Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[tabnloz]

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

I dont think M of A was trying to be rude to you specifically

But anyway, I think this tweet sums up the line of thinking that says blockchain and currency cant be separated

@gendal: @robustus @Chris_Skinner @jonmatonis If you want decentralisation/censorship resistance/no central control, you need a native currency

[brg444]

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

sheesh, i didn't bother to read this until now. It's just a bunch of VC-titillating fluffy buzzwords, no-one with a serious intention for examining this technology should be taking shit like this seriously.

If that is your "must read" "nailed it" material you are going to lose a lot of dough lady.

I think his point may be that you ought to have some balance in your opinion of the blockchain vs. bitcoin debate.

Uninformed proponents championing the possibilities made possible by blockchain tech and dismissing the bitcoin money value should not have you ignore such possibilities.

At the same time, it does seem like putting the cart before the horse. All of the concepts in this article are well ahead in the future and can only truly be realized with the foundation of bitcoin the money.

[Adrian-x]

Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

A meme being an evolutionary term, leaves one's lack of understand to a dead end.

While the blockchain is an immutable public ledger preserved for all time it can only preserve information that is equivalent to the value we give the currency. (Or something similar)

If the currency was removed and we just kept the blockchain who would be incentivized to protect it, the currently is the reason miners secure the network, it is the reason attacking the network is economically unsustainable. The value in currency ensures the blockchains existence. You can't have one with out the other.

Well there are the PoS proponents but they too weight the facts in a way that prevents them seeing the wood for the trees.
(All this ignorance means PoS will probably come into favor soonish, and then over time succumb to its shortcomings.)

[brg444]

Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

A meme being an evolutionary term, leaves one's lack of understand to a dead end.

While the blockchain is an immutable public ledger preserved for all time it can only preserve information that is equivalent to the value we give the currency. (Or something similar)

If the currency was removed and we just kept the blockchain who would be incentivized to protect it, the currently is the reason miners secure the network, it is the reason attacking the network is economically unsustainable. The value in currency ensures the blockchains existence. You can't have one with out the other.

Well there are the PoS proponents but they too weight the facts in a way that prevents them seeing the wood for the trees.
(All this ignorance means PoS will probably come into favor soonish, and then over time succumb to its shortcomings.)

PoS being the central bank to Bitcoin's gold, it is only right that incumbents cling on to familiarity in the face of the inevitable crypto revolution

[marcus_of_augustus]

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

I dont think M of A was trying to be rude to you specifically

But anyway, I think this tweet sums up the line of thinking that says blockchain and currency cant be separated

@gendal: @robustus @Chris_Skinner @jonmatonis If you want decentralisation/censorship resistance/no central control, you need a native currency

Yep ... I don't know who is saying this "blockchain not bitcoin" crap but nanobrain has been around long enough you would think, but nothing specific was being levelled at her.

Let's spell it out:

- a distributed consensus needs a database that is protected from cheating by the nodes

- the security for the bitcoin blockchain database is the grinding of the hashing algorithm that guards against cheating

- the P.O.W. hashing is incentivised by the reward provided by the issuance of bitcoin, yes the currency!

- the security of the distributed consensus does NOT function and will get attacked without a sufficiently valuable bitcoin

and at the end of the day what is this amazing blockchain?? It is a sequence of files that have the hash of the previous file included within them ... what? that is it? the true multi-trillion dollar invention here?  

In fact, the distributed global ledger is not the blockchain but the UTXO. The blockchain is merely the journal record of what TX took place ... who owns what is in the UTXO. That is where the innovation that bitcoin 2G tech will get built upon ...

"Blockchain Buzz" is last year now, sidechains is the final nail in the coffin for that BS.

[Adrian-x]

Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

A meme being an evolutionary term, leaves one's lack of understand to a dead end.

While the blockchain is an immutable public ledger preserved for all time it can only preserve information that is equivalent to the value we give the currency. (Or something similar)

If the currency was removed and we just kept the blockchain who would be incentivized to protect it, the currently is the reason miners secure the network, it is the reason attacking the network is economically unsustainable. The value in currency ensures the blockchains existence. You can't have one with out the other.

Well there are the PoS proponents but they too weight the facts in a way that prevents them seeing the wood for the trees.
(All this ignorance means PoS will probably come into favor soonish, and then over time succumb to its shortcomings.)

