Bitcoin Forum
December 06, 2016, 02:27:15 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 [44] 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 107909 times)
hgmichna
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 598



View Profile
August 15, 2012, 09:29:29 PM
 #861

… speculation is a zero-sum game.

Generally I'm not sure about this. Assume a speculator, who invests into a start-up business. As the start-up grows, it creates value, for example by inventing and making new products.

The value of the business grows, and the speculator can now sell his shares for a higher price.

This is not a zero-sum game, as the value of the business, and possibly the value of the entire market, has increased.

Perhaps you meant a narrower definition of speculation?
1481034435
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481034435

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481034435
Reply with quote  #2

1481034435
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481034435
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481034435

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481034435
Reply with quote  #2

1481034435
Report to moderator
1481034435
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481034435

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481034435
Reply with quote  #2

1481034435
Report to moderator
1481034435
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481034435

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481034435
Reply with quote  #2

1481034435
Report to moderator
wachtwoord
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile WWW
August 15, 2012, 09:48:44 PM
 #862

Then he does two things: invest and speculate.

Speculation concerns merely the speculation on the increase or decrease of price (not value) of assets. "Someone's gotta lose when someone wins".

Micon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


I'm not the law, but I represent justice


View Profile WWW
August 15, 2012, 10:29:24 PM
 #863

If a company like google was going to get into bitcoin they would need to secure a lot of coins and could afford to pay extra to avoid messing with the price too much.  They wouldnt want to signal their entrance into the market.

Where else are they going to go but pirate ?



Oh, I missed this one. This is a gem.

If Google (or some other big business) would want to secure a lot of BTC, I think they would first contact MtGox and try to negotiate some kind of a deal. Or, just set up a team to manage their bitcoin holdings and do the buying themselves, otc or exchanges. Or just f'in mine the stuff.

But, there's no way someone can buy a significant portion of a limited resource without moving the price up, Pirate or not. Supply and demand.

Mt. Gox is a minor participant in the btc 'economy'.  Have you seen the average daily volumes?  You have tunnel vision.  More btc moves outside Gox between two parties than all the turnover in the average day.

I'm not supporting the Google hypothesis but you really should do some basic math.  You just look, well, like a stoner.

he may look stoned, but you look like a shill:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=9963;sa=showPosts

Chairman SwCPoker.eu Bitcoin Poker 2.0 |  Pro Poker Player  |  blog & podcas DonkDown.com | @BryanMicon | 2015- PGP Key
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 15, 2012, 10:51:20 PM
 #864

You can't make much money that way when there are functioning exchanges and you're not producing a product. In fact, you are much more likely to lose money.

There are a large number of complex reasons why this doesn't work, but here's the short version: Say Bitcoins are trading at roughly $10 and are relatively stable. If not for any manipulations, they'd stay basically there. You have a huge supply of both Bitcoins and USD at several major exchanges. You have no inside knowledge others don't have except what you yourself are going to do. (These assumptions are not necessary, but they make things easier to understand to get the basics.)

So you hatch a plan, you'll sell the price down to $8.50 and then buy a bunch of Bitcoins at the reduced price. Now this only works if you understand that the "natural price" of Bitcoins is more than $8.50. Otherwise, buying at $8.50 is no benefit. And if you know this, so does everyone else.

So as soon as you push the price significantly below $10, you are selling to get down to $8.50 at a loss. And everyone else can buy all your coins for less than their natural price. When you succeed and get the price down to $8.50, you will not be the only one buying. And because people know the price is below the natural price, the price will shoot up very quickly. (Many buyers will be induced by the low price and very few new sellers will appear. If idiots panic sell, you won't be only one person on line with USD to buy them out.)

So the further you push the price from the natural price, the harder it gets to move the price. You take more and more losses. And the further you push the price, the easier it is for it to jump back to the natural price, the easier it gets for others to move the price back.

So manipulations have to be much more subtle to have even a chance of working. You have to gradually push the market to convince a large number of other people that the "natural price" is something other than what it would be if not for your manipulations. And the reason this won't work is because there are a number of well-financed people who are too smart to fall for this. It only takes one to make you lose more and more as you try to move the price at a loss and split the gain more and more as you try to take profit as it goes back. Since there are several, this is just not going to work.

I am an employee of Ripple.
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
koin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 874


View Profile
August 16, 2012, 12:00:35 AM
 #865

new addition for the list?

Quote
"What am I doing with the coins?" 
If I was to provide a simple answer like buying 50 BFL singles and going mining, or putting 10,000 coins into XYZ asset on GLBSE then there wouldn't be much science in that and it would ruin the market that I am looking at.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100913
PatrickHarnett
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518



View Profile
August 16, 2012, 12:14:08 AM
 #866

new addition for the list?

