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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 108103 times)
Frankie
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August 25, 2012, 04:52:54 PM
 #1121

... wall of truth ...

This devastating display of sanity should not be buried on page 57 of some obscure thread, but stapled to the church door.

Make it a top level post. Get it stickied as a warning, and for future reference. Perhaps the next would-be catastrophe can be averted.


This. People have started upteen threads with idiotic theories about Pirate's "business model," and this is more valuable than all of them.
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August 25, 2012, 04:53:44 PM
 #1122

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

Serious question:
How are you going to fund >$100k in bets if you lose?

It isn't $100k in bets, its BTC.  Until you convert, it has no USD value.
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August 25, 2012, 05:25:39 PM
 #1123

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

Serious question:
How are you going to fund >$100k in bets if you lose?

It isn't $100k in bets, its BTC.  Until you convert, it has no USD value.
Roll Eyes

How do you know he didn't acquire them when bitcoin was pennies?  To make a huge deal of it because its workworth $100k today with no lock until a person does something with it is a bit.. short sighted.

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August 25, 2012, 05:46:46 PM
 #1124

The only thing disgusting is having to repeat myself. I'm not for censorship. You and anyone else are free to bark all day about what you think, but accusations, harassment, and defamation (example: THIS IS A PONZI) need to be backed up with evidence.

That is an impossible burden of proof.  Baring some insider blowing the whistle, or the Police seizing evidence under a warrant it is impossible to prove a ponzi, given the fact that the operator can simply choose to not provide enough information to make that proof possible.  Still it isn't up to you to decide what constitutes acceptable evidence.   

Anything offering 3400% APR on $5M in capital is a ponzi.  Anyone who could pay that much interest simply WOULDN'T.  If they are smart enough to earn >3400% per year, then you are smart enough to use that profit to pay down the debt and keep the entire 3400% return to yourself.

If you feel I can't say that then feel free to sue me.  Baring a lawsuit it doesn't really matter what you think other people can or can not say. 


Quote
What scam are you referring to and what exactly collapsed? When referencing it, please also show a link to the evidence of it both being a scam and having collapsed, thanks.

Pirate is in debt service default of his own contract.  By the rules of this forum he is a scammer.   

He owes forum members in excess of $5M and has not repaid that nor provided any transparency on how/when he intends to repay it.   
His obligations are increasing at a rate of $57,600 per day. 

I mean by your logic as long as he never admits to it being a ponzi he simply can never pay anyone back ever and it isn't a ponzi or a scam. 
There may never be absolute proof baring a confession.  To be convicted in a criminal court only requires "proof beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT", in civil court is merely requires the "preponderance of evidence".  Yes based on the facts known unless Pirate provided additional evidence to his defense he would lose a civil case alleging fraud and running a ponzi scam.  Pirate is certainly free to provide evidence to his defense.  He has chosen to provide nothing, and not repay more than a token amount, provide no specific timelines on repayment, and is in default of his own contract.

THAT IS A SCAM.  PERIOD.
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August 25, 2012, 06:04:46 PM
 #1125

The only thing disgusting is having to repeat myself. I'm not for censorship. You and anyone else are free to bark all day about what you think, but accusations, harassment, and defamation (example: THIS IS A PONZI) need to be backed up with evidence.

That is an impossible burden of proof.  Baring some insider blowing the whistle, or the Police seizing evidence under a warrant it is impossible to prove a ponzi, given the fact that the operator can simply choose to not provide enough information to make that proof possible.  Still it isn't up to you to decide what constitutes acceptable evidence.   

Anything offering 3400% APR on $5M in capital is a ponzi.  Anyone who could pay that much interest simply WOULDN'T.  If they are smart enough to earn >3400% per year, then you are smart enough to use that profit to pay down the debt and keep the entire 3400% return to yourself.

If you feel I can't say that then feel free to sue me.  Baring a lawsuit it doesn't really matter what you think other people can or can not say. 


Quote
What scam are you referring to and what exactly collapsed? When referencing it, please also show a link to the evidence of it both being a scam and having collapsed, thanks.

Pirate is in debt service default of his own contract.  By the rules of this forum he is a scammer.   

He owes forum members in excess of $5M and has not repaid that nor provided any transparency on how/when he intends to repay it.   
His obligations are increasing at a rate of $57,600 per day. 

