Bitcoin Forum
July 20, 2017, 08:38:00 PM *
News: Are you prepared for Aug 1 / BIP148?
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 [36] 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 114447 times)
memvola
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 08:32:03 AM
 #701

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?
1500583080
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1500583080

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1500583080
Reply with quote  #2

1500583080
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1500583080
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1500583080

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1500583080
Reply with quote  #2

1500583080
Report to moderator
drakahn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile
August 14, 2012, 08:56:30 AM
 #702

Wouldn't it just be easier for people to show they're not scammers?
Against what proof?
As it stands there is nothing to defend against but baseless claims that don't need any defending against, perhaps I missed some proof amongst the 'ponzi ponzi ponzi' chants, because I've seen none backing up your accusations, so then, with such a lack of proof (And indeed, victims) i think "people" have shown they are not scammers.

What about the claim of "there is no evidence that your business has the required income to pay its incredible interest bill without eroding principle balances"?

Surely it's fairly easy in a currency in which all transactions are on public record in the blockchain to show that you're doing a substantial amount of business?

I mean, given the weekly interest bill, you'd expect BTCST to be doing at least 150k BTC per week in trades even if they were dealing in something with a very high profit margin. It shouldn't be difficult to show.
A lack of evidence is evidence of nothing, so, you have nothing but baseless claims, again please come up with something that isn't 1) "You don't know therefore ponzi" or 2) "7% therefore ponzi", there were some people a while ago trying to prove that pirate never moved any of the coins, I'm guessing they failed at that... Surely with all of your investigations and 36 pages of discussion you have SOMETHING right?
On the contrary, when it comes to Ponzis, a lack of evidence of anything is evidence of a Ponzi. It's also extremely easy to disprove if it's not a ponzi. As it is, there is no evidence that a business side of BS&T even exists. If I'm wrong about this, let me know.
So, anything you don't agree with we can ignore burden of proof and just go to lynching and make them submit?
Does that work both ways, can you prove you aren't a Russian spy? Obviously you must be as I see no evidence supporting anything else, and anything you say is exactly what a Russian spy would say (pre-emptive closing my eyes and ears and screaming lalalalalalala like you guys, you teach well).

14ga8dJ6NGpiwQkNTXg7KzwozasfaXNfEU
aq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 09:09:48 AM
 #703

On the contrary, when it comes to Ponzis, a lack of evidence of anything is evidence of a Ponzi. It's also extremely easy to disprove if it's not a ponzi. As it is, there is no evidence that a business side of BS&T even exists. If I'm wrong about this, let me know.
Well, there are quite a few respected members of this very forum, that know exactly about the BS&T business. You being a Moderator, did you even think about asking them privately before making your ponzi accusations?
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1568


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 14, 2012, 09:25:49 AM
 #704

Well, there are quite a few respected members of this very forum, that know exactly about the BS&T business. You being a Moderator, did you even think about asking them privately before making your ponzi accusations?
I have done so, and have not been impressed at all with the responses that I've gotten. They mostly consist of the same type of implausible explanations made in public. If anyone reading this wishes to claim such special knowledge, you are welcome to send me a private message.

To date, nobody has been able to explain what these things are doing in a way that meets three criteria:

1) It doesn't require some people who invest to prosper at the expense of others who invest in the same enterprise.

2) It doesn't rely on something phenomenally implausible to be the case.

3) It doesn't have at its root some significant misunderstanding of how things work.

It's the same nonsense: arbitrage (fails 2), mining (fails 2 and 3), market manipulation (fails 3), unlimited supply of people willing to pay *way* too much for BTC (fails 2 and 3), perpetual growth (fails 1 and 3), multiple independent ventures that cancel out each other's weaknesses (fails 2 and 3).

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
mp420
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 501


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 09:31:52 AM
 #705

One thing I've been thinking of. I am sure Pirate is running a ponzi scheme since every other alternative is exceedingly far-fetched. But I've been wondering about what is his profit goal. Is he keeping his internal books in USD or BTC? If in USD, he won't want to default even if his scheme grows too slow to pay all his (outgoing) interests, as long as the rising price of BTC against USD compensates for that. And has he already sold enough BTC and planned an exit strategy so that he can keep the scheme going until he's out of BTC? You see, he might think he's already rich enough and he might have a way to disappear so that no one can come after him. So, why not just wait and see how long it takes for the ponzi to collapse on its own?
unclescrooge
aka Raphy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:12:17 AM
 #706

Pirate's turns growth in demand for bitcoins (ie USD flows to bitcoins) into bitcoins profit. That's why he needs massive (at bitcoin scale) capital.

