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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 107958 times)
Matthew N. Wright
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August 22, 2012, 07:27:05 AM
 #1041

you are sure to lose, probably entirely obviously in a few days.

Sorry, this is all I read from what you said. Ready to bet?

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August 22, 2012, 07:27:18 AM
 #1042

I would first have to understand why you offer a bet, which, at this time, you are sure to lose, probably entirely obviously in a few days.
That's the $64,000 question, isn't it?

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August 22, 2012, 07:51:01 AM
 #1043

I would first have to understand why you offer a bet, which, at this time, you are sure to lose, probably entirely obviously in a few days.
That's the $64,000 question, isn't it?

I have speculated much myself.  I cannot figure out why Matt is shooting off so many coins.  I almost feel bad taking them it's so obvious.  Why not stop the bleeding!?  is this being backed by someone else that ain't paying?  Is Matt a fundamentalist Morman and is going to teach us all a less about how betting is wrong? I am going to get this moved to speculation.

shout to AQ / Clipse / BurtW / Imsaguy / Payb.tc  I'm sure you guys are still not sweating it and are like "whatever Pirate has assets and arbitrage, he's just unwinding shit like a boss"

seriously kids, get fucked on this one.  You were all so arrogant to the bitter end.

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August 22, 2012, 07:59:49 AM
 #1044

I would first have to understand why you offer a bet, which, at this time, you are sure to lose, probably entirely obviously in a few days.
That's the $64,000 question, isn't it?

I have speculated much myself.  I cannot figure out why Matt is shooting off so many coins.  I almost feel bad taking them it's so obvious.  Why not stop the bleeding!?  is this being backed by someone else that ain't paying?  Is Matt a fundamentalist Morman and is going to teach us all a less about how betting is wrong? I am going to get this moved to speculation.

shout to AQ / Clipse / BurtW / Imsaguy / Payb.tc  I'm sure you guys are still not sweating it and are like "whatever Pirate has assets and arbitrage, he's just unwinding shit like a boss"

seriously kids, get fucked on this one.  You were all so arrogant to the bitter end.
It ain't over til the fat lady sings and your mother is still busy at pirates house

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August 22, 2012, 08:06:00 AM
 #1045

oh it's game over man.  When you owe a self-admitted $5M+ USD and you are fighting with bitlane on PM day 3 after payback was to start it's all over but the last few die hards. 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101339.0


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August 22, 2012, 08:39:56 AM
 #1046

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.


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August 22, 2012, 08:44:54 AM
 #1047

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.



Game over

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August 22, 2012, 08:45:40 AM
 #1048

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.



Game over

I guess it would be a pretty good time to bet against pirate in my thread then.

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August 22, 2012, 08:46:38 AM
 #1049

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.



Game over

I guess it would be a pretty good time to bet against pirate in my thread then.


lol

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August 22, 2012, 08:56:39 AM
 #1050

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.



I'm not sure Goat really think this is over. That's smell something.

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August 22, 2012, 09:00:28 AM
 #1051

I must say Vescudero is nut running any ponzi.

I've made several deposits and withdrawals in his 2% deposit with no problems.
And I've heard from others that they have succesfully withdrawed the money.

Also he has appeared in public and talked about bitcoins and his plans in the first spanish bitcoin meeting delivering some personal info.

Bitcoin adress:1HtrosDCEM3zMJ1RbsK9g4vpe3DTotBhVh


Need any translation?
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August 22, 2012, 09:12:19 AM
 #1052

Leaving this here in case you missed it:

Just to make clear the bond is now dead or closed as BTCST has failed to send me coins with in 72 hours or make interest payments.

Pirate has defaulted.

Assuming pirate will ever pay in full I will pass along the weeks interest and the face value of the bond.

Again this bond is now dead and to make clear if pirate does not send fund the bonds are worth 0 BTC.

Thank you.



I'm not sure Goat really think this is over. That's smell something.

That's a joke, right? You're kidding? Please tell me you are kidding.
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August 22, 2012, 09:14:41 AM
 #1053

I must say Vescudero is nut running any ponzi.

