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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 107971 times)
hgmichna
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August 25, 2012, 08:39:04 AM
 #1101

There's a difference between being skeptical and calling someone a scammer.

Yes. In this case the difference was the same as between having no brain and having one.

Or, in some cases it was the difference between profiting from the scam and being honest.

Most of the FUDsters were claiming 100% irrefutable proof, when none existed.

This is the typical garbage to be expected from you. Outside of mathematics there is rarely any "100% irrefutable proof", yet nobody (except you and a few others) would ask for it when sombody calls a duck a duck.

I think it is high time for you to shut up and stop being part of the huge fraud most of us tried hard to protect people from.
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Matthew N. Wright
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August 25, 2012, 08:47:29 AM
 #1102

I think it is high time for you to shut up and stop being part of the huge fraud most of us tried hard to protect people from.

In the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, "Keep your opinions, politics and religion out of my bitcoin".

When people start talking about "protecting" me from things in Bitcoin, I can't help but equate it to the reasoning for Paypal holding my funds.

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August 25, 2012, 09:01:31 AM
 #1103

I think it is high time for you to shut up and stop being part of the huge fraud most of us tried hard to protect people from.

In the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, "Keep your opinions, politics and religion out of my bitcoin".

When people start talking about "protecting" me from things in Bitcoin, I can't help but equate it to the reasoning for Paypal holding my funds.

What if you find (soon enough, if you still haven't) that you did need protection?

The strength of the human civilization is based on people cooperating and helping each other to a degree that animals never attained (except perhaps some state-building insects). I am not going back down to animal level. When I see people in need of help, I help if I can.

Moreover, help, in the form of advice and warning, was always offered, but never was anyone prevented from making a mistake. People who ignore the warnings are completely free to throw their money away however they want.

But if the town is burning, you have no right to tell people to stop shouting "fire."
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August 25, 2012, 09:57:13 AM
 #1104


But if the town is burning, you have no right to tell people to stop shouting "fire."

Bingo. This isn't about government intervention, this was always about speech. It was actually the Pirate collaborators who stood against freedom, talking about how irresponsible--or even libelous--it was to call a spade a spade.

Everyone is still free to be scammed, but we sure as fuck better be free to call something a scam.
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August 25, 2012, 11:00:56 AM
 #1105

I think it is high time for you to shut up and stop being part of the huge fraud most of us tried hard to protect people from.

In the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, "Keep your opinions, politics and religion out of my bitcoin".

When people start talking about "protecting" me from things in Bitcoin, I can't help but equate it to the reasoning for Paypal holding my funds.

Why dont you apply this to yourself and your actions, Matthew!

Why are  you so bent on censorship here? Do you realise what are you doing?

Do I need to pay money entering some stupid bets to say anything on that forum that you do not agree with?

Do you think it is wise to effectively make yourself part of a scam, no less after it has collapsed?

Have you already forgotten as your silly arguments were utterly destroyed in another thread?

Disgusting!

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Matthew N. Wright
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August 25, 2012, 11:04:39 AM
 #1106

I think it is high time for you to shut up and stop being part of the huge fraud most of us tried hard to protect people from.

In the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, "Keep your opinions, politics and religion out of my bitcoin".

When people start talking about "protecting" me from things in Bitcoin, I can't help but equate it to the reasoning for Paypal holding my funds.

Why dont you apply this to yourself and your actions, Matthew!

Why are  you so bent on censorship here? Do you realise what are you doing?

Do I need to pay money entering some stupid bets to say anything on that forum that you do not agree with?

Do you think it is wise to effectively make yourself part of a scam, no less after it has collapsed?

Have you already forgotten as your silly arguments were utterly destroyed in another thread?

Disgusting!


The only thing disgusting is having to repeat myself. I'm not for censorship. You and anyone else are free to bark all day about what you think, but accusations, harassment, and defamation (example: THIS IS A PONZI) need to be backed up with evidence. If someone is quite sure of themselves, it's not a "gamble" to bet on what they say, it's just free money. I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat this.


Do you think it is wise to effectively make yourself part of a scam, no less after it has collapsed?

What scam are you referring to and what exactly collapsed? When referencing it, please also show a link to the evidence of it both being a scam and having collapsed, thanks.

On the off-chance you're referring to the whole Pirate thing, I'd like to remind the general public that you've declined to wager on it being a fraud or not. Seems strange for someone using such strong, serious and absolute wording.

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August 25, 2012, 11:20:07 AM
 #1107

What is even more disgusting is that it is seems no one whose opinion I value is posting on this forum anymore. With a very few exceptions, of course. There is no reason for me to remain here until this has changed. Bye for now.



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August 25, 2012, 11:51:56 AM
 #1108

I think it is high time for you to shut up and stop being part of the huge fraud most of us tried hard to protect people from.

In the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, "Keep your opinions, politics and religion out of my bitcoin".

When people start talking about "protecting" me from things in Bitcoin, I can't help but equate it to the reasoning for Paypal holding my funds.

Why dont you apply this to yourself and your actions, Matthew!

Why are  you so bent on censorship here? Do you realise what are you doing?

