Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 08:22:51 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 [59] 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"  (Read 108028 times)
miscreanity
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 07:27:22 AM
 #1161

IMO

Right there.

This has one of three outcomes:

  • Pirate absconds and cements a position of infamy in Bitcoin history
  • He defaults, but continues in the community with a damaged reputation
  • Funds are returned, the naysayers are humiliated, and he secures legendary status in Bitcoin lore

None of these have any truly long term effects on Bitcoin as a system; it remains fundamentally sound.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
Frankie
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 206



View Profile
August 28, 2012, 12:38:14 PM
 #1162

IMO

Right there.

This has one of three outcomes:

  • Pirate absconds and cements a position of infamy in Bitcoin history
  • He defaults, but continues in the community with a damaged reputation
  • Funds are returned, the naysayers are humiliated, and he secures legendary status in Bitcoin lore

None of these have any truly long term effects on Bitcoin as a system; it remains fundamentally sound.

I agree the bitcoin system remains sound (although it may get some unfavorable press that slows down adoption incrementally). In fact, the system may be even stronger because the next Ponzi will find it harder to build up when evangelists like you will be more widely recognized as the fools and shills you are.

Maged: I know you're not at liberty to discuss the details, but what is the analyzed estimate of the number of coins Pirate got away with? (i.e., the remaining principal minus withdrawn interest)
makomk
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 01:23:34 PM
 #1163

In contrast, Ponzi schemes never provide investors with any way to know where their money is going. They never provide any way to establish the source of purported profits. There is never any way for investors to assess the level of risk, the specific risks, or the connection between those risks and the amounts their investment will lose. Ponzi schemes always promise absurdly high returns relative to risks and generally hand wave and give vague explanations of how those returns will be accomplished. A common claim is that the Ponzi operator knows some secret way to make money and that revealing it to others would ruin the opportunity.
That's not exactly accurate - there have been Ponzi schemes out there that purport to tell investors where their money is going and where the profits are coming from. Madoff's ponzi was one to a certain extent, as was the Perma-Pave ponzi I mentioned earlier in the thread. One warning sign of a ponzi or other investment scam is that their claims as to where they're getting the money from don't stand up to scrutiny. There's no evidence that their customers have received the products they claim to be selling, or they'd have to have made more trades in a particular market than actually happened, or their sums don't add up, or...

Quad XC6SLX150 Board: 860 MHash/s or so.
SIGS ABOUT BUTTERFLY LABS ARE PAID ADS
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 28, 2012, 01:30:51 PM
 #1164

In contrast, Ponzi schemes never provide investors with any way to know where their money is going. They never provide any way to establish the source of purported profits. There is never any way for investors to assess the level of risk, the specific risks, or the connection between those risks and the amounts their investment will lose. Ponzi schemes always promise absurdly high returns relative to risks and generally hand wave and give vague explanations of how those returns will be accomplished. A common claim is that the Ponzi operator knows some secret way to make money and that revealing it to others would ruin the opportunity.
That's not exactly accurate - there have been Ponzi schemes out there that purport to tell investors where their money is going and where the profits are coming from. Madoff's ponzi was one to a certain extent, as was the Perma-Pave ponzi I mentioned earlier in the thread. One warning sign of a ponzi or other investment scam is that their claims as to where they're getting the money from don't stand up to scrutiny. There's no evidence that their customers have received the products they claim to be selling, or they'd have to have made more trades in a particular market than actually happened, or their sums don't add up, or...
So which part did you think wasn't exactly accurate? Read over what I said very carefully. I think you were thinking I said something I actually didn't say. For example, purporting to tell investors where their money is going is perfectly consistent with not giving investors any way to know where their money is going.

I am an employee of Ripple.
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
Maged
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 03:26:56 PM
 #1165

Maged: I know you're not at liberty to discuss the details, but what is the analyzed estimate of the number of coins Pirate got away with? (i.e., the remaining principal minus withdrawn interest)
Based on the information we have (which is not complete), he most likely got out with around 200k BTC. However, we never analyzed the last week to get those withdrawal numbers and it's also very likely that most of the BTC was sold at around $5. Worst case, he still got away with half a million USD, although it is more likely closer to $1 million USD.

MrTeal
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 03:27:17 PM
 #1166

Micon, now you have done it.

what was the total btc lost on the current issues of PPT bonds? surely you know and wont be as arrogant as to say "look it up yourself" or "not your info" like payb.tc
If you include interest, 8640. That's really not fair though, since some of the bonds haven't even matured yet. Just principle, 5760. At a strike price of 1.04 it would be a little more, 6120.
Shadow383
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 03:47:03 PM
 #1167

Maged: I know you're not at liberty to discuss the details, but what is the analyzed estimate of the number of coins Pirate got away with? (i.e., the remaining principal minus withdrawn interest)
Based on the information we have (which is not complete), he most likely got out with around 200k BTC. However, we never analyzed the last week to get those withdrawal numbers and it's also very likely that most of the BTC was sold at around $5. Worst case, he still got away with half a million USD, although it is more likely closer to $1 million USD.

