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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803408 times)
klee
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November 19, 2013, 06:42:14 PM
 #6601

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I gather you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

Right now my best read is that most of these regulators don't comprehend the full extent of what is happening. I'd like it to stay that way. Most of them will be out of a job if Bitcoin succeeds. Big government is very hard to do without money printing, whether they realize that or not.

they already realize the threat.  the papers over the last 2 yrs from the ECB, Nicholas Plassaras/IMF, the Chicago Fed, the FBI, etc. all point to that fact.  this was also mentioned yesterday by Shassky.  they have been concentrating on Bitcoin for 2 yrs now and i'm sure they have a full understanding of it.  they aren't stupid.  it would be a mistake to assume so.  but that doesn't necessarily mean they will go nuclear and try to kill Bitcoin.  based on what they said yesterday, the opposite could happen.  the price itself is telling us this will be so.  Bitcoin could be used to save the US from it's financial problems if they let it rise to it's natural level and even use it to replace the Gold Standard from 1971.  this is what i have argued could/should be Bitcoin's final destiny:

back the USD with Bitcoin.
I bet the BRICS will issue first a basket currency including bitcoin...

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November 19, 2013, 07:13:59 PM
 #6602

yep.  and don't forget they already own the top address.  that's a good start despite the way they obtained it was kinda scummy.

nonetheless, at the very least, i think they have gone neutral.  a hands off approach is just as good as an embrace right now.  that could come later.

Scummy to bring the violence back to the drug war?
Scummy to sit by and watch as their perp allegedly put a hit on someone, knowing that he is just making more bitcoin for ol' uncle Sam the longer they let him keep it going, and then wait until he receives travel documents to enable him to leave the jurisdiction before they collar him?

Scummy is faint praise, it was calculatingly ruthless, worthy of the godfather of the worlds biggest protection racket.  Pure police poetry.  They laughed all the way to the treasury on that one.

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November 19, 2013, 07:15:33 PM
 #6603

yep.  and don't forget they already own the top address.  that's a good start despite the way they obtained it was kinda scummy.

nonetheless, at the very least, i think they have gone neutral.  a hands off approach is just as good as an embrace right now.  that could come later.

Scummy to bring the violence back to the drug war?
Scummy to sit by and watch as their perp allegedly put a hit on someone, knowing that he is just making more bitcoin for ol' uncle Sam the longer they let him keep it going, and then wait until he receives travel documents to enable him to leave the jurisdiction before they collar him?

Scummy is faint praise, it was calculatingly ruthless, worthy of the godfather of the worlds biggest protection racket.  Pure police poetry.  They laughed all the way to the treasury on that one.

Wasn't it DPR who gave them the passkey?
molecular
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November 19, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
 #6604

Doesn't matter as long as it makes you wealthy. Cheesy

Yes it does matter. I don't want to live in a "New World Order" world, not even at the top. There's fear everywhere. Fear sucks.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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November 19, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
 #6605

Doesn't matter as long as it makes you wealthy. Cheesy

Yes it does matter. I don't want to live in a "New World Order" world, not even at the top. There's fear everywhere. Fear sucks.


Whatever the system, I'd rather be at the top than the bottom.

Anyway, come on! Blacklisting will only work if you confirm to their reality. Just don't. A coin is a coin. Pecunia non olet.

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November 19, 2013, 07:53:40 PM
 #6606

Quote
Somebody here said that Bitcoin is like a blob. You hit it and it assimilates you.

That was me Grin

We are Bitcoin. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!

miscreanity
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November 19, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
 #6607

Doesn't matter as long as it makes you wealthy. Cheesy
Yes it does matter. I don't want to live in a "New World Order" world, not even at the top. There's fear everywhere. Fear sucks.

Bingo.

Too much attention is being directed toward regulation. There is a very small subset of society that is even familiar with Bitcoin, let alone truly understands the potential as related to finance. Even fewer comprehend the impact the blockchain can have in fields outside of money.

With the complex, multi-faceted nature of Bitcoin, there is a great deal of room to engage in obfuscation. There was more said in the hearing yesterday through what wasn't said.

The core of Bitcoin is young, resilient, and vibrant - for now. However, it can be shrouded just as derivatives masked destruction in financial instruments.
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November 19, 2013, 08:36:52 PM
 #6608

I've long come to terms with the likelihood that if Bitcoin is to have any success, it will be corrupted. The greatest manifestation of this was in March, when a group of developers and pool ops colluded to pick a particular chain over another. While everyone cheered at how well it was handled, I died a little inside over the brainwashing Bitcoiners have subjected themselves to and the ignorance to this problem. We have what I believe to be benign devs and pool ops now, but it will not always be so.

