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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808600 times)
vokain
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June 26, 2013, 08:55:06 PM
 #5361

Bitcoin is enough. :-) (we do not more coins, just setup Barcelona(hiv, paris, help ...) addresses and  you can vote with Bitcoin)

no sir, for example if I want to donate to red cross bitcoins  I need to buy that bitcoin so I increase the demand of something I dont want, in the other hand if I have red cross coins and I buy that and then donate to red cross I increase the demand of a alt_coin_brand that I am willing to support, the red cross coins wont affect bitcoin on any way so bitcoin opportunist have nothing to gain from my donation to red cross

unless you already have BTC. what's the difference with USD?

but i'm on the same side with you, I'm all about choices

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Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 08:58:22 PM
 #5362

I still find it funny that people call LTC a scamcoin. What exactly is the "scam"?
...


Of course it's not a "scam", but its benefits are often overstated. I'm all for alt-coin experimentation; just wish there were actually more real experimentation (NMC and maybe PPC are the only ones with real differences). Litecoin's quicker confirms are a moot point, for one thing...there are almost zero applications where an avg confirm of 2.5mins is acceptable where 10mins is not. I still can't buy a cup a coffee. And it doesn't matter that scrypt is asic-resistant. That's not synonymous with "asic-proof"; if ltc ever got valuable enough, asics for it would arise. It's not going to achieve better decentralization because of scrypt.

To me, litecoin is not innovative, and I therefore find it annoying that it's achieved the success it has. I do see some value in that it's a "backup" network to an extent (but, if bitcoin were successfully attacked, most likely the same attackers could hit litecoin too), and there's value in being able to move coins in and out of both chains with some liquidity. But those are 2nd order concerns. Again, I'd like to see more real alt experimentation.


tl;dr - it's not a scam, but it's also not innovative and doesn't offer anything that bitcoin doesn't.
so you like 1oz round gold coins but you dont like 1/2oz square gold coins

No, that's an improper analogy. Comparing round gold coins to square gold coins would be like comparing a bitcoin wallet file on my computer with a bitcoin wallet file on a usb drive.


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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June 26, 2013, 09:08:32 PM
 #5363

Bitcoin is enough. :-) (we do not more coins, just setup Barcelona(hiv, paris, help ...) addresses and  you can vote with Bitcoin)

no sir, for example if I want to donate to red cross bitcoins  I need to buy that bitcoin so I increase the demand of something I dont want, in the other hand if I have red cross coins and I buy that and then donate to red cross I increase the demand of a alt_coin_brand that I am willing to support, the red cross coins wont affect bitcoin on any way so bitcoin opportunist have nothing to gain from my donation to red cross

It is not so easy to run thousands of chains (it costs a lot of resources) ... weak chains are easy to manipulate (with money or with +51% attack)

The only way to build crypto-currentcy is to build STRONG ONE ...
 ( 1.  no one can afford to control 50%+ of mining power, 2. expensive coins(hard to manipulate price), nobody can buy them all (10%) )
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June 26, 2013, 09:09:34 PM
 #5364


It is not so easy to run thousands of chains (it costs a lot of resources) ... weak chains are easy to manipulate (with money or with +51% attack)

The only way to build crypto-currentcy is to build STRONG ONE ...
 ( 1.  no one can afford to control 50%+ of mining power, 2. expensive coins(hard to manipulate price), nobody can buy them all (10%) )

qft

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 09:09:54 PM
 #5365

unless you already have BTC. what's the difference with USD?
the case of BTC vs red cross coins can be simple, if red cross coins are premined by red cross when you buy the red cross you increase the demand => increase the value  so you help red cross by purchasing the coins and them from  donating them, if the red cross coins are not premined can be set by only by exchange rules and so on  


USD transactions are more expensive that p2p crypto transactions so your donation will generate more revenue for banks

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 09:11:15 PM
 #5366

The only way to build crypto-currentcy is to build STRONG ONE ...
 ( 1.  no one can afford to control 50%+ of mining power, 2. expensive coins(hard to manipulate price), nobody can buy them all (10%) )
in that case the cap valuation of bitcoin is the total cost to perform a 51% attack-1USD

edit: you dont care about point 2 if you can perform point 1 a currency that cant be used lose its value

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 09:16:25 PM
 #5367

The only way to build crypto-currentcy is to build STRONG ONE ...
 ( 1.  no one can afford to control 50%+ of mining power, 2. expensive coins(hard to manipulate price), nobody can buy them all (10%) )
in that case the cap valuation of bitcoin is the total cost to perform a 51% attack-1USD

+ time

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 09:30:51 PM
 #5368

The only way to build crypto-currentcy is to build STRONG ONE ...
 ( 1.  no one can afford to control 50%+ of mining power, 2. expensive coins(hard to manipulate price), nobody can buy them all (10%) )
in that case the cap valuation of bitcoin is the total cost to perform a 51% attack-1USD

edit: you dont care about point 2 if you can perform point 1 a currency that cant be used lose its value
If I'm an investor or ordinary people then this currency is useless. (but great if I'm day trader who spend all his life with trading currencies/commodities all day long .. not useful for 99% of population)
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June 26, 2013, 09:38:28 PM
 #5369

Apparently gold price at below recovery costs.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-26/gold-drops-below-its-average-cash-cost

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June 26, 2013, 09:42:15 PM
 #5370

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.
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June 26, 2013, 09:44:29 PM
 #5371


people must really want fiat Roll Eyes

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.

can you be more specific about your time frame here? sure it could have a reaction back up, but how many have money to spare to support higher gold prices?

