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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 108102 times)
imsaguy
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August 27, 2012, 11:53:23 PM
 #1141

I actually asked Maged at one point to post it, because obviously, if there's something that can prove something besides hunches and coincidences, it should be brought to light.  He basically replied back about how he didn't have anything definite or something along those lines (my memory fails me, I'm looking for the thread/post).

I also have yet to get a response from him after asking about his 'proof' as well. As soon as I brought it up and suggested that evidence would change my stance, there were no more replies.

"Proof" only exists in mathematics; it isn't required in a court of law. There is plenty of evidence. And everyone knows it -- even you and your ilk, no matter how much you try to pretend.

That is what I was asking him to provide.

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August 27, 2012, 11:59:15 PM
 #1142

Weird how quiet it's gotten on this thread now that it's increasingly clear OP is basically right on the big one.

Potentially. Should GPUMAX stop paying out, I'd call the show over and done. I am perturbed by the delay, although it was counterproductive for Pirate to announce his move to close the operation before preparing for it. Right now it's wait-and-see. If you've been following #btcst you'd know that he hasn't disappeared, and has stated his willingness to sacrifice his own profit soon if he can't make progress with the initial plan. Talk is cheap, but we'll see.

As far as I'm concerned, Maged has been more disingenuous by proclaiming evidence that supposedly proves BTCS&T was a fraudulent operation, yet refusing to supply said evidence. If it does turn out that Pirate ran a scam, Micon and most of Team Ponzi were just on a crusade to save people from themselves, but Maged may have had sufficient material to establish proof. To me, that would be a lesser version of withholding the cure for a virulent plague that wipes out a large percentage of the population.

1)  Positive signs that the Stockholm syndrome period is wearing off,  miscreanity finally entertained the idea that Pirate won't pay.

2)  Believe it or not, I have a track record of spending my time and energy to save other ppl I don't from scams.  I am driven to do this because it sickens me to see a scam actively trapping innocents, let alone a BTC version - that really pissed me off - bitcoin could change the world!  let's not fuck it up in it's relative infancy.

3) here is a fun spreadsheet and I did all the work for you:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah0rJ1eK8mwpdEs2MFRfbGQybGhNamo1aGhDSURaT1E

It's got a column of weeks, and a column that just multiplies the above week by 1.07

the fun facts, if you don't want to see all the numbers:

week 1 - Invest $100
Week 52 - $3152
end year 2 - $106,000+
end year 3 - $3.5M+
year 4 - $120M+
year 8 - you have all the money in the world

THATS why you can't pay 7% per week - you would have to pay out all the money in the world in 8 yrs if a guy invests $100



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August 27, 2012, 11:59:59 PM
 #1143

Don't you get it, imsaguy?

It's all over! Even the dumbest teenage "investors" are wise to the scam! It is pointless to move the goalposts now.

And now all that is left is to settle accounts in the legal system.

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August 28, 2012, 12:09:10 AM
 #1144

Congrats.  Go find the post, it hasn't been touched.  Maged even quoted it.

The people still reading the thread understand that whatever you say just doesn't matter. If it makes you feel better to keep up the charade, then please go on.

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miscreanity
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August 28, 2012, 12:18:35 AM
 #1145

1)  Positive signs that the Stockholm syndrome period is wearing off,  miscreanity finally entertained the idea that Pirate won't pay.

For the entire duration of this debate, I've been of a mind that it's impossible to know one way or the other without concrete evidence. I still hold that stance.

3) here is a fun spreadsheet and I did all the work for you:

Pirate's operation has been ongoing for barely a year. If Pirate does end up paying out, you won't have any wiggle room to backtrack on what you've said; your reputation here will be shattered beyond repair.

You may do better pointing people to Albert Bartlett's lectures on exponential functions and letting them figure it out for themselves. The approach that was started with comes off as overly panicked and emotional when many simply won't listen in the first place. That's just part of the process known as life.
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August 28, 2012, 12:25:04 AM
 #1146

Bet thread updated:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97094.0

No, I am not planning on selling the debt so there is no need to "mark to market".  I will either get BTC back or lose them.

