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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808626 times)
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2013, 12:46:47 AM
 #6641

I would be very interested to learn the particulars of eleuthria's political naivete.  He has been quite good on network decentralization issues I feel.

He has been open and sensitive to political issue - he has avoided many of my questions though.
I can only speculate but it is my belief to whom much is given much is expected.

A pool doesn't need to be the equivalent of today's political parties it can be dynamic and still impart proportional representation to it's contributing members.  

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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oakpacific
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November 20, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
 #6642

Much of the worries about mining problem seems unwarranted, the degree of the decentralization of the network is limited by mostly two factors only: the Bitcoin price and its adoption rate.

Had miners been able to receive a yearly revenue as much as that of Paypal, at 10 times the hashrate of current network a USB ASIC miner is still able to remain significantly profitable.

Also, USB miner consumes negligible amount of power, why not just consider your power cost to be spent on buying some lottery tickets? Billions of people bought them each year, what's different when it comes to Bitcoin mining?

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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November 20, 2013, 01:38:57 AM
 #6643


3) Schumer sounded like she was on the Bitcoin payroll today not nearly as confident and prepared as yesterday. All in all she was the highlight of the hearing.



Wait what? She?

doubletake...

Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 20, 2013, 01:39:29 AM
 #6644

cypher,

I admit I was too busy watching the developments to actually listen to the hearings. It appears I should. Reserve currency status, tax haven... The mere mention of such things is surprising enough.

This makes me think the next wave is coming very soon. Gears must be turning in many people's heads, many powerful people's heads.

One important difference between Bitcoin and a market commodity is the landgrab aspect. So many people, consciously or not, are thinking of Bitcoin as something to buy low and sell high. A few of us, including of course rpietila and you I'm sure, understand that it's about how many coins you can get. There's no exit. Bitcoin is the ultimate exit - the Bitcoin standard. You can doubt that Bitcoin will succeed and hedge accordingly, but insofar as you believe it will succeed it should be viewed as a landgrab rather than a "buy low, sell high" trade (except with a small portion in order to accumulate more).

As people realize this, the bubbles could come faster and faster, since the dynamic is making that subtle switch from netting maximum fiat to netting maximum coin.
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 20, 2013, 01:50:20 AM
 #6645

I hate governments BECAUSE they're beasts with many heads.

HOWEVER Bitcoin will be victorious because of this very feature as well: one by one everyone will abandon ship governments out of self-interest. (think Soviet Union)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. As the rats jump from the ship, the S.S. Bitcoin will be waiting for them with open arms. Not only that, its very presence will allow people to secure their exit before they've actually taken the plunge...and make money even in the interim while they're making up their minds.
cypherdoc
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November 20, 2013, 02:06:27 AM
 #6646

I hate governments BECAUSE they're beasts with many heads.

HOWEVER Bitcoin will be victorious because of this very feature as well: one by one everyone will abandon ship governments out of self-interest. (think Soviet Union)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. As the rats jump from the ship, the S.S. Bitcoin will be waiting for them with open arms. Not only that, its very presence will allow people to secure their exit before they've actually taken the plunge...and make money even if they decide not to jump ship entirely.

while i think TPTB do understand Bitcoin, there's no urgency yet.

until something like the stock market cracks and we go into the next recession, which could be pretty deep, all's well and ppl will bide their time.

the question has always been, when is that going to happen?  can infinite money printing forestall the inevitable?
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2013, 02:09:47 AM
 #6647


3) Schumer sounded like she was on the Bitcoin payroll today not nearly as confident and prepared as yesterday. All in all she was the highlight of the hearing.



Wait what? She?

doubletake...
mmm.... yes Schumer is a man LOL

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2013, 02:23:00 AM
 #6648

cypher,

I admit I was too busy watching the developments to actually listen to the hearings. It appears I should. Reserve currency status, tax haven... The mere mention of such things is surprising enough.

This makes me think the next wave is coming very soon. Gears must be turning in many people's heads, many powerful people's heads.

One important difference between Bitcoin and a market commodity is the landgrab aspect. So many people, consciously or not, are thinking of Bitcoin as something to buy low and sell high. A few of us, including of course rpietila and you I'm sure, understand that it's about how many coins you can get. There's no exit. Bitcoin is the ultimate exit - the Bitcoin standard. You can doubt that Bitcoin will succeed and hedge accordingly, but insofar as you believe it will succeed it should be viewed as a landgrab rather than a "buy low, sell high" trade (except with a small portion in order to accumulate more).

As people realize this, the bubbles could come faster and faster, since the dynamic is making that subtle switch from netting maximum fiat to netting maximum coin.