I mean by your logic as long as he never admits to it being a ponzi he simply can never pay anyone back ever and it isn't a ponzi or a scam. 
There may never be absolute proof baring a confession.  To be convicted in a criminal court only requires "proof beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT", in civil court is merely requires the "preponderance of evidence".  Yes based on the facts known unless Pirate provided additional evidence to his defense he would lose a civil case alleging fraud and running a ponzi scam.  Pirate is certainly free to provide evidence to his defense.  He has chosen to provide nothing, and not repay more than a token amount, provide no specific timelines on repayment, and is in default of his own contract.

THAT IS A SCAM.  PERIOD.

Isn't the burden of proof on the forum for a scammer tag having committed the scam, and showing no effort to pay it back? Pirate isn't quite there yet, although he's definitely getting close. Scammer tags probably require a higher standard here than a judgement in civil court.

I can imagine scenarios where Pirate is not running a Ponzi, but none of them wouldn't be considered fraud. If Pirate does manage somehow to pay back all outstanding debt through a combination of market moves to suppress the price and buying his defaulted debt through intermediaries for 10 bitcents on the coin, I would hope the admins would still brand him a scammer.
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August 25, 2012, 06:09:27 PM
 #1126

What is even more disgusting is that it is seems no one whose opinion I value is posting on this forum anymore. With a very few exceptions, of course. There is no reason for me to remain here until this has changed. …

I think the reason is that now, after the default, the people whose opinion you value can simply stand back for another week, until 90% of the believers finally grasp the truth. Conversely, those "investors" with at least half a brain recognize the default or the very high likelihood of it and also stand back waiting.

So only few people stay in the discussion, the hare-brained and the evangelists.  Smiley

By the way, now even the hare-brained should get second thoughts. The pirate has decided to shut down a business that ostensibly produced $50,000 per day. He does not gently wind it down over a couple of months. Instead he shuts it down from one day to the other, citing the reason that he wants time with his family. He does not pay out at least his bigger accounts, although each day would cost him another $50,000. How much crazier can it get?

I think, now we should indeed stand back until the last pirate fans see the light.
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August 25, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
 #1127

Pirate is in debt service default of his own contract.  By the rules of this forum he is a scammer.   

He owes forum members in excess of $5M and has not repaid that nor provided any transparency on how/when he intends to repay it.   
His obligations are increasing at a rate of $57,600 per day. 

I mean by your logic as long as he never admits to it being a ponzi he simply can never pay anyone back ever and it isn't a ponzi or a scam. 
There may never be absolute proof baring a confession.  To be convicted in a criminal court only requires "proof beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT", in civil court is merely requires the "preponderance of evidence".  Yes based on the facts known unless Pirate provided additional evidence to his defense he would lose a civil case alleging fraud and running a ponzi scam.  Pirate is certainly free to provide evidence to his defense.  He has chosen to provide nothing, and not repay more than a token amount, provide no specific timelines on repayment, and is in default of his own contract.

THAT IS A SCAM.  PERIOD.


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August 25, 2012, 11:08:07 PM
 #1128

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?

Evidence can be misleading. Someone stabs themselves and drops the bloody knife and I pick it up. Evidence points to me stabbing them. Thankfully, real judges and courts are not so ignorant as this community to judge so quickly.

Matt, you always suggest the 0.00001% scenario when making the non-Ponzi argument.  

Stephen Hawkings TV special recently taught me about "best fit reality" - i.e. when I leave my office and come back in an hour, my chair is always in the same spot I left it - I assume it has been sitting there the whole time I was gone.  But what if when I left my office, my chair opened the window and flew to the international space station then right before I get back in the room it flies back in, closes the window and returns to the exact same spot I left it an hour ago.  Of course my "best fit reality" is that it just stayed there the whole time.

99.99999999999%+ the chair was just there the whole time, but I can never be certain, however I'd bet Matt an additional 500BTC on every trial of that too.

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

ok, I'm in.  I assume we are talking about Pirate, not my chair going to the ISS.  I'll conf-post in the other thread or you can just do it / link to this acceptance

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Matthew N. Wright
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August 25, 2012, 11:30:44 PM
 #1129

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?

Evidence can be misleading. Someone stabs themselves and drops the bloody knife and I pick it up. Evidence points to me stabbing them. Thankfully, real judges and courts are not so ignorant as this community to judge so quickly.

Matt, you always suggest the 0.00001% scenario when making the non-Ponzi argument.  

Stephen Hawkings TV special recently taught me about "best fit reality" - i.e. when I leave my office and come back in an hour, my chair is always in the same spot I left it - I assume it has been sitting there the whole time I was gone.  But what if when I left my office, my chair opened the window and flew to the international space station then right before I get back in the room it flies back in, closes the window and returns to the exact same spot I left it an hour ago.  Of course my "best fit reality" is that it just stayed there the whole time.

