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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 108030 times)
JoelKatz
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August 14, 2012, 11:19:06 AM
 #721

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 14, 2012, 11:27:14 AM
 #722

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.
Bitcoin had some -10000% inflation over the last few years. Now good luck fitting Bitcoin into your fiat world view.
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August 14, 2012, 11:52:56 AM
 #723

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.


Interesting point on that:

If the idea that bitcoinmax is getting paid 7.7% is true, that puts payb.tc's interest rate at 4738%, which is about twice what Charles Ponzi offered  Cheesy

Well, there are quite a few respected members of this very forum, that know exactly about the BS&T business. You being a Moderator, did you even think about asking them privately before making your ponzi accusations?
I have done so, and have not been impressed at all with the responses that I've gotten. They mostly consist of the same type of implausible explanations made in public. If anyone reading this wishes to claim such special knowledge, you are welcome to send me a private message.

To date, nobody has been able to explain what these things are doing in a way that meets three criteria:

1) It doesn't require some people who invest to prosper at the expense of others who invest in the same enterprise.

2) It doesn't rely on something phenomenally implausible to be the case.

3) It doesn't have at its root some significant misunderstanding of how things work.

It's the same nonsense: arbitrage (fails 2), mining (fails 2 and 3), market manipulation (fails 3), unlimited supply of people willing to pay *way* too much for BTC (fails 2 and 3), perpetual growth (fails 1 and 3), multiple independent ventures that cancel out each other's weaknesses (fails 2 and 3).

Quoting this to bring it back to the front page.
I would love to hear an explanation that covers this without 1-3.

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
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August 14, 2012, 12:01:58 PM
 #724

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
LOL, "Mr pirate, I sentence you to 10 years Gulag for paying too high interest rates."
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August 14, 2012, 12:07:54 PM
 #725

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
LOL, "Mr pirate, I sentence you to 10 years Gulag for paying too high interest rates."
Presuming he can pay everyone back, then the minimum would likely be an IRS investigation  Wink

If not, then the charges would be fraud-based, and in the millions of USD.
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August 14, 2012, 12:13:06 PM
 #726

And, for good measure, those who gain from the scam are gaining stolen wealth. Depending on how deeply they are involved, they may belong behind bars as well. "I did not know what the pirate was doing," does not count as an excuse. I am saying it here. If you read it, you know.

Not sure if that is true morally, or legally. How do you come up with these things?

Depends where in the world you live, for some members it's certainly true.
LOL, "Mr pirate, I sentence you to 10 years Gulag for paying too high interest rates."
Presuming he can pay everyone back, then the minimum would likely be an IRS investigation  Wink
Presuming he is not paying his taxes, can you estimate how much Bitcoins he will have to pay to the IRS?
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August 14, 2012, 12:16:09 PM
 #727

Bitcoin had some -10000% inflation over the last few years. Now good luck fitting Bitcoin into your fiat world view.
It is the obligation of everyone who asks other people for money to ensure that the people giving them money understand the terms under which they are taking that money. If you can't fit the arrangement into their world view, you have no business taking their money. In any event, there's no conceivable way anyone could pay those kinds of interest rates on borrowed funds denominated in Bitcoins while the price of Bitcoin is shooting upward. The only way to sustain those kinds of interest rates for months is if the exchange rate is relatively stable.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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aq
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August 14, 2012, 12:29:33 PM
 #728

Bitcoin had some -10000% inflation over the last few years. Now good luck fitting Bitcoin into your fiat world view.
It is the obligation of everyone who asks other people for money to ensure that the people giving them money understand the terms under which they are taking that money. If you can't fit the arrangement into their world view, you have no business taking their money. In any event, there's no conceivable way anyone could pay those kinds of interest rates on borrowed funds denominated in Bitcoins while the price of Bitcoin is shooting upward. The only way to sustain those kinds of interest rates for months is if the exchange rate is relatively stable.
See, everyone is free to invest with BS&T, no one is forced to do it. The conditions and terms are here. If you don't like it, don't invest.
The great thing about Bitcoin is that it is about personal freedom, and the last thing we need is to replace government oversight by some Micon/JoelKatz oversight.
JoelKatz
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August 14, 2012, 12:50:35 PM
 #729

See, everyone is free to invest with BS&T, no one is forced to do it. The conditions and terms are here. If you don't like it, don't invest.
The great thing about Bitcoin is that it is about personal freedom
I completely agree.
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and the last thing we need is to replace government oversight by some Micon/JoelKatz oversight.
Well, that's where you're wrong. *Precisely* what we need to do is replace government oversight with private oversight. Did you see the government doing anything about Madoff? They were practically a co-conspirator. It was private individuals who noticed how perfectly Madoff fit the profile of a Ponzi scheme who sounded the alarm.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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August 14, 2012, 01:12:18 PM
 #730