Now back to ponziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Willowbitcoin
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 82



View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:23:21 AM
 #707

Pirate's turns growth in demand for bitcoins (ie USD flows to bitcoins) into bitcoins profit. That's why he needs massive (at bitcoin scale) capital.

Now back to ponziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

I want to believe but what doesn't make sense to me is the fact he has to repay in bitcoins.

So he uses the bitcoins for large sales to investors only to then have to rebuy on the market + interest owed.
It doesn't add up.

The other point that doesn't make sense is why does he offer such a large interest rate ( he actually is paying above 7% to some VIP's) when all of his competitors pay much less than this.

Allot of things don't add up.

I want to believe. I'm getting paid 6% PA from my bank for year. Would love to be getting 7% per week.

hgmichna
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 639


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:31:12 AM
 #708

One thing I've been thinking of. I am sure Pirate is running a ponzi scheme since every other alternative is exceedingly far-fetched. But I've been wondering about what is his profit goal. Is he keeping his internal books in USD or BTC? If in USD, he won't want to default even if his scheme grows too slow to pay all his (outgoing) interests, as long as the rising price of BTC against USD compensates for that. And has he already sold enough BTC and planned an exit strategy so that he can keep the scheme going until he's out of BTC? You see, he might think he's already rich enough and he might have a way to disappear so that no one can come after him. So, why not just wait and see how long it takes for the ponzi to collapse on its own?

You cannot rely on an ever-rising price of bitcoin. If this is another bubble, which is quite conceivable, then it may suddenly collapse and do so too quickly to get out at the top. We have seen this before.

So pirateat40 will continue as long as his stash, valued in dollar, grows, but he will, if he is not too stupid, be wary of unusually high bitcoin/dollar prices. Some people here think that a falling bitcoin price may trigger his exit, and that he has been selling bitcoin all the time, partly to get them out of the block chain and to launder them.

A falling bitcoin price may also indirectly trigger his exit, as some trend followers may want to sell their bitcoins, and for that they have to withdraw them first. (Trend-following is usually not a good strategy, by the way.)

Any big withdrawal order will also trigger his exit, as he will not pay out.

Why not just wait? It is a bit hard to watch a criminal go about his business of stealing money from unsuspecting people and do nothing about it. And with the incredible willingness of some stupid, math-challenged people to part with their money, we may have to wait a little longer, until the exponential curve finally cracks the Ponzi scheme.
finkleshnorts
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:35:04 AM
 #709


I want to believe but what doesn't make sense to me is the fact he has to repay in bitcoins.

So he uses the bitcoins for large sales to investors only to then have to rebuy on the market + interest owed.
It doesn't add up.


this this this this this,
aq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
 #710

I'm getting paid 6% PA from my bank for year. Would love to be getting 7% per week.
7% is not that easy. However, if your not too greedy and accept 6.9%, now, that is easy! Send your coins to bitcoinmax, and withdraw after a week. Voila, 6.9% for you.
hgmichna
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 639


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:38:22 AM
 #711

On the contrary, when it comes to Ponzis, a lack of evidence of anything is evidence of a Ponzi. It's also extremely easy to disprove if it's not a ponzi. As it is, there is no evidence that a business side of BS&T even exists. If I'm wrong about this, let me know.
Well, there are quite a few respected members of this very forum, that know exactly about the BS&T business. You being a Moderator, did you even think about asking them privately before making your ponzi accusations?

Stop bullshitting everybody here. How deep are you in it?

So "respected members" know about the BullShit Trust business? Name one. Then tell us all why a 3,300% annual interest business borrows money in the first place and how it gets such profits. Then, after you did not do that, shut up for good and, if you are indeed in it, think about how to avoid a jail term.
hgmichna
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 639


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:42:48 AM
 #712

The other point that doesn't make sense is why does he offer such a large interest rate ( he actually is paying above 7% to some VIP's) when all of his competitors pay much less than this.

Allot of things don't add up.

I want to believe. I'm getting paid 6% PA from my bank for year. Would love to be getting 7% per week.

Stop even mentioning "7% per week". Name it the ordinary, proper way. It is 3,300% annually.

"7% per week" is a psychological trick for the mathematically challenged to make it sound believable, yet have them calculate how they will get rich quick.

No legitimate business quotes its interest rates per week or per month.
hgmichna
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 639


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:46:21 AM
 #713

7% is not that easy. However, if your not too greedy and accept 6.9%, now, that is easy! Send your coins to bitcoinmax, and withdraw after a week. Voila, 6.9% for you.

For the math-challenged, that is 3,100% per annum.