99.99999999999%+ the chair was just there the whole time, but I can never be certain, however I'd bet Matt an additional 500BTC on every trial of that too.

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

ok, I'm in.  I assume we are talking about Pirate, not my chair going to the ISS.  I'll conf-post in the other thread or you can just do it / link to this acceptance

Lol no not the chair going to ISS. -That- would be a gamble.

Bet increase acknowledged.

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August 26, 2012, 11:26:42 AM
 #1130

What evidence? I must keep missing it.
The really huge ones:
- There has never been an investment scheme that promises to pay this well that didn't turn out to be a ponzi.
- Only one guy claims to have gotten 100 BTC 5+ days after he was supposed to start paying.

Perhaps you are confusing evidence with proof?

Evidence can be misleading. Someone stabs themselves and drops the bloody knife and I pick it up. Evidence points to me stabbing them. Thankfully, real judges and courts are not so ignorant as this community to judge so quickly.

Matt, you always suggest the 0.00001% scenario when making the non-Ponzi argument.  

Stephen Hawkings TV special recently taught me about "best fit reality" - i.e. when I leave my office and come back in an hour, my chair is always in the same spot I left it - I assume it has been sitting there the whole time I was gone.  But what if when I left my office, my chair opened the window and flew to the international space station then right before I get back in the room it flies back in, closes the window and returns to the exact same spot I left it an hour ago.  Of course my "best fit reality" is that it just stayed there the whole time.

99.99999999999%+ the chair was just there the whole time, but I can never be certain, however I'd bet Matt an additional 500BTC on every trial of that too.

If you want to go another 500BTC in, I'm game ^_^

ok, I'm in.  I assume we are talking about Pirate, not my chair going to the ISS.  I'll conf-post in the other thread or you can just do it / link to this acceptance

Lol no not the chair going to ISS. -That- would be a gamble.

Bet increase acknowledged.

I feel the fact that I received this casino mailer today hurts my chances, helps Matt's side.  Hopefully unrelated:




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August 27, 2012, 12:44:41 PM
 #1131

By the way, now even the hare-brained should get second thoughts. The pirate has decided to shut down a business that ostensibly produced $50,000 per day. He does not gently wind it down over a couple of months. Instead he shuts it down from one day to the other, citing the reason that he wants time with his family. He does not pay out at least his bigger accounts, although each day would cost him another $50,000. How much crazier can it get?

This.

I wonder if an apology will be forthcoming any time soon...

Oh, and BurtW still hasn't updated his bet thread. Using mark-to-market (y'know, as you do for debt instruments like this) I figure he's down about 6500BTC.
Except he's not, because he almost certainly never made that deposit  Cheesy
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August 27, 2012, 03:02:41 PM
 #1132

By the way, now even the hare-brained should get second thoughts. The pirate has decided to shut down a business that ostensibly produced $50,000 per day. He does not gently wind it down over a couple of months. Instead he shuts it down from one day to the other, citing the reason that he wants time with his family. He does not pay out at least his bigger accounts, although each day would cost him another $50,000. How much crazier can it get?

This.

I wonder if an apology will be forthcoming any time soon...

Oh, and BurtW still hasn't updated his bet thread. Using mark-to-market (y'know, as you do for debt instruments like this) I figure he's down about 6500BTC.
Except he's not, because he almost certainly never made that deposit  Cheesy

Indeed, BurtW strikes me as one of the shilliest of the shills. Bet he turned a profit.

Weird how quiet it's gotten on this thread now that it's increasingly clear OP is basically right on the big one.
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August 27, 2012, 08:31:21 PM
 #1133

If Pirate pays eveyone then I do stand to make a tidy profit.  If he does not pay everyone then I stand to lose a lot of my BTC.

There was never an if and there is still no if.

Why do some people not get it even after it is twice as obvious as it has always been?
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August 27, 2012, 08:40:23 PM
 #1134

If Pirate pays eveyone then I do stand to make a tidy profit.  If he does not pay everyone then I stand to lose a lot of my BTC.

There was never an if and there is still no if.

Why do some people not get it even after it is twice as obvious as it has always been?

Got it... Its not if, its when. Thanks for clearing that up.
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August 27, 2012, 11:27:13 PM
 #1135

Weird how quiet it's gotten on this thread now that it's increasingly clear OP is basically right on the big one.