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 10:29:36 PM
 #5372

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.

can you be more specific about your time frame here? sure it could have a reaction back up, but how many have money to spare to support higher gold prices?

Mañana? Before June 28th.

If you think of paper gold as a form of credit, the collapse in prices means that credit is drying up. Nobody wants to lend their asset out anymore.
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June 26, 2013, 10:36:15 PM
 #5373

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.

can you be more specific about your time frame here? sure it could have a reaction back up, but how many have money to spare to support higher gold prices?

Mañana? Before June 28th.

If you think of paper gold as a form of credit, the collapse in prices means that credit is drying up. Nobody wants to lend their asset out anymore.

Okay... paper gold is a form of credit.  So, by selling a claim I own on gold, somehow I'm expressing that I want to hold onto my physical?  How does that work?  Aren't the lenders having their locked up assets returned to a liquid position, thus raising physical supply?

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
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June 26, 2013, 10:56:39 PM
 #5374

Okay... paper gold is a form of credit.  So, by selling a claim I own on gold, somehow I'm expressing that I want to hold onto my physical?  How does that work?  Aren't the lenders having their locked up assets returned to a liquid position, thus raising physical supply?
is a future contract for 100 OZ of gold

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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June 26, 2013, 11:16:21 PM
 #5375

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.

can you be more specific about your time frame here? sure it could have a reaction back up, but how many have money to spare to support higher gold prices?

Mañana? Before June 28th.

If you think of paper gold as a form of credit, the collapse in prices means that credit is drying up. Nobody wants to lend their asset out anymore.

To clarify my question, do you mean it is wise to go long on gold? And for how long?

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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June 26, 2013, 11:17:32 PM
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Okay... paper gold is a form of credit.  So, by selling a claim I own on gold, somehow I'm expressing that I want to hold onto my physical?  How does that work?  Aren't the lenders having their locked up assets returned to a liquid position, thus raising physical supply?

Passing a claim on to the next trader is a hot potato scenario. Redeeming  those claims for physical would be like a bank calling in outstanding loans.

Any other asset would simply stick the holder with an item that would have to be traded, i.e. less liquid. Gold is effectively cash when other forms of money fail to maintain that purpose.

While the dollar still works fine for the average person, it is not for kings (institutional class entities). Gold is returning to a metric of value among the largest pools of wealth, and therefore increased liquidity.

Edit: corrected hot potato reference.
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June 26, 2013, 11:58:09 PM
 #5377

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.

can you be more specific about your time frame here? sure it could have a reaction back up, but how many have money to spare to support higher gold prices?

Mañana? Before June 28th.

If you think of paper gold as a form of credit, the collapse in prices means that credit is drying up. Nobody wants to lend their asset out anymore.

Okay... paper gold is a form of credit.  So, by selling a claim I own on gold, somehow I'm expressing that I want to hold onto my physical?  How does that work?  Aren't the lenders having their locked up assets returned to a liquid position, thus raising physical supply?

Miners are the only ones who will hedge their physical supply before they go in the market and actually sell it. This is a general commodity notion used to ensure that volatility does not affect profit and numbers are known ahead of the sale. Problem is that now most of the trades are not backed at all and are leveraged. JPM doesn't even have gold backing for its multi-billion dollar short sales of paper gold, its inventories are depleted yet it continues to put on firesales with no backing. Another issue is that before you actually intend to hedge your physical supply you must let the broker know you intend to hedge based on physical supply so you are matched against someone who wants to buy physically, or the bank is forced to take physical delivery if they are the market maker. This is kind of odd behaviour for a market which will puts extra checks in to the trader who owns the gold so they can make special arrangements for this person when the market was created for intentions of buying/selling physical commodities and not "paper" commodities. The "paper" commodities is said to create liquidity allowing physical to get better pricing, but to me is doesn't add up, as alot of hte times a big order is front-ran as soon ppl find out there is phyiscal order they become the market maker for that order making profit by placing a trade as the order is being placed.

If a big trader or company comes in to the market buying with intentions of physical delivery, more than what the inventory exists for that bank then this where the problem lies. The fact that ppl have been requesting their gold inventories and yet jpm still behaves like a 5 yr old child baffles me... but then again they have the gov't in their back pocket so there's nothing to see move along. I love the lassiez-faire attitude that these criminals have knowing that nothign will be done and even the fact that nothing is wrong.
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June 27, 2013, 06:21:20 AM
 #5378

For the record, if I held DZZ or other good short positions, I would liquidate all of them tomorrow.

must be some sort of subliminal capitulation  Wink
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June 27, 2013, 06:23:24 AM
 #5379

The blood in the markets is accelerating....be greedy remember when it gets really really bad.

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June 27, 2013, 06:24:59 AM
 #5380

The blood in the markets is accelerating.

Where?
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