I do not believe for one second that most Bitcoin users are or will ever again be able to read and analyze open source code or even to adequately judge the opinions of those who can and "vote" for that which is in their interest. Neither do I believe that ASIC ownership will stay as distributed as it is now once profit margins tighten and it becomes a game of electricity prices and wholesale.

And then, there is of course the block size issue. We increase the block size, we will increase centralization due to higher requirements for nodes. Block size stays the same, people will inevitably be forced to use third parties to transact BTC as blockchain transaction fees skyrocket.

Decentralization comes with costs. That is why normally, markets favor centralization. It is to be seen how great they are.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
domob
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November 19, 2013, 08:38:32 PM
 #6609

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

This isn't a surprise, IMHO.  In fact, I would think that probably in a lot of countries already existing taxes on capital gains apply.  This totally makes sense, doesn't it?  Just because you made your money with Bitcoins doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes on it (at least when you decide to go to fiat at some point).

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November 19, 2013, 08:47:34 PM
 #6610

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

This isn't a surprise, IMHO.  In fact, I would think that probably in a lot of countries already existing taxes on capital gains apply.  This totally makes sense, doesn't it?  Just because you made your money with Bitcoins doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes on it (at least when you decide to go to fiat at some point).

Capital gain (or any wealth tax) does not make sense. Taxing the actual profits however is worse.


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November 19, 2013, 08:53:13 PM
 #6611


that is the pessimistic view.  i was meaning to comment on this given i think that miscreanity is also guilty of this.  which is precisely why he missed the speed of how fast this is all happening.  in his case, i know where he came from so i give him a pass.  you, otoh, sound like you were born and raised here in the good 'ol US of A.  

one of the major problems around these parts, especially amongst the geeks, is that they are highly suspicious and subject to paranoia.  i saw this regularly during the depression of 2011.  high intelligence seems to make one esp. subject to FUD.  i'm not saying they don't have a right to be but in this case when it comes to what was said in yesterdays hearings, it will pay to be optimistic.  those weren't dumb people testifying yesterday.  especially Shassky.  you can see the intelligence/fire in her eyes.  maybe i might be biased b/c she's a woman and a former athlete, but i think i'm reading her right.  both of those are pluses in my book.  she understands what's going down.  they all do.  they don't have any choice.  

remember that their goal is to keep the US financial system in the top spot.  does everyone here really think that they are too dumb to see the problem with money printing?  i don't.  they just said that they see Bitcoin as financial innovation and are going to let it ride.  they are going to focus on the money transmitters, not Bitcoin itself.  that is a great sign. sometimes one has to temper their pessimism and just listen to what they say. how anyone can think they were just putting on a show is beyond me.  we may have just made it through the window i have spoken about.

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.


Agreed. I think many people on here coming from a libertarian (I'm in that category) or full-out anarchy philosophy tend to view government as one giant beast, whose actions are coordinated and deliberate. I think the reality is that gov is a loose collection of individuals, most of whom just want to do their jobs, maybe get some praise every now and then, and take home a paycheck. Regulators want to meet their mandates, law enforcement wants to catch people who break the law, the Fed wants to meet their inflation and employment targets, and politicians want to get re-elected.

The notion that there's a coordinated well-thought-out deliberate conspiracy across agencies, involving calculated strategic deception, to twart bitcoin as a threat to a devious fiat banking regime is....naive. Government is not coordinated. The individuals that comprise it are generally not that visionary. Agencies are composed of a wide array of individuals with all manner of their own ideologies.

In short, applying Occam's Razor to the situation, I think yesterday's hearing was pretty simple: The agencies represented think that they already have enough legislatively-granted tools in place to meet their mandates with respect to stopping crime involving virtual currencies. Pretty simple. Most people just want to do their jobs well, and that's that.




Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
Melbustus
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November 19, 2013, 08:56:52 PM
 #6612

I've long come to terms with the likelihood that if Bitcoin is to have any success, it will be corrupted.
...
And then, there is of course the block size issue. We increase the block size, we will increase centralization due to higher requirements for nodes. Block size stays the same, people will inevitably be forced to use third parties to transact BTC as blockchain transaction fees skyrocket.