If Pirate pays eveyone then I do stand to make a tidy profit.  If he does not pay everyone then I stand to lose a lot of my BTC.

dude you can't still be serious...

1)  BurtW, along with Payb.tc are co-conspirators in this scam.

2)  BurtW helped Pirateat40 funnel 100k's of BTC to his scam via PPT bonds.

3)  The arrogance and outright lies he spread make me sick.  I think he knew the whole time what was going on, never invested his own monies but wanted to make a % each week.  

4)  This "bet" thread that BurtW made is so laughable to update 1 week after Pirateat40 defaulted.  Obviously it's a locked thread because he would get destroyed in the thread (for not actually making the bet, for accruing interest based on if an obvious scammer returns monies he doesn't have)

5)  Let's all never forget when BurtW made his sig "No, BCST is not a Ponzi"

The volume of the PPT bonds was nowhere near BTC100k. At any one time there was BTC12k in the system, plus the interest. Each week 3k went in and 3840 came out. Of all the passthroughs, the PPT bonds contributed the least to the growth of the ponzi.
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August 28, 2012, 12:31:58 AM
 #1147

For the entire duration of this debate, I've been of a mind that it's impossible to know one way or the other without concrete evidence. I still hold that stance.

Good to hear. Then you'll agree that the evidence has always been overwhelming and damning. The lack of any evidence to the contrary is just a bonus. Whatever stance you are "holding" is in the face of that and the extending interval of time that pirate is in default, by his own terms.

Quote
Pirate's operation has been ongoing for barely a year. If Pirate does end up paying out, you won't have any wiggle room to backtrack on what you've said; your reputation here will be shattered beyond repair.

Then Micon has nothing to worry about.

Pirate hasn't payed out. By his own terms, pirate has defaulted. The fact that the situation has progressed beyond just a manifest fraud to a clear default (the only possible outcome) is why the bitcoin market is valuing pirate's debt as worthless.

So, go tell it to the market. See if it will listen to you. Get back to us on it.

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jbreher
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August 28, 2012, 04:56:14 AM
 #1148


1)  BurtW, ...

3)  The arrogance and outright lies he spread make me sick.

All right Micon - that's a friend of mine you are speaking about. Do you have proof that BurtW has lied about anything? Please quote.

And what about your lies, hmmmm? Provide evidence for the following blind assertions you made in a single post:

"BurtW helped Pirateat40 funnel 100k's of BTC to his scam via PPT bonds" - hint - you've already been corrected in this very thread.

"never invested his own monies" - while I could be anyone claiming anything, I know this assertion to be false. But most importantly, where's your evidence? You do not have any, because you are lying. Making it up as you go along.

In the course of just a couple weeks, you've gone off uncountable times half-cocked with wild assertions that are provably false. With never a mea culpa, apology, or retraction. I think you mean well in general, but your buffoonery is casting a lot of collateral damage. Put that thing away before somebody really gets hurt.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.
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August 28, 2012, 05:03:51 AM
 #1149

Stop waving that thing around, hahaha.  Cheesy
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August 28, 2012, 05:07:52 AM
 #1150

Stop waving that thing around, hahaha.  Cheesy

'zackly.








(BTW, I find it notable that that was peasant's 69th post)

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August 28, 2012, 05:41:03 AM
 #1151

I actually asked Maged at one point to post it, because obviously, if there's something that can prove something besides hunches and coincidences, it should be brought to light.  He basically replied back about how he didn't have anything definite or something along those lines (my memory fails me, I'm looking for the thread/post).

I also have yet to get a response from him after asking about his 'proof' as well. As soon as I brought it up and suggested that evidence would change my stance, there were no more replies.

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imsaguy
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August 28, 2012, 05:42:51 AM
 #1152

Dear elux:


I'm pretty sure Maged knows what he's talking about on that part. But still, I don't understand if people have data, why don't they share it. I mean, you guys are asking for proof of pirate business, but you don't provide much on your part either.
I wish that they would, but I'm not authorized to.