PoS being the central bank to Bitcoin's gold, it is only right that incumbents cling on to familiarity in the face of the inevitable crypto revolution

I feel the need to quote cypher (he loves being quoted) paraphrasing : "most who invest in cryptocurrency will probably lose money"

[molecular]

In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

I've understood the potential of bitcoin half way through satoshis paper without knowing anything about economics, not much about how money works and close to nothing about monetary history. I knew some crypto and had thought about "internet money" before. Maybe I had an open mind.

What I'm saying: I think you don't need all of the above. Maybe an open mind is a must, but I think you can scratch at least one of "tech/cs", "econ", "history" or "monetary theory" and still "get bitcoin".

[brg444]

In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

I've understood the potential of bitcoin half way through satoshis paper without knowing anything about economics, not much about how money works and close to nothing about monetary history. I knew some crypto and had thought about "internet money" before. Maybe I had an open mind.

What I'm saying: I think you don't need all of the above. Maybe an open mind is a must, but I think you can scratch at least one of "tech/cs", "econ", "history" or "monetary theory" and still "get bitcoin".

I think emphasis here is on *truly* get in as in understand all the implications.

I too got hooked fairly quickly but it is not until I educated myself about the history of money as a ledger, by proxy of learning about Bitcoin, that I *truly* got it. 

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

And why it matters to truly get Bitcoin comes up in all sorts of contexts:

• Should I invest in altcoins?
• Can governments kill it?
• Does switching to bits mean inflation?
• What would be the effects of sidechains, or of spin-offs?
• Can I be sure the coins will hold value?
• Will mining centralization destroy Bitcoin?
• Can the blockchain be separated from the currency?
• Are premines an acceptable way of funding innovation?
• Does the price drop mean Bitcoin is losing popularity?
• What really gives bitcoins their value?
• Is the sky falling?
• Should I start a business, or invest in a business, doing X?

You can see examples of wrong answers to these questions every day, and how the wrong answers drive misguided decisions (and usually lost money).

[cbeast]

And why it matters to truly get Bitcoin comes up in all sorts of contexts:

• Should I invest in altcoins?
• Can governments kill it?
• Does switching to bits mean inflation?
• What would be the effects of sidechains, or of spin-offs?
• Can I be sure the coins will hold value?
• Will mining centralization destroy Bitcoin?
• Can the blockchain be separated from the currency?
• Are premines an acceptable way of funding innovation?
• Does the price drop mean Bitcoin is losing popularity?
• What really gives bitcoins their value?
• Is the sky falling?
• Should I start a business, or invest in a business, doing X?

You can see examples of wrong answers to these questions every day, and how the wrong answers drive misguided decisions (and usually lost money).

This list needs to go into an FAQ.

[cbeast]

Bitcoin needs a comic book to eli5 it's concepts.

[Wekkel]

I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

Here are some links to help deepen understanding of Bitcoin and its implications, updated from here:

Money as Memory

Wences Casares talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQTI1OFFFdw&t=2m49s
Polished video of the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8
Casares again, on Big Think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKkfhi8Eaiw
In text form: https://xapo.com/post/what-is-bitcoin-the-best-money-in-human-history/
Peter R on Money as Memory: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9247581#msg9247581
From the Fed's own mouth: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf
AJ on Money as Memory: http://libertyhq.freeforums.org/fed-economist-predicts-bitcoin-will-end-the-fed-t938-20.html
AJ on What Bitcoin Is: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/31743.aspx
Peter R on spin-offs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.300

Natural Order

I, Pencil video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE
I, Pencil essay: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil
How Wolves Change Rivers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q
The Obviousness of Anarchy: http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf
The Depoliticization of Law: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebsite/TIL.PDF
AJ on Why Anarchy Fails and Succeeds: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/8889.aspx
AJ on Emergent Order: http://archive.freecapitalists.org//forums/t/18619.aspx
Emergent Networks: http://greatestinstruments.net/the-rise-of-emergent-networks-part-2-of-2/
Decentralized Society and Bitcoin Contracts: http://prezi.com/vfdcr18qie2w/decentralized-society-and-bitcoin-contracts/
The Myth of Science as a Public Good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_PVI6V6o-4
Hayek, The Fatal Conceit (google it)

Panarchy

Balaji Srinivasan, Silicon Valley's Ultimate Exit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A&t=1m0s
http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/
http://www.panarchy.org/knott/bitcoin.html