Just for reference with regard to the blocksize issue and and the original intent of bitcoin:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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November 19, 2013, 09:06:13 PM
 #6613

They get it! I wouldn't expect them to drop terms like sha-256 and ecdsa but they get the basic concept! And with the Senator knowing that a stolen private key can be used to modify the public ledger! How far we have come

edit: YES! they even get that you can use Bitcoin to hedge against unstable inflation!

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Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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November 19, 2013, 09:32:21 PM
 #6614

They get it! I wouldn't expect them to drop terms like sha-256 and ecdsa but they get the basic concept! And with the Senator knowing that a stolen private key can be used to modify the public ledger! How far we have come

edit: YES! they even get that you can use Bitcoin to hedge against unstable inflation!

very impresses with some staffers today, yes

This is not some pseudoeconomic post-modern Libertarian cult, it's an un-led, crowd-sourced mega startup organized around mutual self-interest where problems, whether of the theoretical or purely practical variety, are treated as temporary and, ultimately, solvable.
Censorship of e-gold was easy. Censorship of Bitcoin will be… entertaining.
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November 19, 2013, 09:34:49 PM
 #6615

the norwegian gov is implementing a 28% tax on all btc profitts.
whalecum to reality Sad

This isn't a surprise, IMHO.  In fact, I would think that probably in a lot of countries already existing taxes on capital gains apply.  This totally makes sense, doesn't it?  Just because you made your money with Bitcoins doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes on it (at least when you decide to go to fiat at some point).

sure it can make some sense, but this will be pretty hard to implement unless everyone in norway uses a norwegian exchange.
i sure as hell aint telling them about my mining / trading Tongue

on the other hand, any losses would be a nice little tax write off Wink

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November 19, 2013, 10:05:28 PM
 #6616

They get it! I wouldn't expect them to drop terms like sha-256 and ecdsa but they get the basic concept! And with the Senator knowing that a stolen private key can be used to modify the public ledger! How far we have come

edit: YES! they even get that you can use Bitcoin to hedge against unstable inflation!

very impresses with some staffers today, yes

I'm even impressed by Sen. Schumer now.

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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November 19, 2013, 10:08:16 PM
 #6617

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I think you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

And what if they see the writing on the wall?  And they decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"?  Being in a position of power, if you could see that bitcoin could really become the world reserve currency, how about buying a f*ckload with your own money?

Yeah that's the fun part, but I don't think it's realistic for any more than a few people to be wise to this yet. Bitcoin is difficult to understand.
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November 19, 2013, 10:08:37 PM
 #6618

The cool thing with elder folk is that they've lived through so many paradigm-shifting technical innovations in their lifetime, why can't Bitcoin be one too? Smiley

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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November 19, 2013, 10:15:06 PM
 #6619

They get it! I wouldn't expect them to drop terms like sha-256 and ecdsa but they get the basic concept! And with the Senator knowing that a stolen private key can be used to modify the public ledger! How far we have come

edit: YES! they even get that you can use Bitcoin to hedge against unstable inflation!

the best part was that Shassky understands that Bitcoin can be used as a legitimate store of value.
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November 19, 2013, 10:20:06 PM
 #6620

the gold bugs believe in the end of the world and the internet.  i don't.  that Armageddon play itself is doomed.  Bitcoin doesn't mean Armageddon, it is financial innovation.  i think the US will somehow weave it's way through the mess we find ourselves in and incorporate Bitcoin in some very useful way.  yes, it will take time.  that is indeed optimistic isn't it?  but Bitcoin is going to prove to be a powerful tool that will benefit all of mankind and i think the US realizes it can't afford to shun it.

I'm both more optimistic and more pessimistic or wary than I think you are. I'm more optimistic about what Bitcoin will achieve for the world, but more wary about what the central bankers will do when they realize the extent of the threat. I'm not saying I necessarily expect these government people to be up in arms, but I expect someone in the power elite to be. Probably many people. I'm not necessarily pessimistic, just wary of what kind of attacks will come. I don't think the banking dynasties will give up without an epic fight, if they aren't too blindsided to wage one.

And what if they see the writing on the wall?  And they decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"?  Being in a position of power, if you could see that bitcoin could really become the world reserve currency, how about buying a f*ckload with your own money?

Yeah that's the fun part, but I don't think it's realistic for any more than a few people to be wise to this yet. Bitcoin is difficult to understand.

yeah, as much as i've been hammering about how they understand it, man, it was painful watching Shassky take a dive on the "cryptology" and private key part.  Wink
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