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August 28, 2012, 06:13:27 AM
 #1153

It was decided that it was pointless to post the information after Pirate closed down. The information, had I been allowed to share it, would have shown that with a little starting capital to pay initial investors (less than a few thousand BTC), a ponzi scheme with the inflow and outflow that we observed from Pirate would have not just been possible, but also extremely profitable because more deposits were consistently coming in than what was going out. In fact, the more we called it a ponzi, the more deposits there were.

Like I said, it was never proof of anything. It only showed that this would have been profitable as a ponzi scheme, directly disproving the belief that if this was a ponzi it would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

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August 28, 2012, 06:27:24 AM
 #1154


1)  BurtW, ...

3)  The arrogance and outright lies he spread make me sick.

All right Micon - that's a friend of mine you are speaking about. Do you have proof that BurtW has lied about anything? Please quote.

And what about your lies, hmmmm? Provide evidence for the following blind assertions you made in a single post:

"BurtW helped Pirateat40 funnel 100k's of BTC to his scam via PPT bonds" - hint - you've already been corrected in this very thread.

"never invested his own monies" - while I could be anyone claiming anything, I know this assertion to be false. But most importantly, where's your evidence? You do not have any, because you are lying. Making it up as you go along.

In the course of just a couple weeks, you've gone off uncountable times half-cocked with wild assertions that are provably false. With never a mea culpa, apology, or retraction. I think you mean well in general, but your buffoonery is casting a lot of collateral damage. Put that thing away before somebody really gets hurt.


1)  retraction - looks like BurtW was not as smart as i thought.  if he fired his own BTC and set up the PPT system AND posted that it for sure wasnt a ponzi in his sig and i almost forgot about the fake $10k Bet thread.....  im now thinking this is a guy that Believed Pirate lies in totality

2)  i think we need to add up some #'s and see how Big of a co-conspirator BurtW is.  looks like he will rank #2 to payb.tc.  I should have ran the math first or phrased it different, but its a considerable sum.  how many BTC are the total of the last round of bonds? those are all Pirate profit now.

3) my main assertions are full-cocked, and all look to be 100% true (are you reading the same thread?) this was about Pirate being a total Ponzi schemer paying 7%/wk and it would go boom soon - and it went boom

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August 28, 2012, 06:33:34 AM
 #1155

… If you've been following #btcst you'd know that he hasn't disappeared, and has stated his willingness to sacrifice his own profit soon if he can't make progress with the initial plan. …

I see, and everybody can see, that you are trying to help the pirate spreading his lies.

So what's new?
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August 28, 2012, 06:37:07 AM
 #1156

Micon, now you have done it.

what was the total btc lost on the current issues of PPT bonds? surely you know and wont be as arrogant as to say "look it up yourself" or "not your info" like payb.tc

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August 28, 2012, 06:45:37 AM
 #1157

For the entire duration of this debate, I've been of a mind that it's impossible to know one way or the other without concrete evidence. I still hold that stance.
It's really this simple:

Every legitimate investment provides investors some way to reasonably assure themselves that their money was in fact invested in something that has a reasonable expectation of making a profit. Every legitimate investment provides investors a way to assure themselves that claimed profits were in fact earned from investments that actually turned a profit and that any claimed losses were in fact incurred by investments consistent with the fund's claimed investment strategy. Every legitimate investment provides a sufficiently detailed description of how funds will be invested to allow investors to make realistic assessments of risk. Risk is never just categorized as "high" or "low" but the specific risks are identified so that investors can make rational decisions about how to diversify their portfolio to manage excessive exposure to common risks.

In contrast, Ponzi schemes never provide investors with any way to know where their money is going. They never provide any way to establish the source of purported profits. There is never any way for investors to assess the level of risk, the specific risks, or the connection between those risks and the amounts their investment will lose. Ponzi schemes always promise absurdly high returns relative to risks and generally hand wave and give vague explanations of how those returns will be accomplished. A common claim is that the Ponzi operator knows some secret way to make money and that revealing it to others would ruin the opportunity.