See, everyone is free to invest with BS&T, no one is forced to do it. The conditions and terms are here. If you don't like it, don't invest.
The great thing about Bitcoin is that it is about personal freedom
I completely agree.
Quote
and the last thing we need is to replace government oversight by some Micon/JoelKatz oversight.
Well, that's where you're wrong. *Precisely* what we need to do is replace government oversight with private oversight. Did you see the government doing anything about Madoff? They were practically a co-conspirator. It was private individuals who noticed how perfectly Madoff fit the profile of a Ponzi scheme who sounded the alarm.
Sure, someone that has absolutely no clue about BS&T (ie you) will oversight my decision whether or not I investigate. No way!
I am very thankful that Bitcoin is freedom, I can make my own decisions based on my own due diligence. I don't need no oversight.
Advice? Why not, I am free to ignore it, and still make my own decisions.

In contrast your perfect world:
Government/JoelKatz don't like wikileaks? OK, so I am no longer allowed to donate.
Micon/JoelKatz don't like pirate? OK, so I am no longer allowed to invest.

See, they way you put your arguments, I think you are/where a huge SolidCoin fan, because they had exactly what you desire - central oversight. Mind you, it failed for the very same reason.
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August 14, 2012, 01:17:35 PM
 #731

See, everyone is free to invest with BS&T, no one is forced to do it. The conditions and terms are here. If you don't like it, don't invest.
The great thing about Bitcoin is that it is about personal freedom
I completely agree.
Quote
and the last thing we need is to replace government oversight by some Micon/JoelKatz oversight.
Well, that's where you're wrong. *Precisely* what we need to do is replace government oversight with private oversight. Did you see the government doing anything about Madoff? They were practically a co-conspirator. It was private individuals who noticed how perfectly Madoff fit the profile of a Ponzi scheme who sounded the alarm.
Sure, someone that has absolutely no clue about BS&T (ie you) will oversight my decision whether or not I investigate. No way!
I am very thankful that Bitcoin is freedom, I can make my own decisions based on my own due diligence. I don't need no oversight.
Advice? Why not, I am free to ignore it, and still make my own decisions.

In contrast your perfect world:
Government/JoelKatz don't like wikileaks? OK, so I am no longer allowed to donate.
Micon/JoelKatz don't like pirate? OK, so I am no longer allowed to invest.

See, they way you put your arguments, I think you are/where a huge SolidCoin fan, because they had exactly what you desire - central oversight. Mind you, it failed for the very same reason.

I think you are misunderstanding what JoelKatz is saying.

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Micon
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August 14, 2012, 01:24:07 PM
 #732

Micon, why is bitdaytrade on the list. I couldn't care less, but having legit stuff on there kindof invalidates the whole list. At least give reasons.


I thought that one was self-explanatory.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81357.0

Joel is all over it already & gives very clear explanations of this particular scam. 

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mp420
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August 14, 2012, 01:24:16 PM
 #733

Hey, you Pirate supporters, could you point me to ONE case in history where someone has paid consistently several thousand percent REAL interest rate for an unlimited number of debtors over extended time where the nature of the business was not disclosed to investors that didn't turn out to be a scam.

'Cause these always are scams in the end.

It's an entirely different thing to invest in SHARES of a company. That might actually generate astronomical revenue, if you're very lucky.
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August 14, 2012, 01:28:55 PM
 #734

It's pretty hilarious watching the Pirate-folk having their little meltdown and pulling out random poker statistics that have nothing to do with anything.

It will be especially funny seeing which ones will disappear after Pirate defaults. Greed is one helluva drug!

It is an old tactic you can observe here all the time. They are trying to water down or derail the thread, trying to prevent analysis of the Ponzi scheme.

It does not have any effect on intelligent readers.

Yes, the personal attacks are only to derail the actual discussion. 

With Pirate so silent and his thread locked, you can be sure he is still pulling the strings behind the scenes, encouraging the affiliates to mobilize the FUDdettes into fighting this thread. 

TY to the intelligent readers keeping this thread on track.  Keep dropping facts backed up with links and do not use personal insults. 

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August 14, 2012, 01:31:42 PM
 #735

Micon, why is bitdaytrade on the list. I couldn't care less, but having legit stuff on there kindof invalidates the whole list. At least give reasons.


