So it is 7.07c kWh and PLUS the monthly fee per miner?

Just double-checking.

Still confused. But somewhat closer.

Brad

This is from the data hall MiningSky Ltd from BC Hydro in Canada.

Anyone want to translate the following data hall stuff below. Yes, this relates to Bitmain profitability, thus this as an aside, on this thread, thus I deem it legit.

https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/transmission_rate.html

From what I can tell it comes out to 9.5c kWh complete? Or is this Canadian $$$? or am I utterly off the mark?

Thanks. Befuddled on above.

Brad

---

See above on post on what you think about that for pricing.

But I've not found Any Data Hall, WITHOUT hidden costs, in which it comes out to less than 9.5c kWh. Seems folks are raising the electric prices as BTC value and Data Hall profits go down. So find someone with a 'clear' answer and miners will likely flock to their door.

Thus, my whining on here, every time I go to pull the trigger (or used to before the 27.6% tariff in the USA back before) on further research the data halls that claimed 6-7c kWh after fees/setup/etc were really 9-9.5c kWh...and I am from hearsay, hearing from others that the prices have gone up. I have one buddy who is grandfathered in at 8c kWh in Colorado (no new folk for a year at the place is full) that just had his bumped to 9.5c kWh. I guess utility electric company prices move onward and upward regardless of miner success. Anyway, find something on here. I'd settle for someone trustworthy in east Tim Buck Too...and a decent price with some decent safeguards...just not hearing anything.

Back to the main thrust, I suppose someone on Bitcointalk will find a 6c kWh data hall that would take small miner me. At that point, the 27.6% tariff rears its head and I would be despondent on finding such and having no logical way to mine there at Bitman or other prices anyway with the tariff. Perhaps I am better off ignorant and as you say thinking 10c kWh is the likely outcome as long as a tariff is around. I'd hate to be in the position to mine again only to find out the tariff alone killed my ASIC dreams! (so I addicted as an ASIC miner I was/am/is...so confused)

later

Brad

Whales at 'weekend' play. Let's drive the 'small fry' nuts and just let the bots run amuck! (Or what I imagine what they are doing besides

strip poker Monopoly with Super Models on their yachts...you know normal BTC whale type Sundays)

Not practical in the upper midwest (Minnesota). Xcel Utilities will only pay a maximum of OVER 10% of your average monthly use based on your past year. So if my average monthly use is $60 for last year, that would be $66 bucks. Any amount above that average made by solar panels goes into the meter and Xcel sells all excess from everyone over dumped by solar into the meter at spec electric prices..and make a killing. Also they currently claim that my electric rate is 8.79c kWh.

In reality after fees, last month's usage it was 17.29c per kWh. Maybe my winter rates may be 15c kWh. My current data hall rates for ONE S9i thru buddy (Maxumark) is 10c kWh. So, I did pressure Xcel and find out of a large rooftop flat dormer on the roof. I could split it. 2 panels. Say use 1kw a month out of 9kw a month for Xcel to a panel of my own. and that would leave 8kw for my own use. With Minnesota and Night and All ...say average I would have MAYBE 4kw average maybe I could draw upon? Maybe? That would be what maybe 2 s9i's or so underclocked?

The price, last I looked with solar rebates this year was 21K (from 29k) to put up the above mentioned 9k solar setup complete. But rebates are going away end of 2019. All I think? Also 30% tariff on Chinese Solar Panels (maybe on top of regular tariffs as well? could it really be 57.6% with fees). Beyond dorked we are on this idea.

This does not work on so many levels as more or less impossible to justify for my home electric use. Maybe with a hobby farm or something, but as it is it is a no-go in a big way. My brother however put up a 20kw setup 7 years ago the utilities had to grandfather him in..he makes $250 to $300 a month profit I think. None of this 10% limit crap. Amazing how once being an entrepreneur works dandy in 2012 or so now the big guys come along in 2019 and change the rules to be more centralized an't it? You can't make money as a utility if every homeowner can take a chance and overbuild by 1/3 and sell the electric back. Thus change the laws and keep the Ad's going on T.V. for your Xcel centralized wind and solar farms here in Minnesota along with Nuclear. Got to keep all the marbles, don't ya know. No profit in this decentralized approach if you are a utility.

So no go. Indeed, by next year it will be a hell no, never can be done no-go, even if you use a lot more electric than I use. Regulation has killed this idea of using solar in this part of the country deader than dead.