Do you think this address is plausible?
https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

It's cashed out about 220,000BTC since the collapse.
hgmichna
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 598



View Profile
August 28, 2012, 04:04:17 PM
 #1168

Maged: I know you're not at liberty to discuss the details, but what is the analyzed estimate of the number of coins Pirate got away with? (i.e., the remaining principal minus withdrawn interest)
Based on the information we have (which is not complete), he most likely got out with around 200k BTC. However, we never analyzed the last week to get those withdrawal numbers and it's also very likely that most of the BTC was sold at around $5. Worst case, he still got away with half a million USD, although it is more likely closer to $1 million USD.

I hope that the explanations and warnings here in the forums have spoilt his plans to a significant extent. I'm glad he could not run away with more.

Actually half a million US$ or even $1m is not a good gain for such a monstrous scam even from the point of view of a criminal.

We can thank Micon, Vladimir, JoelKatz, Vandroiy, and more for preventing a much worse outcome. I also admire those who did some cool analysis of the data, perhaps not always publicly visible. All this showed a significant amount of resolve to stand up against a criminal and not simply let him get away with whatever he wanted or had planned. I would still like to see him caught and punished though.
augustocroppo
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 742


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 04:27:45 PM
 #1169


Do you think this address is plausible?
https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

It's cashed out about 220,000BTC since the collapse.

NO!

The user controlling that address is not pirate40!


Angry



Micon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218


I'm not the law, but I represent justice


View Profile WWW
August 28, 2012, 08:19:45 PM
 #1170


Do you think this address is plausible?
https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

It's cashed out about 220,000BTC since the collapse.

NO!

The user controlling that address is not pirate40!


Angry



1)  really?  seems like it

2)  any proof it's not?

Chairman SwCPoker.eu Bitcoin Poker 2.0 |  Pro Poker Player  |  blog & podcas DonkDown.com | @BryanMicon | 2015- PGP Key
imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
August 28, 2012, 08:27:00 PM
 #1171


Do you think this address is plausible?
https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=1DkyBEKt5S2GDtv7aQw6rQepAvnsRyHoYM

It's cashed out about 220,000BTC since the collapse.

NO!

The user controlling that address is not pirate40!


Angry



1)  really?  seems like it

2)  any proof it's not?

I actually asked Maged about this earlier but haven't heard back yet. 

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
miscreanity
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


View Profile
August 28, 2012, 09:15:50 PM
 #1172

Based on the information we have (which is not complete), he most likely got out with around 200k BTC. However, we never analyzed the last week to get those withdrawal numbers and it's also very likely that most of the BTC was sold at around $5. Worst case, he still got away with half a million USD, although it is more likely closer to $1 million USD.

I have a problem with taking anyone's word on this information. If it doesn't matter now that Pirate has shut down, why not release it? The accusing party demanded that Pirate release information, yet won't share its own discovery? What's so proprietary about this admittedly inconsequential information? The royal 'we' sounds like an excuse.

I believe there's a word for this: hypocrisy.

Another problem I have - if Pirate was running a scam and this information is relevant, then the longer it takes for it to be opened to further scrutiny, the longer Pirate has to obscure his trail. Intervening during a crime in progress depends heavily on information. As far as I'm concerned right now, the information is either fabricated, or the parties involved with it are obstructing community efforts to discover what's going on.

Or maybe Maged is Pirate, spreading more misinformation.
jbreher
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484


lose: unfind ... loose: untight


View Profile
August 29, 2012, 12:00:48 AM
 #1173


1)  BurtW, ...

3)  The arrogance and outright lies he spread make me sick.

All right Micon - that's a friend of mine you are speaking about. Do you have proof that BurtW has lied about anything? Please quote.

And what about your lies, hmmmm? Provide evidence for the following blind assertions you made in a single post:

"BurtW helped Pirateat40 funnel 100k's of BTC to his scam via PPT bonds" - hint - you've already been corrected in this very thread.

"never invested his own monies" - while I could be anyone claiming anything, I know this assertion to be false. But most importantly, where's your evidence? You do not have any, because you are lying. Making it up as you go along.

In the course of just a couple weeks, you've gone off uncountable times half-cocked with wild assertions that are provably false. With never a mea culpa, apology, or retraction. I think you mean well in general, but your buffoonery is casting a lot of collateral damage. Put that thing away before somebody really gets hurt.


1)  retraction - looks like BurtW was not as smart as i thought.  if he fired his own BTC and set up the PPT system AND posted that it for sure wasnt a ponzi in his sig and i almost forgot about the fake $10k Bet thread.....  im now thinking this is a guy that Believed Pirate lies in totality

You are careening from wall to wall here. So is BurtW an evil mastermind co-conspirator actively stealing vast sums, or a hapless simpleton to be preyed upon by the typical denizen of back alleys? You can't have it both ways.

2)  i think we need to add up some #'s and see how Big of a co-conspirator BurtW is.  looks like he will rank #2 to payb.tc.  I should have ran the math first or phrased it different, but its a considerable sum.  how many BTC are the total of the last round of bonds? those are all Pirate profit now.