I thought that one was self-explanatory.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81357.0

Joel is all over it already & gives very clear explanations of this particular scam. 

bitdaytrade != mybitcointrade

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August 14, 2012, 01:33:15 PM
 #736

Micon, why is bitdaytrade on the list. I couldn't care less, but having legit stuff on there kindof invalidates the whole list. At least give reasons.


I thought that one was self-explanatory.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81357.0

Joel is all over it already & gives very clear explanations of this particular scam. 

bitdaytrade != mybitcointrade

They wont know it cause they dont do any research.

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labestiol
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August 14, 2012, 01:38:45 PM
 #737

Micon, why is bitdaytrade on the list. I couldn't care less, but having legit stuff on there kindof invalidates the whole list. At least give reasons.


I thought that one was self-explanatory.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81357.0

Joel is all over it already & gives very clear explanations of this particular scam. 

bitdaytrade != mybitcointrade

They wont know it cause they dont do any research.

Who is they ??
I understand that it's a good strategy to associate Micon with anyone having high doubts on pirate and friends (to say the least), but it won't work...

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August 14, 2012, 01:39:45 PM
 #738

Hey, you Pirate supporters, could you point me to ONE case in history where someone has paid consistently several thousand percent REAL interest rate for an unlimited number of debtors over extended time where the nature of the business was not disclosed to investors that didn't turn out to be a scam.

The extended time you speak of is right at a year and its in a brand new/emerging technology.  Look at any brand new, rapidly growing company and their rates will be off the charts and of course if you extrapolate those rates to infinite they look ridiculous. That's part of the point that the 'pirate supporters' are trying to make.. a high interest rate isn't a clear indicator all by itself.

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August 14, 2012, 02:14:52 PM
 #739

If BS&T is somehow a ponzi, why would Pirate encourage stable balances?  He's offering people running the trust accounts a .5% bonus if they can keep their total trust account balance stable within 5%.  Interest payments don't count, but deposits and withdrawals do.  If he is indeed a ponzi, why would he be discouraging deposits >5%?  Obviously paying out 7% would rapidly overtake deposits <5%, so what's the game plan with that.  I'm not convinced Pirate is a ponzi, although I cannot 100% say he isn't since I'm not actually him so I'm hoping someone from the 'other side' can help with this.

OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, if someone chooses to have their interest paid out and manually reinvests it by sending them back to their deposit address that'd put them over the 5% limit pretty quickly and they wouldn't get the bonus, but if they automatically reinvest the same amount of interest they can increase their account balance by far more than the 5% limit each month. That's quite interesting - it effectively gives an incentive for people who want to reinvest to keep the interest money within the scheme, which means that if it is a ponzi it can keep going for longer because pirateat40 no longer needs to keep as many cold hard bitcoins around for the weekly interest payments. (Plus, presumably if they then decide to manually withdraw a substantial portion of the interest they'd be penalized fot that too.)

Also, remember that he's doing this at the same time as opening up BS&T to new deposits, so that he's no longer going to be dependant on pass-through funds to bring new money into BS&T. What's more, whilst the interest rates on direct investments are still high enough to get people interested they're much cheaper for him than the same amounts of new deposits through passthroughs which are paid the top interest rate. Plus, his incentives for investing more money initially and for automatically reinvesting your interest work much better on individual investors than they do on investors who're going through pass-through funds.

Come to think of it, this doesn't even sound like a very effective way to discourage depositing more money unless you're a PPT or not depositing that much. How much do you have to deposit before the extra interest on the additional deposit far outweighs the reward lost?


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August 14, 2012, 02:15:39 PM
 #740

Anyway, the pirate investment works in weeks, hence 7% a week. BS&T pays the interest every week, not every year. So you can withdraw after a single week, and still have those 7%.
Regardless of the frequency with which interest is paid, the rate should be quoted on a yearly basis. Annualized rates permit apples-to-apple comparisons both to interest rates on other instruments and to inflation rates. Many countries require interest rates to be specified in this forum to prevent precisely this type of deceptive description.

I've been investing money on and off for a couple decades now (not in US though), and I've never heard compounded interest noted in the standard text. With correct notation, if you have your money in 6% nightly interest, that means you get (6/365)% per day, which gives you around 6.2% compounded yearly.

I'm often wrong about these things, so I just asked a bank manager about it. She confirmed that rates are quoted yearly but as simple interest, with the compounding frequency specified. So the correct notation for BTCS&T's 7% weekly deposit should be "365% weekly interest". Which gives you around 3405% compounded (yearly).

3405% by itself, besides being the wrong (deceptive?) notation, lacks the compounding frequency information. There are many investment vehicles that don't compound yearly. Daily and monthly are often quoted. Having said that, 7% weekly is also wrong (but probably less deceptive).
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