Quote
"What am I doing with the coins?" 
If I was to provide a simple answer like buying 50 BFL singles and going mining, or putting 10,000 coins into XYZ asset on GLBSE then there wouldn't be much science in that and it would ruin the market that I am looking at.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100913

yay - I'm famous.
aq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


View Profile
August 16, 2012, 12:28:02 AM
 #867

This is one of the most revealing thread on the forum. If Satoshi would have been as unimaginative as are those ponzi accusing people he would have never been able to invent Bitcoin. Thinking outside the box seems to be completely impossible for them.
But at least it is a good sign about Bitcoin mass adoption, judging by the number of Joe Sixpacks, that apparently have little more than some TV education Smiley
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 16, 2012, 12:54:23 AM
 #868

This is one of the most revealing thread on the forum. If Satoshi would have been as unimaginative as are those ponzi accusing people he would have never been able to invent Bitcoin. Thinking outside the box seems to be completely impossible for them.
But at least it is a good sign about Bitcoin mass adoption, judging by the number of Joe Sixpacks, that apparently have little more than some TV education Smiley
Only an idiot thinks outside the box when there's a 100% perfect solution that doesn't require it.

I am an employee of Ripple.
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
TheOtherGuy
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 71



View Profile
August 16, 2012, 01:19:34 AM
 #869

new addition for the list?

Quote
"What am I doing with the coins?" 
If I was to provide a simple answer like buying 50 BFL singles and going mining, or putting 10,000 coins into XYZ asset on GLBSE then there wouldn't be much science in that and it would ruin the market that I am looking at.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100913

yay - I'm famous.

Good job and congrats on the new venture PatrickHarnett.

The free advertising is definitely a win for the Starfish!

1NDoRoTapFZNiUhzTPyFdKib66QLJfmcuR
koin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 874


View Profile
August 16, 2012, 06:09:00 AM
 #870

new addition for the list?

Quote
"What am I doing with the coins?"  
If I was to provide a simple answer like buying 50 BFL singles and going mining, or putting 10,000 coins into XYZ asset on GLBSE then there wouldn't be much science in that and it would ruin the market that I am looking at.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100913

yay - I'm famous.

before indoor plumbing they would dig a hole in the ground outside the house.  there was always a tradeoff as to where to dig.  too far and it made for a long walk on a cold night.  too close and your house smells like shit.

i think the securities forum cesspit wasn't dug far enough away.

ughh ...

Quote
The nature of the recipient of the loan will not be discussed.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100800.0
hashman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 915



View Profile
August 16, 2012, 09:02:44 AM
 #871


You can't make much money that way when there are functioning exchanges and you're not producing a product. In fact, you are much more likely to lose money.

[...]

So manipulations have to be much more subtle to have even a chance of working. You have to gradually push the market to convince a large number of other people that the "natural price" is something other than what it would be if not for your manipulations. And the reason this won't work is because there are a number of well-financed people who are too smart to fall for this. It only takes one to make you lose more and more as you try to move the price at a loss and split the gain more and more as you try to take profit as it goes back. Since there are several, this is just not going to work.


Really?  Sorry for the off topic followup but take a look at what DeBeers or OPEC or ATT  or any other famous monopoly / market maker has done.  You don't have to convince anybody what a "natural price" is..  if you have bought all the cheaper items, then anybody who wants an item has to pay the higher price no matter how smart they are. 

In theory anyway.. market maker theory which seems unlikely to be widely published for similar reasons to the fact that cutting edge crypto isn't immediately published.  In any case, a topic for another thread because I doubt its related to these high yield investments. 


Micon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


I'm not the law, but I represent justice


View Profile WWW
August 16, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
 #872

new addition for the list?

Quote
"What am I doing with the coins?" 
If I was to provide a simple answer like buying 50 BFL singles and going mining, or putting 10,000 coins into XYZ asset on GLBSE then there wouldn't be much science in that and it would ruin the market that I am looking at.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100913

I believe the Pirate Ship is going to sink before I have the 10+ hrs to research every iteration of the PPT's on GBLSE and every "I'll pay you unreasonable% per week" thread - although I think I am close, just needs more grooming of the list.  After those are done then it's time to investigate all the questionable mining bonds and the obscure scams that don't fit those categories.  After BCST goes boom, this low-level scammery will die down after the entire community sees the damage done.  I'll bet new rules / categories will be created.  I will look into Patrick's thread.

Chairman SwCPoker.eu Bitcoin Poker 2.0 |  Pro Poker Player  |  blog & podcas DonkDown.com | @BryanMicon | 2015- PGP Key
Micon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


I'm not the law, but I represent justice


View Profile WWW
August 16, 2012, 09:40:37 AM
 #873

new addition for the list?