Anyone have a nice 6c kWh solar farm someplace I can sneak a few miners in, let me know. I still may only be breaking even at these prices and with the tariff but on hope and prayer for 2020 future of BTC/halving/prices...I might take that action. By my lonesome in Minnesota with above stuff going on...er not so much.

later

Brad

---

I sent them all a message. I will post on here what the actual real price is dividing your FULL KW and any monthly fees by the bill paid each month. And/or if they vary the bill each month vs their on spec electric costs on market. (Some data halls due such). We will see. But at 7.5c kWh, I'm assuming this is the same more or less game that I tried to find out last year. Which came out close to 10c kWh with shipping of units and setup costs per unit and the rest per monthly bill on a 6-month contract and/or 12-month contract complete. When you add it all up, it came to around 9.5c to 10c kWh. That is from those who actually would do the math for me legitimately. 1/2 just gave me the kWh and did not answer the rest of it in any manner I was satisfied with.

Hopefully, times have changed and I am surprised. Still, have the frigging 27.6% tariff with shipping to contend with on new equipment, that may kill this information I may get anyway. But I'm bored, so I sent them a quick note, to all of the above links you mention. We will see. (Did not bother with the 50 miner minimum one..that would be silly)

Brad

They have competition now, they have to keep plants open in some manner to fund their own data halls if customers being secondary to them keeping the

doors open and funding for their research and development. Kinda looks like when Spondoolies went under, not enough demand to keep up with all the above.

They are scrambling like the rest of us at these prices for BTC/Crypto that much is true indeed!

OK...thanks for the posts...back to me, however...

Where is this 6c kWh everyone speaks of in order to mine? Again, best rates I've found digging into it and getting fees etc and shipping etc etc (without a tariff equipment in hand) is 8c kWh. Any legit action overseas or someplace that really is 6c kWh when all the calculations are done? Or as I suspected before I started this thread a myth?

Thanks

Brad

(Likely not a myth, likely, not available to small fry like me...alas, big miners day has gone...in the ASIC old folks home)

As an aside. Why no one mines in the USA anymore (at least small miners and small data halls) IMHO. Even if the USA taiff went away, seems deader than dead.

Anyway, if interested I started a thread comparing current BTC Prices and Bitmain Products along with their claim of 5nm chips in spring and 3nm chips in development.

Damn, I miss being a big miner. The ASIC Addiction was strong with the force..back in the day.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5146892.msg51197799#msg51197799

Not a lie per se, but I'm pretty sure 5nm and 3nm will units will go to bitmain data halls first and be used to drive up difficulty 4-5 months, then product released to masses at inflated prices. Seems to be how they roll. As to the lie, if they really do figure 'slow growth' and you should get miners for the long haul said in the article (my interpretation) then the 3nm and 5nm stuff above (via past actions by bitmain on the release of ASIC's) really puts a 'pause' in my thinking that view was not there to move product. Even if they think it is true. Whatever, I'm so far out of mining NOW it is silly, even without the tariff/etc.

I have ONE S9i running that I will never ROI I 'dubiously' got this summer paid up at my buddies (Maxumark) Data Hall till Jan 1st, 2020.

Mostly, because I waste money like a drunken sailor since retirement and thus 'some' of my wasted money will AT LEAST show up as dubious overpriced mined BTC!

Besides, seeing the miner chug along each day is 'soothing' to my complete large scale ASCI hard withdrawal addiction! Ack!

But always remember, we are talking about Bitmain which for more than a year or two denied ASCI BOOST even existed. It is how they roll!

Brad

---

They can do such because 1) They determine where such units will go when 5nm comes out 2) The mass of now (IMHO) overpriced by at least 25% miners they push on the site. Also, the fact that they are NOT selling out due to BTC/Crypto prices. In other words, they have to keep the doors open for ASIC manufacturing and the lights on and their design team paid, etc. I've no doubt that is their plan for 5nm in Spring, but you are right could be just hype.

By the By, where can a guy get into this 6c kWh mining you talk about. The best I've seen with full fees etc is 8c kWh and that is usually overseas and thus killed by shipping and 'setup fees per unit'. I want in on that action if full 6c kWh with fees. The 10c kWh with fees was everything including shipping and setup.

Again, I've no idea wtf is going on with mining. I just know I'm on the sidelines buying BTC on Coinbase or whatever..misssing it.

later

Brad

Reserved

But on 10/13/19 the Bitmain site had a mess of stuff for pre-order or direct purchase.