Of course the crooks won't ever say that, because they are after the kids who skipped maths at school.

Bitcoinmax is an integral part of the BullShit Trust Ponzi scheme.
aq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 10:58:06 AM
 #714

7% is not that easy. However, if your not too greedy and accept 6.9%, now, that is easy! Send your coins to bitcoinmax, and withdraw after a week. Voila, 6.9% for you.

For the math-challenged, that is 3,100% per annum.

Of course the crooks won't ever say that, because they are after the kids who skipped maths at school.

Bitcoinmax is an integral part of the BullShit Trust Ponzi scheme.
Oh, I see that some math gurus have troubles thinking in weeks.
Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Of course, Micon/hgmichna will claim that pirate will ponzi steal those coins out of your wallet, even after you have successfully withdrawn them.
unclescrooge
aka Raphy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 11:09:43 AM
 #715

Pirate's turns growth in demand for bitcoins (ie USD flows to bitcoins) into bitcoins profit. That's why he needs massive (at bitcoin scale) capital.

Now back to ponziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

I want to believe but what doesn't make sense to me is the fact he has to repay in bitcoins.

So he uses the bitcoins for large sales to investors only to then have to rebuy on the market + interest owed.
It doesn't add up.

The other point that doesn't make sense is why does he offer such a large interest rate ( he actually is paying above 7% to some VIP's) when all of his competitors pay much less than this.

Allot of things don't add up.

I want to believe. I'm getting paid 6% PA from my bank for year. Would love to be getting 7% per week.

If you look at the exchange rate, you can see it's controlled (at least I cannot believe such steady rates is natural). If he controls the exchange rate, and as long as he has new clients, then he has no problem rebuying back the coins on the market because he is the market.

No the problem is: who are his "clients"?

The way I see it is that when he will stop (not default), it will be because volumes on the exchanges are becoming too big for him (ie good news for Bitcoin). And I have no problem with him having such an impact on the exchange rate because it can do this only as long s there is demand for bitcoins, and that if he exit now (or even if he try to crash the market), the demand will stil be there, and the market will go on, just more volatile. He controls the price, not the currency itself.

Now it might well be a ponzi, but the last two months led me to think it's not. The "ponzi campaign" seemed to work quite well, the withdrawal must have been large, according to GLBSE PPT rates and forum talks, yet he has been able to meet his obligations. He showed up publically in Vegas. After this meeting, Goat has started offering fully insured PPT (meaning he was confident). And so on.

So yes, I believe it is possible to have that kind of return, in bitcoins. But I won't insult you if you think otherwise...

JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1568


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 14, 2012, 11:19:06 AM
 #716

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
aq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 11:27:14 AM
 #717

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.
Bitcoin had some -10000% inflation over the last few years. Now good luck fitting Bitcoin into your fiat world view.
Shadow383
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 11:52:56 AM
 #718

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.


Interesting point on that:

If the idea that bitcoinmax is getting paid 7.7% is true, that puts payb.tc's interest rate at 4738%, which is about twice what Charles Ponzi offered  Cheesy

Well, there are quite a few respected members of this very forum, that know exactly about the BS&T business. You being a Moderator, did you even think about asking them privately before making your ponzi accusations?
I have done so, and have not been impressed at all with the responses that I've gotten. They mostly consist of the same type of implausible explanations made in public. If anyone reading this wishes to claim such special knowledge, you are welcome to send me a private message.

To date, nobody has been able to explain what these things are doing in a way that meets three criteria:

1) It doesn't require some people who invest to prosper at the expense of others who invest in the same enterprise.

2) It doesn't rely on something phenomenally implausible to be the case.

3) It doesn't have at its root some significant misunderstanding of how things work.

It's the same nonsense: arbitrage (fails 2), mining (fails 2 and 3), market manipulation (fails 3), unlimited supply of people willing to pay *way* too much for BTC (fails 2 and 3), perpetual growth (fails 1 and 3), multiple independent ventures that cancel out each other's weaknesses (fails 2 and 3).

Quoting this to bring it back to the front page.
I would love to hear an explanation that covers this without 1-3.

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
aq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 12:01:58 PM
 #719

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
LOL, "Mr pirate, I sentence you to 10 years Gulag for paying too high interest rates."
Shadow383
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


View Profile
August 14, 2012, 12:07:54 PM
 #720

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
LOL, "Mr pirate, I sentence you to 10 years Gulag for paying too high interest rates."
Presuming he can pay everyone back, then the minimum would likely be an IRS investigation  Wink

If not, then the charges would be fraud-based, and in the millions of USD.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 [36] 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!