Quote
"What am I doing with the coins?" 
If I was to provide a simple answer like buying 50 BFL singles and going mining, or putting 10,000 coins into XYZ asset on GLBSE then there wouldn't be much science in that and it would ruin the market that I am looking at.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100913

yay - I'm famous.

Good job and congrats on the new venture PatrickHarnett.

The free advertising is definitely a win for the Starfish!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=38896;sa=showPosts

yikes it seems like these shill and/or pro-Ponzi accounts are also big in the mining threads.  I will bet even money some of the mining bonds are dirty.  These are going to be much harder to prove when compared to this giant obvious Ponzi because there is in fact an underlying business unit that will likely make at least some money.  The most transparent mining bonds with updated stats and verifiable blockchain payments from mining pools should be the standard.  I have not looking into even 1 mining bond yet so I have no clue what I will find.

Chairman SwCPoker.eu Bitcoin Poker 2.0 |  Pro Poker Player  |  blog & podcas DonkDown.com | @BryanMicon | 2015- PGP Key
drakahn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
August 16, 2012, 10:37:42 AM
 #874

You didn't respond last time but it fits again
you say words like investigate, but never like... show up with any results

Seriously, if you have anything else other than 1) "you don't know therefore ponzi" or 2) "omg 7% therefore ponzi" it would be good if it wasn't buried under those two piles of crap

14ga8dJ6NGpiwQkNTXg7KzwozasfaXNfEU
Clipse
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504


View Profile
August 16, 2012, 11:49:30 AM
 #875

Im convinced now Micon is simply Trolling his own thread for higher page rankings.

Everyone with half a brain should just stop posting on this thread to kill its google rankings so that Micon doesnt get his stiff on every day googling himself. Im done posting here, Good day sir.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

We pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
Raoul Duke
aka psy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442



View Profile
August 16, 2012, 02:34:15 PM
 #876

What is pirate and shills' response to http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/15/3243200/bitcoin-ponzi-schemes-savings-and-trust?

I like the quote by Gavin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sKx6lhxM_8

Frankie
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 206



View Profile
August 16, 2012, 02:40:34 PM
 #877

Im convinced now Micon is simply Trolling his own thread for higher page rankings.

Everyone with half a brain should just stop posting on this thread to kill its google rankings so that Micon doesnt get his stiff on every day googling himself. Im done posting here, Good day sir.

Are you capable of writting a post without personal attacks?

Try it (unless for some reason you follow your own advice).
unclescrooge
aka Raphy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868


View Profile
August 16, 2012, 06:13:12 PM
 #878

What is pirate and shills' response to http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/15/3243200/bitcoin-ponzi-schemes-savings-and-trust?

I like the quote by Gavin:

Good advice that I expect will be widely ignored: only invest in what you know.

So-called high yield investments are (almost?) always dressed-up Ponzi schemes. If you "invest" in them then please lick your wounds quietly when they implode. And if you're one of the lucky few who make money on them, don't expect me to admire your investing wisdom, any more than I'd admire the number-picking brilliance of a lottery winner.


(my emphasis)


Aside: Thank you shills, for helping me sharpen my Perl web-parsing skills!

Bitcoin itself is a high yield investment (relative to other currencies), so according to you it's a ponzi?


Shadow383
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


View Profile
August 16, 2012, 06:26:23 PM
 #879

What is pirate and shills' response to http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/15/3243200/bitcoin-ponzi-schemes-savings-and-trust?

I like the quote by Gavin:

Good advice that I expect will be widely ignored: only invest in what you know.

So-called high yield investments are (almost?) always dressed-up Ponzi schemes. If you "invest" in them then please lick your wounds quietly when they implode. And if you're one of the lucky few who make money on them, don't expect me to admire your investing wisdom, any more than I'd admire the number-picking brilliance of a lottery winner.


(my emphasis)


Aside: Thank you shills, for helping me sharpen my Perl web-parsing skills!

Bitcoin itself is a high yield investment (relative to other currencies), so according to you it's a ponzi?


In what possible sense is bitcoin an HYIP?
Bitcoin is just a means of exchanging capital, it has no returns structure whatsoever. Stop trying to confuse the issue.
wachtwoord
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile WWW
August 16, 2012, 06:40:13 PM
 #880

You do understand that HYIP is an abbreviation standing for High Yield Investment Program right? Firstly high is (highly Wink) subjective. Second of all, all other things being equal (risk among other things) high yield investments are better than low yield investments. The term HYIP does not imply scam at all, it is merely an indicator of the yield on the investment.

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 [44] 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!