Well, I think I know why Bitmain is dumping product now in mass. From the following link seems they are looking at 5nm in early 2020 and are working on 3nm chips as we speak. See this article: https://www.livebitcoinnews.com/bitmain-ceo-bullish-behavior-unlikely-following-may-2020-btc-halving/

We are utterly screwed as small miners unless the price rises significantly before these 5nm and 3nm chips are in play. Again, IMHO, why Bitmain is dumping ASIC's in mass.

I'll post 3 of the large units as examples of what they offer for prices and watts and what they would make in the USA at 10c kWh. WITHOUT the USA Tariff and Import Fees (27.6%) and shipping price from China. So I will do my calculations (again without tariff/import fees/shipping) at 10c kWh.

For these two pre-order units at least. As long as I did the calculations anyway, I'll post my links to calculators and results here.

Note: There are other units on the Bitmain site that I've not listed. Some I would have but Bitmain lists no watts for some of these units.

Also only did the below high-end units. The result is dismal enough, IMHO, no need to beat a dead horse and list all units. You'll get the idea.

I used the below link to determine hash/power/profit.

What to Mine Site. BTC Checked Box. Also, the price was taken from https://coinmarketcap.com/ for BTC.

https://whattomine.com/asic
    
-------------------
Antminer S17+ 73TH at 2920 watts and the price of $2,833.00 pre-order. Delivery December 1st-10th, 2019. PRE-ORDER.
-------------------

At the current BTC price of $8,430.00 at 10c kWh. You would make at flat difficulty (now) and price (today) of $5.00  per day profit. With an ROI of 566 days! Yech!

--------------------
Antminer T17+ 64TH at 3200 watts and the price of $1,802.00 pre-order. Delivery December 1st-10th, 2019. PRE-ORDER.
--------------------

At the current BTC price of $8,430.00 at 10c kWh. You would make at flat difficulty (now) and price (today) of $2.84 per day profit. With an ROI of 635 days! Yech!

----------------------
Antminer S17 Pro 50TH at (using middle watts at the low figure of the high scale) of 2250 watts. Price is $2,502. Delivery October 21st-31st, 2019. AVAILABLE NOW.
----------------------

At the current BTC price of $8,430.00 at 10c kWh. You would make at flat difficulty (now) and price (today) of $2.84 per day profit. With an ROI of 881 days! Yech!

Also as you can see from the above, this is very, very, unlikely for anyone in the USA, in particular, to get an ASIC miner at the USA average price of 10c kWh, even if NO tariff/import fees/shipping. This is also my electric rate, so hopefully, you can beat this by a considerable margin and laugh at my expense!

So anyway, IMHO, we have all seen this game before. Bitmain dumping equipment in mass just before Christmas. Takes pre-orders that are not shipped around Christmas and then because of Chinese New Year the stuff you pre-ordered that will supposedly arrive end of December 2019, will actually arrive middle of February 2010, due to all the holidays. At that point, they will be distributing newer units sometime in the spring, maybe, 5nm ASIC chip units to themselves driving up hash rate for 3-5 months before releasing to the public at inflated prices as seems to be their strategy.  After say, that dump end of Summer, they then have the 3nm stuff to put in play for equipment again at their data halls first. Thus the 'long-con' IMHO (see article) of buying miners now because it is going to mature slowly theme. Hey, trust us.

Indeed it is the usual scam of rinse/wash/repeat.

The ONLY way anyone could mine these days, under these conditions, again, IMHO, is IF you are mining like heck at a loss and to HODL for fun on the expectation of BTC doubling or some such after halving in 2020 or some other long term dream. But in reality, if you believe such, you'd be better off with an automatic bank withdrawal monthly buy off BTC to HODL on an exchange until that point happens someday as your bet, of BTC doubling in price.

Looks unlikely I'll be mining anything of any note until maybe 'used' equipment in 2021 at this rate.

Anyway, fun while it lasted.

later

Brad (Bitmain: Trust us, we do 'evil' right!)

This is the USA and the SEC. Let's see. $1.7 Billion dollars. (grabs calculator for his SEC guess on fine)

I bet they settle it for $210 million and then let it proceed. Hey, it is how we roll in the USA and the SEC.

Pay us some meagre fines and voila you are off the hook.

https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/01/sec-fines-block-one-24m-unregistered-ico-worth-billions/

See SEC fines Block.one above $24 million USD only. The fact is they made billions. It will be the same for Telegram token TON.