Do I need to pay money entering some stupid bets to say anything on that forum that you do not agree with?

Do you think it is wise to effectively make yourself part of a scam, no less after it has collapsed?

Have you already forgotten as your silly arguments were utterly destroyed in another thread?

Disgusting!


The only thing disgusting is having to repeat myself. I'm not for censorship. You and anyone else are free to bark all day about what you think, but accusations, harassment, and defamation (example: THIS IS A PONZI) need to be backed up with evidence. If someone is quite sure of themselves, it's not a "gamble" to bet on what they say, it's just free money. I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat this.


Do you think it is wise to effectively make yourself part of a scam, no less after it has collapsed?

What scam are you referring to and what exactly collapsed? When referencing it, please also show a link to the evidence of it both being a scam and having collapsed, thanks.

On the off-chance you're referring to the whole Pirate thing, I'd like to remind the general public that you've declined to wager on it being a fraud or not. Seems strange for someone using such strong, serious and absolute wording.

I understand that Matt's main point is "you guys cannot be totally sure that it's a Ponzi" 

I disagree.  There is more than enough evidence to look at the program and say "This is Ponzi Scheme" - maybe the exact perfect definition is "With a 99.999999999999% degree of certainty I can say this is a Ponzi scheme"  - I feel Matt would be more confident in the latter, but IMO it will take millions of lifetimes to average a not-a-scam, so we can just say "this is a fucking scam" and leave off the qualifiers.

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August 25, 2012, 11:56:17 AM
 #1109

What evidence? I must keep missing it.

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August 25, 2012, 12:36:25 PM
 #1110

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?
Matthew N. Wright
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August 25, 2012, 12:48:39 PM
 #1111

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?

Evidence can be misleading. Someone stabs themselves and drops the bloody knife and I pick it up. Evidence points to me stabbing them. Thankfully, real judges and courts are not so ignorant as this community to judge so quickly.

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August 25, 2012, 04:00:57 PM
 #1112

P.S.

The level of discussion here is appalling. I am too to some degree guilty of occasionally employing some logical fallacies, often intentionally, for that I do apologize. Now let me give you some details and examples.

The simple truth is that Pirate made an extrordianary claim that he has some kind of biz model that is producing >3400% APR AND that it is reasonable to buy capital at ~3400 APR% AND that his biz model is not a ponzi. Moreover he takes(has taken) deposits/money based on that claim directly and via intermediaries/partners/employees/etc.

The opponents have called this BS and are completely justified to assert that pirate is running a ponzi scheme. based on logical reasoning.


Pirate and his shills, supporters, lieutenants and captives went on offensive employing every logical fallacy in the book (many of them anyway).

Let's just list some of fallacies routinely used and/or likely will be used shortly by team "pirate, the miracle worker":

Ad hoc: "pirate paid 1 account, hence he will pay all accounts", "pirate paid N weeks on time, hence he will continue paying on time" etc...

Anecdotal evidence: "we had a dinner with pirate, therefore he is not anonymous"

Argumentum ad baculum: "you say something against pirate, you get paid last"

Argumentum ad crumenam: "pirate has NNNNNN BTC, therefore he is right", "I bet NNNNNNN BTC, therefore I am right (or ballsy), you did not bet therefore you shut up"

Argumentum ad hominem: attacking opponents personally and on various unrelated matters, like their own businesses, bets they have or not have placed etc...

Argumentum ad ignorantiam: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise.", "pirate is not a ponzi because nobody can prove otherwise", "there is a giant teapot orbiting the sun, because nobody can prove otherwise". This also includes "shifting the burden of proof", btw.

Argumentum ad misericordiam: (soon to be employed) "I did not murder my mother and father with an axe! Please don't find me guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan.", "I lost so much money on ponzi and stupid bets, I am suffering enough, do not tell me that I am guilty of promoting and conspiring in a ponzi scheme and a scammer"

Argumentum ad nauseam: ohh yea repeat utter BS until any reasonable person tells you "fuck off, no point to talking to you", nauseating it is indeed.

Argumentum ad numerum: "so many people invested in that, they cannot be all wrong"

Argumentum ad verecundiam: (Appeal to authority, false authority in this case): "Pirates's lieutenants and shills say they know him, and he a has magical biz model and it is not a ponzi, it must be so then"

Bifurcation: "if pirate pays all accounts now, he is not running a ponzi" (That is an interesting one, think about it)

Fallacy of presupposition: (demanding an explanation of something that is not true or have not been established)

Ignoratio elenchi: (illogically concluding that some set of usually fallacious arguments support the desired conclusion)

Non causa pro causa: "pirate has defaulted because, they were posting that he is running a ponzi"

Non sequitur: "pirate pays 7%, therefore he has some miracle biz model making lots of money and it is totally possible"

Petitio principii: "pirate is not running a ponzi, because he pays dividends, and must have some underlying biz model, and therefore he is not running a ponzi"

Plurium interrogationum: demanding a simple answer to a complex question.