Everything I've said above is backed by concrete evidence. I don't think anything there is really even remotely controversial. Now, all you have to do is take what you know about Pirate and match it up against those facts.

This is not rocket science. There is no missing evidence. Everything you need to reach a near certain conclusion is right in front of your eyes, you just stubbornly refuse to see it and claim that all this evidence somehow does not exist.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 28, 2012, 06:48:29 AM
 #1158

For the entire duration of this debate, I've been of a mind that it's impossible to know one way or the other without concrete evidence. I still hold that stance.
It's really this simple:

Every legitimate investment provides investors some way to reasonably assure themselves that their money was in fact invested in something that has a reasonable expectation of making a profit. Every legitimate investment provides investors a way to assure themselves that claimed profits were in fact earned from investments that actually turned a profit and that any claimed losses were in fact incurred by investments consistent with the fund's claimed investment strategy. Every legitimate investment provides a sufficiently detailed description of how funds will be invested to allow investors to make realistic assessments of risk. Risk is never just categorized as "high" or "low" but the specific risks are identified so that investors can make rational decisions about how to diversify their portfolio to manage excessive exposure to common risks.

In contrast, Ponzi schemes never provide investors with any way to know where their money is going. They never provide any way to establish the source of purported profits. There is never any way for investors to assess the level of risk, the specific risks, or the connection between those risks and the amounts their investment will lose.

Everything I've said above is backed by concrete evidence. I don't think anything there is really even remotely controversial. Now, all you have to do is take what you know about Pirate and match it up against those facts.

This is not rocket science. There is no missing evidence. Everything you need to reach a near certain conclusion is right in front of your eyes, you just stubbornly refuse to see it, and claim that all this evidence somehow does not exist.


No, pirate didnt supply a prospectus to potential investors.

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August 28, 2012, 06:48:42 AM
 #1159

If you've been following #btcst you'd know that he hasn't disappeared, and has stated his willingness to sacrifice his own profit soon if he can't make progress with the initial plan. Talk is cheap, but we'll see.


in this case the talk is worthless.

as you can read from my previous posts in this thread before it started, the final stage of the scam is the long stall. Pirate has given you his weak excuses, only a few foolishly still hold on to hope.

on the subject of "its not proof" and "you cant be sure he wont pay back" - this is only correct as a technicality.  IMO there is a 99.999999999999999999999999999999%+ chance of pirate default.  the 1-in-100,000,000 lifetimes scenarios are the only chance of payback, like some Sultan of Breunei that i unknowingly put a beat on during WSOP 2009 that pays the Pirate debt in full just so I dont win 1000 BTC from Matt

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August 28, 2012, 06:51:46 AM
 #1160

1)  Positive signs that the Stockholm syndrome period is wearing off,  miscreanity finally entertained the idea that Pirate won't pay.

For the entire duration of this debate, I've been of a mind that it's impossible to know one way or the other without concrete evidence. I still hold that stance.

Pirate's operation has been ongoing for barely a year. If Pirate does end up paying out, you won't have any wiggle room to backtrack on what you've said; your reputation here will be shattered beyond repair.

I think there is no Stockholm syndrome here. Everybody can find out for himself what to make of these facts:

A lot of people saw right through the fog from the very beginning and instantly began to warn people of the obvious Ponzi scheme.

A huge number of bitcoin users were at least clever enough not to throw their money into the pirate black hole.

A tiny number of bitcoin users were either too greedy or too gullible or too stupid to withstand the lure and paid in.

An even tinier number of people actively supported the Ponzi scheme by preaching obvious falsehoods and arguing relentlessly that the pirate's operation honestly produces 3,300% annual profit, the equivalent of an estimated $50,000 per day. These people showed an extremely high interest that the Ponzi scheme succeeds.

Most or all of them did so because they were part of the operation and profited from it. miscreanity is trying hard, even in the very last days, when the outcome is even more obvious than it had always been, to hold back the hapless investors and give the pirate a few more days to secure his loot.
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