Rinse/Wash/Repeat. Money talks/bullshit walks. It is how the SEC rolls in the USA.

Brad

Just showing you how to get a good reputation and move stuff on Bitcointalk.org. If things were moving well from the Alibaba site with

Bitcointalk.org users, I'd figure, I'd have seen some positive or negative comments about Alibaba and how good their refund policy and such is.

I have heard nothing about Alibaba purchases of ASIC miners of any type or any manufacturer on Bitcointalk.org. So I can only assume it is

due to a lack of review of the product and your company and other issues. The only way over that hump is what I've previously posted that has

worked in the past. Good luck. But don't think you are gonna get any action just by stating Alibaba is ok and has a good refund policy.

Sorry, just how it is on Bitcointalk.org.

As I said, I ordered one thing in like 2014 or 2015 on Alibaba a USB or some such and was NOT refunded because it was bitcoin-related.

Times likely have changed it is 2019. But so it sits on Bitcointalk we here nothing about Alibaba on ordering or otherwise.

Badmouthing aside, let's say it is a wonderful site. If it was so well used on Bitcointalk.org we'd all have been

using it by now. Thus the delay/confusion/newbie account/no review/no reputation problem we've been talking about on this thread.

Again, previous posts, without some significant movement by you on your product in the manner I mentioned, fair or not, you are not

gonna be believed. Again, perhaps this is a USA problem with Alibaba site. If so, not a lot of movement on orders anyway. Gridlock.

Brad

Kinda doubt it would work. But will look into this with other items and test. But at this time have no desire to pay a 27.6% tariff on top of the

uncertainty of the product quality and other issues I've mentioned in previous posts.

Still, no review of equipment on Bitcointalk of your equipment....no group buy offers with protections...so I get it your pushing for sales via the Alibaba site.

Still, no push in the USA and other markets for a group buy and discounts. Again, if Alibaba was an option folk in the USA felt they could trust, well we would

not be complaining on Bitcointalk of a miner drought due to availability and prices. (We still would be bitching in the USA about the tariffs..but that is another issue)

Also, again, no reason not to have PayPal if you have bona fides with Alibaba payment setup.

Again, all about trust of getting the equipment you paid for...I have outlied strategies in the USA to overcome some of these difficulties.

Again, review, group buy, etc would be ONE TIME things to quickly move product and show you are legit (even likely with the 27.6% tariff)

I doubt you will get any significant volume outside of the far east with Alibaba payment setup alone, even if it does work correctly.

Anyway, you are not the only ASIC maker to discard Paypal, Pesky Independent Reviews of Equipment, or any legit ASIC group buys with escrow.

Likely, if you are legit and moving units this is small potatoes and not worth the effort like other ASIC makers. On the other hand, for breaking

into a new market and needing Cheerleaders for a product, the old ways I mention on how to gain market share using Bitcointalk as a method

would still work. But alas, seems to be too much trouble to send a unit to review (even if paid after receiving to show bona fides) and/or a group buy.

So I will just lump you in now with all ASIC makers that don't seem to really give a frack and are just making noise on Bitcointalk and expecting a

newbie account and even if legit a minimum effort to move some of their stuff on Alibaba and that is the extent of your outreach. Also of course,

without any reviews or group buys or any other considerations...this whole thread may yet be not legit. For example, sending unworkable or

different older ASIC's instead of the purchased product. Bad shipping and or packaging, thus the whole international go around with DHL or FedEx etc.

(Been there done that, it usually don't work out well at the user's end)...stuff like that. So no 'track record' not gonna get very many buys for

your efforts I'm afraid on this thread. Too much scar tissue and broken ASIC dreams of non-delivery/sudden bankruptcy/bad product quality control/

bad packaging/language difficulty/warranty issues/delay on shipping. Anyway, you get where I'm coming from. Again, ask others who have done

escrow on Bitcointalk and Group Buys on Bitcointalk and WHY they are no longer doing so. Damn hard to do escrow on multi-thousand dollar group

buys on the risk at the group buy organizer's end. Anyway, good luck on drumming up sales on the Alibaba site, but I'm afraid it is not going to amount

to anything, in these times and with Bitcointalk's past issues with the scammers we've seen in the past and past protections no longer in play it seems.

later

Brad

Sorry I was stiffed on that btc miner usb PI was not covered, virtual currency miner at alibaba. It was in like 2015 or so but still.