It is about accumulating more wealth in Bitcoin, - for a few players this means actually letting some go so there net worth in Bitcoin can go up. Just how few and when to let them trickle out is the question.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 20, 2013, 02:24:52 AM
 #6649

here's the link to the entire hearing:

http://c-spanvideo.org/program/VirtualCu
SkRRJyTC
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November 20, 2013, 03:07:18 AM
 #6650

here's the link to the entire hearing:

http://c-spanvideo.org/program/VirtualCu

Thanks!
rocks
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November 20, 2013, 03:44:28 AM
 #6651

Quote
I think many people on here coming from a libertarian (I'm in that category) or full-out anarchy philosophy tend to view government as one giant beast, whose actions are coordinated and deliberate. I think the reality is that gov is a loose collection of individuals, most of whom just want to do their jobs, maybe get some praise every now and then, and take home a paycheck. Regulators want to meet their mandates, law enforcement wants to catch people who break the law, the Fed wants to meet their inflation and employment targets, and politicians want to get re-elected. The notion that there's a coordinated well-thought-out deliberate conspiracy across agencies, involving calculated strategic deception, to twart bitcoin as a threat to a devious fiat banking regime is....naive. Government is not coordinated. The individuals that comprise it are generally not that visionary. Agencies are composed of a wide array of individuals with all manner of their own ideologies.

I've raised this exact point myself. I call it the collectivist fallacy, and it's one most libertarians fall into. Once this misconception is cleared away it becomes apparent that Bitcoin won't necessarily encounter much resistance from petty bureaucrats as it doesn't directly affect them, or at least it won't seem to them that it will be able to affect them by the time they leave office.

Nevertheless, there are powerful people who do see sound money as a direct threat, and they would see Bitcoin as a threat if only they understood it AND believed there was a decent chance it could take over. The ECB report and others suggest at least some of them see the threat. But do they understand how clear and present it is? Maybe they are too slow to care, but if they did understand they only have two options that I can see: 1) Attempt to suppress it, or 2) Buy in massively.

Fully agree with the sentiments above, that government is not a coordinated entity and most individuals just want to do their jobs, and as a result there will not be a coordinated attempt to take down bitcoin. As long as Bitcoin does not directly interfere with day to day activities, the government will largely take a Laissez-faire approach.

However, in times of crisis governments have been shown time and time again to create scapegoats and look for causes. During the depression FDR constantly railed against "hoarders", i.e. those who saved their money, and devalued savings for the greater good.

The US government has been living beyond it's means and the taxpayer's means for a long time. If Bitcoin emerges as a sound money system which in turn forces the US gov to live within its means, that will awaken individuals in government who no longer can spend money at will. Anyone looking for a scapegoat will not have to look far...
Zangelbert Bingledack
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November 20, 2013, 03:58:20 AM
 #6652

I think if Bitcoin is doing enough business to be a credible scapegoat it will already be too late for them to do much.
User705
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November 20, 2013, 05:53:08 AM
 #6653

I think if Bitcoin is doing enough business to be a credible scapegoat it will already be too late for them to do much.
That's what surprised me about all of this.  I've always thought that a ban in some sort of way will come before a grudging acceptance.  They can't be that arrogant to not realize that the genie can't be put back in the bottle if you let it get to wide acceptance.
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November 20, 2013, 06:23:20 AM
 #6654

I hate governments BECAUSE they're beasts with many heads.

HOWEVER Bitcoin will be victorious because of this very feature as well: one by one everyone will abandon ship governments out of self-interest. (think Soviet Union)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. As the rats jump from the ship, the S.S. Bitcoin will be waiting for them with open arms. Not only that, its very presence will allow people to secure their exit before they've actually taken the plunge...and make money even in the interim while they're making up their minds.



Quote from: Bernanke
This is the captain of the s.s. fiat regime speaking. We are going down! [siren]. Fiat pumps are working on full load, but we are going down too fast! Everyone to the lifeboats. The paths are designated with Bitcoin logos! There is not enough room for everybody, don't panic, I repeat [siren] DON'T PANIC

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domob
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November 20, 2013, 06:55:19 AM
 #6655

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

This isn't a surprise, IMHO.  In fact, I would think that probably in a lot of countries already existing taxes on capital gains apply.  This totally makes sense, doesn't it?  Just because you made your money with Bitcoins doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes on it (at least when you decide to go to fiat at some point).

sure it can make some sense, but this will be pretty hard to implement unless everyone in norway uses a norwegian exchange.
i sure as hell aint telling them about my mining / trading Tongue

on the other hand, any losses would be a nice little tax write off Wink

Sorry for the OT here on this thread, this will be my last reply here.  Well, I think they can; at least if they want to know where that 10.000 or 100.000 Euro transaction from Slovenia or Poland comes from, you will need a good way to explain to them how you made that money without the obligation to pay taxes.  Of course, if you only to real-life transactions and sell for cash or gold and afterwards just stash the cash and use it, they won't know about that.  But if you want to buy a flat, for instance (like that other guy from Norway), you have to "officially" get the money somehow and then they will come asking where it is from if the sum is large enough.