I've made several deposits and withdrawals in his 2% deposit with no problems.
And I've heard from others that they have succesfully withdrawed the money.
Every ponzi does that. If you couldn't successfully withdraw, nobody would deposit. Deposits are the lifeblood of a ponzi. So long as deposits exceed withdrawals, a ponzi schemer will generally continue to process withdrawals to maintan the positive cash flow into his pockets.

Quote
Also he has appeared in public and talked about bitcoins and his plans in the first spanish bitcoin meeting delivering some personal info.
What does that prove? Do you think it's impossible to know a criminal?

Almost every purported investment that claims unusually high returns relative to risk is either misrepresented (the risks are higher or the returns likely lower than claimed) or a ponzi scheme. The way you show that a such purported investment is not a ponzi is to demonstrate that there are actual legitimate investments taking place and that there's a source of funds for the withdrawals that results from profitable investment of the deposits rather than just the deposits themselves.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 22, 2012, 09:37:26 AM
 #1054

I must say Vescudero is nut running any ponzi.

I've made several deposits and withdrawals in his 2% deposit with no problems.
And I've heard from others that they have succesfully withdrawed the money.
Every ponzi does that. If you couldn't successfully withdraw, nobody would deposit. Deposits are the lifeblood of a ponzi. So long as deposits exceed withdrawals, a ponzi schemer will generally continue to process withdrawals to maintan the positive cash flow into his pockets.

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Also he has appeared in public and talked about bitcoins and his plans in the first spanish bitcoin meeting delivering some personal info.
What does that prove? Do you think it's impossible to know a criminal?

Almost every purported investment that claims unusually high returns relative to risk is either misrepresented (the risks are higher or the returns likely lower than claimed) or a ponzi scheme. The way you show that a such purported investment is not a ponzi is to demonstrate that there are actual legitimate investments taking place and that there's a source of funds for the withdrawals that results from profitable investment of the deposits rather than just the deposits themselves.

I can't agree with this. I tried to deposit with Vescudero and he only accepted around 1/4 of my offer as deposit. After he increased the total limit, he put a per-deposit limit. You can investigate this using multiple forum accounts and trying to deposit over given limits (not per-deposit, but limit for the whole operation) to various borrowers. Another borrower, chungenhung recently returned all deposits with interest and shut down operation. I'm not sure he's the first one to do that either. How would you explain these phenomena?

I think it's much more complicated than that. Some of these borrowers will turn out to be ponzi schemes, and some won't. Some will still default (BDT for one, even if it doesn't fit your ponzi criteria) just by being a bad investment. And in the end, people will either stop lending, or some auditing system will be put in place (am I too optimistic?). Hell, notme paid out all his pirate pass-through lenders with interest even without getting paid himself, which doesn't fit even my description of reality.
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August 22, 2012, 10:13:04 AM
 #1055

Almost every purported investment that claims unusually high returns relative to risk is either misrepresented (the risks are higher or the returns likely lower than claimed) or a ponzi scheme.
The recent BTC price drop of 40-45% over the weekend is a reminder of the real risk of holding BTC even for the short term. In light of this, maybe the yields of these investments are not that high after all relative to the risk?
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August 22, 2012, 10:26:00 AM
 #1056

I can't agree with this. I tried to deposit with Vescudero and he only accepted around 1/4 of my offer as deposit. After he increased the total limit, he put a per-deposit limit.
Madoff made people jump through hoops to invest with him. This is typical Ponzi behavior.

Quote
Another borrower, chungenhung recently returned all deposits with interest and shut down operation. I'm not sure he's the first one to do that either. How would you explain these phenomena?
I'd say chungenhung was probably investing the funds in a ponzi and managed to cash out before the ponzi he was investing in collapsed. It's also possible he was really an extremely high risk investment that just happened to pan out by sheer luck. I don't know. Do you know? And if you don't know, how can you rationally evaluate the risk? And if you can't rationally evaluate the risk, why invest?

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 22, 2012, 11:14:16 AM
 #1057

I can't agree with this. I tried to deposit with Vescudero and he only accepted around 1/4 of my offer as deposit. After he increased the total limit, he put a per-deposit limit.
Madoff made people jump through hoops to invest with him. This is typical Ponzi behavior.