Also, others have ordered proucts from alibaba and not gotten the product but a clone or something else. Again 2016 or so. That may still be common.

Would be simple to simply do PayPal and this whole problem would go away in the USA. Paypal I can use a credit card with

Paypal purchase, my Amex card and get 45 days protection from PayPal and 60 days if I tell Amex about it before the 45 days on PayPal

expire in a dispute.

Remember Alpha Technologies on here even with PayPal scam'd a mess of folk with taking 1/3 down only to look legit with Paypal and deliberately waited

till 45 days -60 days passed..(with dispute and credit card help added) then went poof...thus they only got 1/3 with PayPal and ALL THE $$$

from folk who did NOT bother with a credit card under

Paypal and they lost it all..by going past 45 days without the credit card option under PayPal...the credit card people did (me) get $$$ back.

As an aside always use a credit card as a payment option on PayPal. You file a dispute under 45 days with PayPal you also get 15 days more under credit card protection as a result.

cheap insurance on PayPal for 'supposed' sketchy stuff..a 2nd layer of protection

anyway, if they can do Alibaba pay system and are legit...paypal will be happy to have them and they can adjust the USA fees accordingly

along with the 27.6% tariff on their site...if you can make a button for Alibaba payment and the 27.6% location tariff you can also

do full Paypal payment as well...assuming you believe in your product...I would suspect if they offered payment via PayPal the would

sell out within a day (as such I call dibbs on the 1st PayPal order for this idea). Indeed PayPal is a no brainer IMHO they should just do that.

again, you get where I'm coming from...if you the OP is representing a truly large scale ASIC maker .they have the $$ to risk sending an ASIC

unit first either free or to be paid later after review or shipped back if review sucks...they also as ASIC makers can certainly do PayPal

or at least a group buy with escrow AS A ONE TIME THING...once you have SHOWN you are legit via a legit review and escrow on

a group buy that work..here on Bitcointalk ...THERE IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE...but sorry as said above have to establish legitness first...and if you can

spring for a platter at the foundry for enough ASIC chips to make a crypto ASIC miner and production all the above I point out a unit for review

or group by via escrow is small change indeed

and virtually no risk vs reward

but again, PayPal you'd be selling stuff the day it went up and likely sell out. (again I call dibbs if PayPal...want a unit!)

...though you still might need a review of a miner to launch such with PayPal to get traction

anyway, I type as fast as I think thus long posts are not an issue (if you can take a stream of thought as it hits the page)

I don't like all this myself...but the way of the world now with the many scam's and non-delivery of stuff on bitcointalk these days...just the way it is

you jump through the hoops I've mentioned or you are likely fair or unfair to be hit with a scammer tag and forgotten about...harsh but true.

later

brad

Ok ..sure...look at my trust rating on here..contact me via pm on here...I can 1) review a unit you send...if pleased with I pay afterwards or send back at my expense... 2) I can

do a group buy if the above review works out 3) I can do escrow for a group buy or find a mutual one to do so with more than just me alone.....stuff like that...

again, buy a $30 buck copper membership..won't help much ..but hey its something

The catch is ALL such endeavours begin with TRUST as the manufacturer trying to break into a market full of Bitmain's and other big ASIC miners and yourself.

 etc...this route above could very well pan out, others have cut their teeth on such group buys and reviews on bitcointalk Spondoolies, Innsolicon (did escrow) etc

but not recently....recently most such offers are scammy as heck, at least since around 2016 or so IMHO...very dry indeed...group buys no more on bitcointalk

the makers of ASIC's never step up anymore with the above checks and balances for trust nor seem to care. Thus newbies coming out on here even if legit are very, very suspect.

So again the risk of shipping a free unit for review or other such it would have to be from the big guy as far as risk to the small guy. You don't like me for beating you up on here you can do

any or all of the above with others. Indeed there have been scam's on Bitcontalk where a unit WAS sent out and reviewed and (actually more than one) and a group buy was done

with no escrow and the company went under and/or it was a scam and poof BTC gone. Thus the steps kinda/sorta above.

Just saying, unless you get some pushback with some risk on your end, you may be honest as heck, but damn hard to swallow with a newbie account and Alibaba

sorry to say, from our perspective here in the states.

Whatever, ask around, I'm sure you will hear the same refrain above from many on here...too many scams..too few manufacturers' to actually step up to get out of such

shadows.

Anyway, this is a common enough 'bitch' here on bitcointalk. All the risk is at the bitcointalk user end and no risk of equipment for review anymore at the manufacturer's end

them days may be gone.