Use your Namecoin identity as OpenID: https://nameid.org/
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Siegfried
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November 20, 2013, 07:12:24 AM
 #6656

cypher,


One important difference between Bitcoin and a market commodity is the landgrab aspect. So many people, consciously or not, are thinking of Bitcoin as something to buy low and sell high. A few of us, including of course rpietila and you I'm sure, understand that it's about how many coins you can get. There's no exit. Bitcoin is the ultimate exit - the Bitcoin standard. You can doubt that Bitcoin will succeed and hedge accordingly, but insofar as you believe it will succeed it should be viewed as a landgrab rather than a "buy low, sell high" trade (except with a small portion in order to accumulate more).

As people realize this, the bubbles could come faster and faster, since the dynamic is making that subtle switch from netting maximum fiat to netting maximum coin.

Exactly. I like rpietila's thread about bitcoin wealth distribution. Every time I buy bitcoins, I think about how many rungs up the ladder I have climbed. Knowing that I am among the top **** thousand bitcoin owners in the world makes me very happy indeed.
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November 20, 2013, 10:17:22 AM
 #6657

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

This isn't a surprise, IMHO.  In fact, I would think that probably in a lot of countries already existing taxes on capital gains apply.  This totally makes sense, doesn't it?  Just because you made your money with Bitcoins doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes on it (at least when you decide to go to fiat at some point).

sure it can make some sense, but this will be pretty hard to implement unless everyone in norway uses a norwegian exchange.
i sure as hell aint telling them about my mining / trading Tongue

on the other hand, any losses would be a nice little tax write off Wink

Sorry for the OT here on this thread, this will be my last reply here.  Well, I think they can; at least if they want to know where that 10.000 or 100.000 Euro transaction from Slovenia or Poland comes from, you will need a good way to explain to them how you made that money without the obligation to pay taxes.  Of course, if you only to real-life transactions and sell for cash or gold and afterwards just stash the cash and use it, they won't know about that.  But if you want to buy a flat, for instance (like that other guy from Norway), you have to "officially" get the money somehow and then they will come asking where it is from if the sum is large enough.

1. Leave Norway
2. Profit?

jojo69
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November 20, 2013, 10:20:23 AM
 #6658

ahhh, how much of my life has been longing for a jurisdiction to which I could peaceably submit...

This is not some pseudoeconomic post-modern Libertarian cult, it's an un-led, crowd-sourced mega startup organized around mutual self-interest where problems, whether of the theoretical or purely practical variety, are treated as temporary and, ultimately, solvable.
Censorship of e-gold was easy. Censorship of Bitcoin will be… entertaining.
Badonkadonk
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November 20, 2013, 01:36:43 PM
 #6659

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

This isn't a surprise, IMHO.  In fact, I would think that probably in a lot of countries already existing taxes on capital gains apply.  This totally makes sense, doesn't it?  Just because you made your money with Bitcoins doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes on it (at least when you decide to go to fiat at some point).

sure it can make some sense, but this will be pretty hard to implement unless everyone in norway uses a norwegian exchange.
i sure as hell aint telling them about my mining / trading Tongue

on the other hand, any losses would be a nice little tax write off Wink

Sorry for the OT here on this thread, this will be my last reply here.  Well, I think they can; at least if they want to know where that 10.000 or 100.000 Euro transaction from Slovenia or Poland comes from, you will need a good way to explain to them how you made that money without the obligation to pay taxes.  Of course, if you only to real-life transactions and sell for cash or gold and afterwards just stash the cash and use it, they won't know about that.  But if you want to buy a flat, for instance (like that other guy from Norway), you have to "officially" get the money somehow and then they will come asking where it is from if the sum is large enough.

the easiest way would be to leave fiat in the exchanges and f2f trade btc for cash yes.
or just not do massive amount transfers that make the little red lights turn on.

or i could just move to Germany Wink

cypherdoc
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November 20, 2013, 04:50:57 PM
 #6660

Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin UP.
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