You're thrashing again. GLBSE lists the total bonds issued for each and every security. Never mind the fact that BurtW is no longer affiliated with the PPT.x issues. But that has been openly announced. And no, *I'm* not looking it up on your behalf either. Do your own damn legwork.

3) my main assertions are full-cocked, and all look to be 100% true (are you reading the same thread?) this was about Pirate being a total Ponzi schemer paying 7%/wk and it would go boom soon - and it went boom

As far as Pirate being a Ponzi operator, current preponderance of evidence is on your side. Personally, I consider the final verdict still to be out. But the central point is that you've made scores of other assertions that are provably false.

I'm just suggesting that you be a bit more precise about your accusations. To do otherwise makes you look the fool.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 29, 2012, 12:23:10 AM
 #1174

You are careening from wall to wall here. So is BurtW an evil mastermind co-conspirator actively stealing vast sums, or a hapless simpleton to be preyed upon by the typical denizen of back alleys? You can't have it both ways.
Amazingly, you can have both. You can have people who are evil masterminds with respect to those they solicit investments from and hapless simpletons with respect to those they pay the money to. It's actually not an uncommon characteristic of Ponzi schemes.

It's the flipside of the fact that you will find both arguments that "Everyone knew it was a Ponzi scheme, so people who lost money weren't really scammed" and "We still don't know it's a Ponzi". You will even see these two completely contradictory arguments made by the same people within a few minutes.

The basic psychology is that on a rational level, you know that it is almost certainly a Ponzi. But you still believe irrationally that if you invest you will make money, likely because you think it's still early. So you act on the belief, that you really don't have, that you don't "really know" that it's a Ponzi "for sure". You convince yourself the on-paper profits you will never withdraw are real, so you start to believe that you are doing well and that convincing others to join will actually help them. And, of course, it will help you. Then you start using pressure and deception to solicit others, telling yourself it's to help them, but of course (coincidentally) it also helps you. However, you are still a sucker falling for a Ponzi scheme.

You really are both a hapless simpleton and an evil mastermind at the same time. Amazing but true.

Consider a PPT operator who says the equivalent of, "Yeah, I guess I knew it was probably a Ponzi scheme, but I still figured people could get in early enough that they'd still make money." Simpleton or mastermind?


I am an employee of Ripple.
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
drrussellshane
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 548


View Profile WWW
August 29, 2012, 12:48:33 AM
 #1175

Joel, how do you feel about Social Security, and the people who participate in it?

Buy a TREZOR! Premier BTC hardware wallet. If you're reading this, you should probably buy one if you don't already have one. You'll thank me later.
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
August 29, 2012, 12:58:16 AM
 #1176

Guys...guys....guys..... !

Pirate is going to pay. He contacted the PPT Operators and everything.

Please stop all of the hate.

Clipse
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504


View Profile
August 29, 2012, 01:01:17 AM
 #1177

Id love to know what news he got for the PPT cause he just announced defaulting in irc, fuck knows whats going on. :/

Paybtc have any news on this ?

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

We pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
Shadow383
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


View Profile
August 29, 2012, 01:05:51 AM
 #1178

Pirate just declared default:

<pirateat40> As much as I've tried to meet the deadlines within the community, there're conditions beyond my control which have escalated the process to the point it is today.
<pirateat40> Bitcoin Savings & Trust has hereby given notice of default to it's account holders.

<pirateat40> No timeline or further information is available at this time.


This is from #btcst channel, the official bitcoin savings and trust chat.
Hey! BurtW! Might want to update your bet thread  Cheesy
jbreher
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484


lose: unfind ... loose: untight


View Profile
August 29, 2012, 02:04:34 AM
 #1179

You are careening from wall to wall here. So is BurtW an evil mastermind co-conspirator actively stealing vast sums, or a hapless simpleton to be preyed upon by the typical denizen of back alleys? You can't have it both ways.
Amazingly, you can have both. You can have people who are evil masterminds with respect to those they solicit investments from and hapless simpletons with respect to those they pay the money to. It's actually not an uncommon characteristic of Ponzi schemes.

...

Consider a PPT operator who says the equivalent of, "Yeah, I guess I knew it was probably a Ponzi scheme, but I still figured people could get in early enough that they'd still make money." Simpleton or mastermind?

C'mon, Joel. That is _clearly_ not what I was replying to. I was directly addressing Micon's assertion that BurtW was simultaneously so stupid that he put his own money in Pirate, and that he was so evil that he duped others into the scheme, under full knowledge that it was a fraud.

And if you back up a couple of posts, the instigating factor was the outright lies being propagated by Micon.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.
Shadow383
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336


View Profile
August 29, 2012, 02:07:26 AM
 #1180

I was directly addressing Micon's assertion that BurtW was simultaneously so stupid that he put his own money in Pirate, and that he was so evil that he duped others into the scheme, under full knowledge that it was a fraud.

I don't for even a tenth of a second believe that he actually added 10kBTC to a bullshit & trust account when he says he did.
The guy's a scammer, not a moron.
Pages: « 1 ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 [59] 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!