Red herring: "some copies of bitcoin magazine were delivered late, therefore pirate is not running a ponzi"

Shifting the burden of proof (again): "pirate has claimed that he is not running a ponzi and that he needs to buy capital at 3000% APR and that he has some underlying biz model other than paying capital back as dividend and asked and received lots of money, now you need to prove that he is not running a ponzi."

Straw man: (happens ~10 times in every thread.) miscquote your opponent than attack his, taken out of context or misrepresented, opinion. Works especially well with typos and grammar/spelling mistakes.

Tu quoque: "you attacked ad hominem, I will respond with ad hominem too."

The persistent abuse here of all the fallacies is so annoying that continuing any serious discussion here amounts to utter waste of time, not intellectual stimulating and often simply aggravating.

The above is why I do this...

For your reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_teapot
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/


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Matthew N. Wright
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August 25, 2012, 04:08:46 PM
 #1113

Argumentum ad ignorantiam: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise.", "pirate is not a ponzi because nobody can prove otherwise", "there is a giant teapot orbiting the sun, because nobody can prove otherwise". This also includes "shifting the burden of proof", btw.

No one is claiming he's not a Ponzi. All I see are a bunch of people claiming he is. Sounds like a logical fallacy on your part. "I believe in the Devil, and I'm going to make you prove to me that he doesn't exist or else I'm going to keep on believing and telling about he's the Devil because he's red and does parlor tricks".

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August 25, 2012, 04:15:50 PM
 #1114

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?

Evidence can be misleading. Someone stabs themselves and drops the bloody knife and I pick it up. Evidence points to me stabbing them. Thankfully, real judges and courts are not so ignorant as this community to judge so quickly.

Matt, you always suggest the 0.00001% scenario when making the non-Ponzi argument.  

Stephen Hawkings TV special recently taught me about "best fit reality" - i.e. when I leave my office and come back in an hour, my chair is always in the same spot I left it - I assume it has been sitting there the whole time I was gone.  But what if when I left my office, my chair opened the window and flew to the international space station then right before I get back in the room it flies back in, closes the window and returns to the exact same spot I left it an hour ago.  Of course my "best fit reality" is that it just stayed there the whole time.

99.99999999999%+ the chair was just there the whole time, but I can never be certain, however I'd bet Matt an additional 500BTC on every trial of that too.

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August 25, 2012, 04:17:23 PM
 #1115

Matt, you always suggest the 0.00001% scenario when making the non-Ponzi argument.  

Stephen Hawkings TV special recently taught me about "best fit reality" - i.e. when I leave my office and come back in an hour, my chair is always in the same spot I left it - I assume it has been sitting there the whole time I was gone.  But what if when I left my office, my chair opened the window and flew to the international space station then right before I get back in the room it flies back in, closes the window and returns to the exact same spot I left it an hour ago.  Of course my "best fit reality" is that it just stayed there the whole time.

99.99999999999%+ the chair was just there the whole time, but I can never be certain, however I'd bet Matt an additional 500BTC on every trial of that too.

Maybe we're all in the matrix and the chair never existed at all?

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Matthew N. Wright
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August 25, 2012, 04:19:01 PM
 #1116

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?

Evidence can be misleading. Someone stabs themselves and drops the bloody knife and I pick it up. Evidence points to me stabbing them. Thankfully, real judges and courts are not so ignorant as this community to judge so quickly.

Matt, you always suggest the 0.00001% scenario when making the non-Ponzi argument.  

Stephen Hawkings TV special recently taught me about "best fit reality" - i.e. when I leave my office and come back in an hour, my chair is always in the same spot I left it - I assume it has been sitting there the whole time I was gone.  But what if when I left my office, my chair opened the window and flew to the international space station then right before I get back in the room it flies back in, closes the window and returns to the exact same spot I left it an hour ago.  Of course my "best fit reality" is that it just stayed there the whole time.

99.99999999999%+ the chair was just there the whole time, but I can never be certain, however I'd bet Matt an additional 500BTC on every trial of that too.

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

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August 25, 2012, 04:20:55 PM
 #1117

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

Serious question:
How are you going to fund >$100k in bets if you lose?
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August 25, 2012, 04:24:45 PM
 #1118

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

Serious question:
How are you going to fund >$100k in bets if you lose?

It isn't $100k in bets, its BTC.  Until you convert, it has no USD value.

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August 25, 2012, 04:25:49 PM
 #1119

... wall of truth ...

This devastating display of sanity should not be buried on page 57 of some obscure thread, but stapled to the church door.

Make it a top level post. Get it stickied as a warning, and for future reference. Perhaps the next would-be catastrophe can be averted.


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August 25, 2012, 04:34:05 PM
 #1120

Argumentum ad ignorantiam: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise.", "pirate is not a ponzi because nobody can prove otherwise", "there is a giant teapot orbiting the sun, because nobody can prove otherwise". This also includes "shifting the burden of proof", btw.

No one is claiming he's not a Ponzi. All I see are a bunch of people claiming he is. Sounds like a logical fallacy on your part. "I believe in the Devil, and I'm going to make you prove to me that he doesn't exist or else I'm going to keep on believing and telling about he's the Devil because he's red and does parlor tricks".

Straw man fallacy. Try again. Try better.

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