Anyway, that is the problem with all this, in a nutshell, even if you and the company you represent is very, very honest.

Brad

p.s. this is not helping your case any either

quote

II, We have the DDP shipment for the buyers, it means the buyer no need to deal with customs clearance.
           And no need to pay tax again. Only need to wait at house to receive the miners.
unquote

even if true...looks really, really sketchy as heck. And again, even if what you say as an angle is correct. If caught it again falls on the purchaser not the ASIC maker.

outright fraud from an ASIC maker is never likely to happen nor end well.

Anyway, conditions are not likely to be met anyway...just an aside...

Here is a pretty good FOMO music video. Christopher Walken dance mash-up of almost (if not all) of his movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=85&v=YI0xvZEnhX4

Of course also below his classic music video on youtube as well...Fatboy Slim...2010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ7z57qrZU8

hell, they all work...as FOMO Bitcoin Music

I should really get the moves down for the music video above not that I've retired and then just randomly go places and do it

Brad

Here is a link from the site www.bitcoin.tax on the IRS Guidelines 2019 update.

If anyone should know these guys should have a handle on this. This so far is the most

simple and quick explanation of the new Guidelines IRS 2019 I've found so far.

Below is the link:

https://bitcoin.tax/blog/irs-crypto-tax-faq/

Add other links first as you see fit. The above link seems to lay to rest some of the

more dire meanings flaying about on the Internet etc.

Please feel free to post your own links and or views here as well. This applies to the USA.

Thanks

Brad

So, basically, just ignore it? If the price goes up big time as a fork...I'd assume enough hell would be raised that a 'clarification' would be needed by the IRS. If not and it is piddly

no clarification will be needed and a big 'meh!". If the alternative is to keep my BTC Hoard HODL on Coinbase complete because exchanges are legit in that I don't control the keys,

Sh*t, I and most others will dump it all for cash first before putting up with that

and just take the $$$ via Coinbase or whatever. So for now, unless things change in the next week, I'm just gonna assume it is "unworkable" and/or if not that ANY fork of Bitcoin

will not go anywhere in price enough due to the above to matter. I wonder if the BTC foundation (Bitcoin Core) or others could simply 'ban' hard forks of any note  in some manner

and inform IRS that it is no longer legit and get exchanges to go along with such. I guess that could work maybe.

Whatever, ignoring for now.

Brad


On the other hand from what I can tell from this 'control' means I take the dropped coin and control the forked coins via a wallet. Thus I don't split the coin/wallet
no tax on the fork in that I have no control did not move such.

so gonna go with this idea for now

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/irs-issues-new-cryptocurrency-guidance

All newbie accounts are scammers unless they are doing escrow or do a review by philipma1957 or some other legit bitcointalk fork

I kinda doubt the china site would refund on crypto miners in that most of those kinda sites like eBay don't like pre-orders and/or crypto stuff

again, if he wants to be legit and is as big as he claims he needs to send someone a unit (free or pay after they get it) and do a review on here.

Otherwise, it is all smoke and mirrors. Again, this was NOT a problem back in 2014 manufacturer's sent out all sorts of stuff to review or set up group buys, etc

with the escrow and had legit non-newbie accounts to do so. So no reason it can't be done today with lower-priced miners and quicker shipping.

So if you are right and he is not a scammer...the firm he represents needs to step up their game on here and prove they are legit...or they will just fade

into the weeds outside of a china ASIC maker.

So I've done group buys (see trust rating and past deals) also I've done escrow (again see trust) others on here have done the same.

If the company is as big as they claim, this is a little risk and great reward for setting up a group buy/escrow and/or reviews. But again, a legit review is send a unit

to review with either pay after receive if the reviewer likes it or review sends it back without pay or of course you really want to make a statement you are legit

send it free to review. But money talks and bullshit walks...just saying ...I mean at least by a frigging copper account for like $40 or some such so you can post pictures

on here..and other stuff.

Sorry if I'm stepping on toes. But the last newbie account I saw that was legit doing this was spondoolies back in 2014. Since then nada.

Brad

If that is true. Every Whale will dump (in the USA) rather than take a chance for another hostile fork of bitcoin and owing $50k to such or something because he did not dump.

I mean that means NO one could afford to HODL BTC in your own wallet due to malicious actors. Indeed north korea or Iran could 'fork' your coin for just that purpose. chaos.