In my humble opinion, you are being dismissive because you're convinced that it would be best if everyone stopped investing in these schemes. Although I agree with the sentiment, that approach is hopeless. Regarding Vescudero and others, I don't think decreasing limits and lowering interest is typical Ponzi behavior. It could be a long con, and he could be thinking of expanding after gaining enough trust, but that kind of conviction borders on not being able to do any business with anyone remotely.

I think a lot of people think this way, so I don't see people beginning to withdraw because the scheme could be a Ponzi. One could easily make up a business model to collect money if the goal is to run with a measly 2600 BTC. He could come up with an idea like ASICMINER, run with tens of thousands of BTC and claim identity theft.

Quote
Another borrower, chungenhung recently returned all deposits with interest and shut down operation. I'm not sure he's the first one to do that either. How would you explain these phenomena?
I'd say chungenhung was probably investing the funds in a ponzi and managed to cash out before the ponzi he was investing in collapsed. It's also possible he was really an extremely high risk investment that just happened to pan out by sheer luck. I don't know. Do you know? And if you don't know, how can you rationally evaluate the risk? And if you can't rationally evaluate the risk, why invest?

Might be luck, we don't know, though it's less probable by definition. By the way, if we are talking rationality, why return the funds ever? Either way, the funds are returned, so it's more quantitative proof to the contrary. You could even say that notme and chungenhung (and possibly others) have done a bad thing by being honest.
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August 22, 2012, 12:06:58 PM
 #1058

I can't agree with this. I tried to deposit with Vescudero and he only accepted around 1/4 of my offer as deposit. After he increased the total limit, he put a per-deposit limit.
Madoff made people jump through hoops to invest with him. This is typical Ponzi behavior.

In my humble opinion, you are being dismissive because you're convinced that it would be best if everyone stopped investing in these schemes. Although I agree with the sentiment, that approach is hopeless. Regarding Vescudero and others, I don't think decreasing limits and lowering interest is typical Ponzi behavior. It could be a long con, and he could be thinking of expanding after gaining enough trust, but that kind of conviction borders on not being able to do any business with anyone remotely.

I think a lot of people think this way, so I don't see people beginning to withdraw because the scheme could be a Ponzi. One could easily make up a business model to collect money if the goal is to run with a measly 2600 BTC. He could come up with an idea like ASICMINER, run with tens of thousands of BTC and claim identity theft.

Quote
Another borrower, chungenhung recently returned all deposits with interest and shut down operation. I'm not sure he's the first one to do that either. How would you explain these phenomena?
I'd say chungenhung was probably investing the funds in a ponzi and managed to cash out before the ponzi he was investing in collapsed. It's also possible he was really an extremely high risk investment that just happened to pan out by sheer luck. I don't know. Do you know? And if you don't know, how can you rationally evaluate the risk? And if you can't rationally evaluate the risk, why invest?

Might be luck, we don't know, though it's less probable by definition. By the way, if we are talking rationality, why return the funds ever? Either way, the funds are returned, so it's more quantitative proof to the contrary. You could even say that notme and chungenhung (and possibly others) have done a bad thing by being honest.


Even after Bernie Madoff, Allen Stanford and now pirateat40 you still write rubbish like this? You are a complete idiot. Just give your bitcoins away now, it will save you some time.
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August 22, 2012, 12:26:29 PM
 #1059

In my humble opinion, you are being dismissive because you're convinced that it would be best if everyone stopped investing in these schemes.
Yes, exactly. Legitimate investments don't involve a complete absence of disclosure of what you're investing in, no way to estimate the actual level of risk, and no way to tell whether claimed losses were actually incurred or whether claimed profits were actually legitimate. No honest person should ask for investments on terms only a fool would accept.

We have actually seen offers that were basically: "Give me some money to invest, if I make money, I'll share it with you. Otherwise, you'll have to take my word that I actually lost your money in some kind of actual investment". That was literally all they were saying. And people were actually taking this offer seriously. That shows that this community is massively disconnected from reality.

Quote
Although I agree with the sentiment, that approach is hopeless.
I'm not giving up so easily.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 22, 2012, 01:26:14 PM
 #1060

seriously kids, get fucked on this one.  You were all so arrogant to the bitter end.

I'd say the fact that you're still trolling about it, long past the time when anyone can make a deposit or withdrawal on their own proves your own arrogance.  Its not like you can 'warn' anyone off.  You're just trolling for your own amusement.

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