ? nope, if are 99% pure gold is the same thing and can perform the same function.
The only scenario where one can like bitcoin and dislike litecoins/any_alt_coins is when they thread the crypto currency like a get rich quick scheme so having a competing scheme can leech suckers/idiots/pig/late adopters/you_name_it from the favourite sheme and that will ruin the plans of getting rich on the fastest way possible

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 07:45:16 PM
 #5352

tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

this: I have yet to see  compelling reasoning contrary to this point
that's the typical crypto get rich quick opportunistic view

I don't see how. When I first ran into Bitcoin, I didn't see it as an investment but rather as a pretty useful tool. It was only months later when I took the opportunity to buy in when I did. Litecoin does the same thing as Bitcoin, yeah, but to me this is like starting a second fork simply for the sake of.  Personally, I will choose to stick to the older, longer fork because to me, it's more valid. Until LTC does something Bitcoin can't, I will stay on the majority fork.
I by principle support and like all form of crypto-currency, also I like any form and shape of gold/silver coins.If I invest on buffalo gold coins my bias is towards that coins and i can make a dozen of excuses (marketing and promotion) why the buffalo gold coins are better that any other gold coins and any other form of gold, why ? simple i like to drive up the demand for buffalo coins so i can buy more land/food/service/products with them, same goes for LTC and BTC, LTC can perform the same functions like BTC. Does the Australian gold coins need to be better that the buffalo gold coins ? nope, if are 99% pure gold is the same thing and can perform the same function.
The only scenario where one can like bitcoin and dislike litecoins/any_alt_coins is when they thread the crypto currency like a get rich quick scheme so having a competing scheme can leech suckers/idiots/pig/late adopters/you_name_it from the favourite sheme and that will ruin the plans of getting rich on the fastest way possible

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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June 26, 2013, 07:52:49 PM
 #5353

tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.

this: I have yet to see  compelling reasoning contrary to this point
that's the typical crypto get rich quick opportunistic view

I don't see how. When I first ran into Bitcoin, I didn't see it as an investment but rather as a pretty useful tool. It was only months later when I took the opportunity to buy in when I did. Litecoin does the same thing as Bitcoin, yeah, but to me this is like starting a second fork simply for the sake of.  Personally, I will choose to stick to the older, longer fork because to me, it's more valid. Until LTC does something Bitcoin can't, I will stay on the majority fork.
I by principle support and like all form of crypto-currency, also I like any form and shape of gold/silver coins.If I invest on buffalo gold coins my bias is towards that coins and i can make a dozen of excuses (marketing and promotion) why the buffalo gold coins are better that any other gold coins and any other form of gold, why ? simple i like to drive up the demand for buffalo coins so i can buy more land/food/service/products with them, same goes for LTC and BTC, LTC can perform the same functions like BTC. Does the Australian gold coins need to be better that the buffalo gold coins ? nope, if are 99% pure gold is the same thing and can perform the same function.
The only scenario where one can like bitcoin and dislike litecoins/any_alt_coins is when they thread the crypto currency like a get rich quick scheme so having a competing scheme can leech suckers/idiots/pig/late adopters/you_name_it from the favourite sheme and that will ruin the plans of getting rich on the fastest way possible

Maybe everyone can start mining his own coins ... Tomorrow I can sell you odalvcoin (same as bitcoin -> same utility, only will not start with genesis block) and next week odalvsilvercoin (same as LTC only 4x more coins)
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June 26, 2013, 07:55:29 PM
 #5354

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.

Securitization.

Not quite the same, more like an alloy, but still a transformative effect.
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June 26, 2013, 08:03:50 PM
 #5355

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.
thats one of many reasons why gold/silver > BTC
Maybe everyone can start mining his own coins ... Tomorrow I can sell you odalvcoin (same as bitcoin -> same utility, only will not start with genesis block) and next week odalvsilvercoin (same as LTC only 4x more coins)
I hope we will have red cross coins, footbol club Barcelona coins, paris coins, help the children coins, cure hiv coins  and everyone can vote with their wallet and get behind any of the chain

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 08:07:14 PM
 #5356

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.
thats one of many reasons why gold/silver > BTC

On the other hand, you can transform an existing cryptocurrency.
For example, the proof-of-work could be changed for something else. The time between blocks could also be changed.

It's as if you could transform your gold into silver or platinum, if for any reason those were to become more interesting.
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June 26, 2013, 08:11:55 PM
 #5357

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.
thats one of many reasons why gold/silver > BTC
Maybe everyone can start mining his own coins ... Tomorrow I can sell you odalvcoin (same as bitcoin -> same utility, only will not start with genesis block) and next week odalvsilvercoin (same as LTC only 4x more coins)
I hope we will have red cross coins, footbol club Barcelona coins, paris coins, help the children coins, cure hiv coins  and everyone can vote with their wallet and get behind any of the chain

Bitcoin is enough. :-) (we do not more coins, just setup Barcelona(hiv, paris, help ...) addresses and  you can vote with Bitcoin)
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June 26, 2013, 08:20:33 PM
 #5358

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.

Securitization.

Not quite the same, more like an alloy, but still a transformative effect.

Still, even more so than my trade example, it relies on a trustworthy counterparty.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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June 26, 2013, 08:47:28 PM
 #5359

You can melt down all (legitimate) gold coins and put them in whatever form you want.  You can not transform one cryptocurrency to another without finding a trading partner and agreeing on a conversion rate.

Securitization.

Not quite the same, more like an alloy, but still a transformative effect.

Still, even more so than my trade example, it relies on a trustworthy counterparty.

and crypto doesn't Smiley just relies on net consensus

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 08:52:04 PM
 #5360

Bitcoin is enough. :-) (we do not more coins, just setup Barcelona(hiv, paris, help ...) addresses and  you can vote with Bitcoin)

no sir, for example if I have to donate to red cross bitcoins,  I need to buy that bitcoin, so I increase the demand of something I dont want, in the other hand if I have red cross coins and I buy that and then donate to red cross I increase the demand of a alt_coin_brand that I am willing to support, the red cross coins wont affect bitcoin on any way so bitcoin opportunist have nothing to gain from my donation to red cross

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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