Potentially. Should GPUMAX stop paying out, I'd call the show over and done. I am perturbed by the delay, although it was counterproductive for Pirate to announce his move to close the operation before preparing for it. Right now it's wait-and-see. If you've been following #btcst you'd know that he hasn't disappeared, and has stated his willingness to sacrifice his own profit soon if he can't make progress with the initial plan. Talk is cheap, but we'll see.

As far as I'm concerned, Maged has been more disingenuous by proclaiming evidence that supposedly proves BTCS&T was a fraudulent operation, yet refusing to supply said evidence. If it does turn out that Pirate ran a scam, Micon and most of Team Ponzi were just on a crusade to save people from themselves, but Maged may have had sufficient material to establish proof. To me, that would be a lesser version of withholding the cure for a virulent plague that wipes out a large percentage of the population.
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August 27, 2012, 11:30:05 PM
 #1136

Weird how quiet it's gotten on this thread now that it's increasingly clear OP is basically right on the big one.

Potentially. Should GPUMAX stop paying out, I'd call the show over and done. I am perturbed by the delay, although it was counterproductive for Pirate to announce his move to close the operation before preparing for it. Right now it's wait-and-see. If you've been following #btcst you'd know that he hasn't disappeared, and has stated his willingness to sacrifice his own profit soon if he can't make progress with the initial plan. Talk is cheap, but we'll see.

As far as I'm concerned, Maged has been more disingenuous by proclaiming evidence that supposedly proves BTCS&T was a fraudulent operation, yet refusing to supply said evidence. If it does turn out that Pirate ran a scam, Micon and most of Team Ponzi were just on a crusade to save people from themselves, but Maged may have had sufficient material to establish proof. To me, that would be a lesser version of withholding the cure for a virulent plague that wipes out a large percentage of the population.

I actually asked Maged at one point to post it, because obviously, if there's something that can prove something besides hunches and coincidences, it should be brought to light.  He basically replied back about how he didn't have anything definite or something along those lines (my memory fails me, I'm looking for the thread/post).

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August 27, 2012, 11:37:37 PM
 #1137

Bet thread updated:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97094.0

No, I am not planning on selling the debt so there is no need to "mark to market".  I will either get BTC back or lose them.

If Pirate pays eveyone then I do stand to make a tidy profit.  If he does not pay everyone then I stand to lose a lot of my BTC.

dude you can't still be serious...

1)  BurtW, along with Payb.tc are co-conspirators in this scam.

2)  BurtW helped Pirateat40 funnel 100k's of BTC to his scam via PPT bonds.

3)  The arrogance and outright lies he spread make me sick.  I think he knew the whole time what was going on, never invested his own monies but wanted to make a % each week.  

4)  This "bet" thread that BurtW made is so laughable to update 1 week after Pirateat40 defaulted.  Obviously it's a locked thread because he would get destroyed in the thread (for not actually making the bet, for accruing interest based on if an obvious scammer returns monies he doesn't have)

5)  Let's all never forget when BurtW made his sig "No, BCST is not a Ponzi"

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August 27, 2012, 11:40:22 PM
 #1138

If Pirate pays eveyone then I do stand to make a tidy profit.  If he does not pay everyone then I stand to lose a lot of my BTC.

it was foretold:

...
Let's just list some of fallacies that have been routinely used and/or likely will be used shortly by team "pirate, the miracle worker" (and by other community members on other topics too, of course):
...
Argumentum ad misericordiam:
  "I did not murder my mother and father with an axe! Please don't find me guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan.", "I lost so much money on ponzi and stupid bets, I am suffering enough, do not tell me that I am guilty of promoting and conspiring in a ponzi scheme and a scammer"
...

-
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August 27, 2012, 11:40:54 PM
 #1139

I actually asked Maged at one point to post it, because obviously, if there's something that can prove something besides hunches and coincidences, it should be brought to light.  He basically replied back about how he didn't have anything definite or something along those lines (my memory fails me, I'm looking for the thread/post).

I also have yet to get a response from him after asking about his 'proof' as well. As soon as I brought it up and suggested that evidence would change my stance, there were no more replies.
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August 27, 2012, 11:50:25 PM
 #1140

I actually asked Maged at one point to post it, because obviously, if there's something that can prove something besides hunches and coincidences, it should be brought to light.  He basically replied back about how he didn't have anything definite or something along those lines (my memory fails me, I'm looking for the thread/post).

I also have yet to get a response from him after asking about his 'proof' as well. As soon as I brought it up and suggested that evidence would change my stance, there were no more replies.

"Proof" only exists in mathematics; it isn't required in a court of law. There is plenty of evidence. And everyone knows it -- even you and your ilk, no matter how much you try to pretend.

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