Economics

Economics in One Lesson (google it)
Applying Economics to American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I
Libertarian Gallop through American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRhtmcxDSIs&t=3m15s
and many more

Investing

rpietila's SSS: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0
Social Role of investors:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mb27q/bitcoins_vast_overvaluation_appears_caused_by/cc7i6y8
and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678866.5
and many more

Smart Contracts

Nick Szabo: http://ojphi.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/548/469

General

Rumors of Bitcoin's Death Greatly Exaggerated: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/p/32931/512864.aspx
ZB on the philosophy of bitcoin (summary): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230416.msg2450191#msg2450191

Future Applications

Mike Hearn's 2012 talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA
Decentralized prediction markets via spin-offs or sidechains: http://www.truthcoin.info/
much more here

[brg444]

Here are some links to help deepen understanding of Bitcoin and its implications, updated from here:

Money as Memory

Wences Casares talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQTI1OFFFdw&t=2m49s
Polished video of the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8
Peter R on Money as Memory: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9247581#msg9247581
From the Fed's own mouth: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf
AJ on Money as Memory: http://libertyhq.freeforums.org/fed-economist-predicts-bitcoin-will-end-the-fed-t938-20.html
AJ on What Bitcoin Is: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/31743.aspx
Peter R on spin-offs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.300

Natural Order

I, Pencil video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE
I, Pencil essay: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil
How Wolves Change Rivers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q
The Obviousness of Anarchy: http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf
The Depoliticization of Law: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebsite/TIL.PDF
AJ on Why Anarchy Fails and Succeeds: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/8889.aspx
AJ on Emergent Order: http://archive.freecapitalists.org//forums/t/18619.aspx
Emergent Networks: http://greatestinstruments.net/the-rise-of-emergent-networks-part-2-of-2/
Decentralized Society and Bitcoin Contracts: http://prezi.com/vfdcr18qie2w/decentralized-society-and-bitcoin-contracts/
The Myth of Science as a Public Good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_PVI6V6o-4
Hayek, The Fatal Conceit (google it)

Panarchy

Balaji Srinivasan, Silicon Valley's Ultimate Exit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A&t=1m0s
http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/
http://www.panarchy.org/knott/bitcoin.html

Economics

Economics in One Lesson (google it)
Applying Economics to American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I
Libertarian Gallop through American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRhtmcxDSIs&t=3m15s
and many more

Investing

rpietila's SSS: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0
Social Role of investors:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mb27q/bitcoins_vast_overvaluation_appears_caused_by/cc7i6y8
and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678866.5
and many more

Smart Contracts

Nick Szabo: http://ojphi.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/548/469

General

Rumors of Bitcoin's Death Greatly Exaggerated: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/p/32931/512864.aspx
ZB on the philosophy of bitcoin (summary): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230416.msg2450191#msg2450191

Future Applications

Mike Hearn's 2012 talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA
Decentralized prediction markets via spin-offs or sidechains: http://www.truthcoin.info/
much more here

Fantastic list, much appreciated

[bitrider]

I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

This is how I see it. As an investor and monetary activist  I obviously need to "understand Bitcoin". But for mass adoption this is not necessary. Bitcoin/ledger either works and serves as better money/memory, or it does not. If it does, it becomes the future and will be used by everyone (and everything I see suggests this is exactly what is happening). Most everyone will never understand anything more about bitcoin than they do about http - they will only care that it works, is safe, freeing and reliable. "Education" will happen on its own.

[Melbustus]

I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

This is how I see it. As an investor and monetary activist  I obviously need to "understand Bitcoin". But for mass adoption this is not necessary. Bitcoin/ledger either works and serves as better money/memory, or it does not. If it does, it becomes the future and will be used by everyone (and everything I see suggests this is exactly what is happening). Most everyone will never understand anything more about bitcoin than they do about http - they will only care that it works, is safe, freeing and reliable. "Education" will happen on its own.

Indeed, but it *does* take that kernel of people who thoroughly understand it to bootstrap it to the point where the natural benefits can permeate to more people. That's what's happened faster than I assumed it would.

As Wences says, (paraphrasing) it's more amazing for bitcoin to have gone from nothing to where it is today, than to go from where it is today to 1-billion+ users.

[inca]

What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.

[molecular]

What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.

Did you hear his talk at the 2011 bitcoin conference in Prague, too? It's worth a watch, although parts are similar to the 2012 London one.

[cypherdoc]

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

[justusranvier]

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.