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781  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: 🥊 The UFC Info and Prediction Thread on: September 02, 2023, 05:22:24 PM
Yeah dunno...  Namajunas kinda looks frail for a fighter at 115.  I guess we'll just have to see how she looks when she faces off with Fiorot in a couple of hours.

She always looked frail, even as a strawweight  Grin Yey, she would often find a way to knock other girls out with that skinny arms.
The one factor I haven't consider is jet lag. No idea when has she arrived to Paris, but hopefully she had enough time to adapt. I've heard many fighters saying that's actually a bigger problem that anyone could think.
As much as I don't support female martial arts, I think that one would be much more interesting than Gane Vs Spivac.


Yup, the result of the match has title implications.  A win for Namajunas means she leap frogs everybody else for Fiorot's spot going to the title.  Judging from the ceremonial weigh ins, I think she's metally all there but physically, I dunno...  Her cheeks look round and chubby like she had more like a vacation instead of a training camp.  Cheesy  Rooting for her tho.  But Fiorot is good.  It's an interesting match up.

So yeah...  Good luck to all your bets you degens.

Last call to jeremypwr's Multi Master.

UFC Fight Night 226 - Multi Master Challenge
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5464854.0

Rose was huge in the 115 which she could really fight in FLW without a problem. It must be hard for her to maintain the SW and not able to regain that belt held by the currenct champ whom she defeated twice.

She is decently a technical fighter, she could win by just countering. but if she can bring the fight to the ground against Fiorot who is a striker, she might really finish it to her first in the division and stay there for good.

782  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Tyson Fury vs Francis Ngannou Boxing October 28 on: September 02, 2023, 03:52:16 PM
It will be struggle for Francis Ngannou because nobody did cracked Fury before and that is also one of the obvious reasons why most people don't believe that the MMA fighter can make a difference in this fight. Not this time. But I'm still looking forward to see a good fight between the two of them.

I'm inclined as well that this will be a good fight because Ngannou is not that unknown after all, even if he is not from the boxing industry. He can somehow make the fight worth it even though the upper hand is not with him and of course he knows that but still, he is still eager and confident enough that he can make a difference. You know, even the slightest hand still stand a chance.
Ngannou is training with one of the best boxers in the history of the sport, so he can shock the boxing world and spectators with a win over Fury. Even with all the experience Fury has got, it is not going to be an easy fight for him because Ngannou is also going for the win in this fight and even if he looses will not make the fight easy for Fury. Some few weeks to the fight, both fighters will be studying the moves and tactics of each other as well as training physically, and eating right for the fight. If you bet on Ngannou, you can make a lot of money if he wins.

That's quite a big word mate, to say that Ngannou can shock the boxing world along with its spectators by upsetting the Tyson Fury in a duel inside the boxing ring which is the latter's sport. I know that there is a chance even if it's just slim but it's still too soon for it to say specially after knowing that the odds aren't in favor with the MMA fighter.

Tyson Fury may or may not face some troubles in this fight because Ngannou isn't an ordinary fighter as well but I know that Fury already have his eyes on the prize and will not underestimate his opponent because his undefeated record is on the line while Ngannou here have nothing to lose as after all, this is still his boxing debut and won't probably matter anyway because he's an MMA fighter in the first place.

In HW boxing, Fury had beaten everyone in that division, which may be the reason why Ngannou was introduced and most likely after this fight win or lose Fury will face Usyk. It is also a win-win for Fury, he ducked Usyk while also making a cross-fight and making millions at the same time.

But Ngannou has a fighting chance and with Mike Tyson training him + a KO punch, his winning chance increases the fact that Fury had been knockout before he managed to get up though.

783  Other / Off-topic / Re: Keeping your gambling habit a secret. on: September 02, 2023, 03:26:24 PM
Lol, maybe you are married wrong woman (joking, there are no wrong or right wifes, there are only yours  Grin). I am married, have a kid. Perhaps my wife is simply different. I have never heard nagging about spending money on gambling, crypto. I am not the only one who brings money to family. In fact, when I told her I dream about buying a motorcycle, and finally bought it (thanks to crypto). I have never heard anything like “choose either your hobby, or family”, “motorcycles are dangerous”, “think about your kid, I dont want to become widow”. That is why I dont understand why I should keep something in secret. I would better be open, because the truth will come out anyway.

We have different wives. Once she tells this gambling habit to her friends or family, it's gonna be another world to defend.
It's normal to keep secrets, some call it boundaries to the worse they call it double life. But you'd be surprised what people are keeping from their family and sometimes they only discover it after they die like another family showing up at the funeral or their husband was actually gay and sleeping with different men.

For me keeping the gambling habit is not a crime. After all, I'm not spending thousands in a month on it.

784  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Cockfighting? on: September 01, 2023, 06:13:52 PM
~snip~
It is indeed quite complicated, but I am sure that slowly this problem will be resolved, as long as law enforcement officials are able to approach the community and conduct continuous direct hearings, because so far the government has established a law only carried out unilaterally without any agreement between the government and the community.
If law enforcement officers carry out their duties well, including providing understanding to the public, they can reduce their time playing cockfighting. They will also be more active in finding work than using cockfights to get money. However, the government only makes laws that the public may not yet understand, so there are still misunderstandings between them. Perhaps the approach by the government is still not enough because there are still places to bet on cockfights for them while law enforcement officials don't know about it.
I think the government can regulate it if they want to prevent it. But what you said is that they don't take proper action in this matter which is why this type of game is still being conducted in many places. After any law is passed, the public must be well informed about why the law was made. There is no problem in people gambling but if they take part in illegal gambling then there must be penal action. And if the law enforcement agencies do their duty properly then this kind of gambling will not be seen again.
In the modern world, everyone understands that cockfighting is a cruel entertainment and the governments of many countries should of course prohibit such entertainment.  

However, in those countries where cockfighting is their national tradition, such a ban is extremely difficult to introduce.  Any politician or popularly elected member of the Legislative Assembly of the country who proposes to legally establish bans on traditional folk entertainment always runs the risk of losing the support of the local population in the elections.  That is why many such politicians seem to constantly say that this is bad entertainment, but in reality they do nothing and just engage in demagogy.  None of them wants to lose the support of voters.  
That's why, as I think, it is so difficult to deal with real bans and cockfights in several countries of the world.

Someone replied here about politicians owning a farm of roosters for fighting. Cockfighting was already rooted in the country long before it even gained independence from its colonizers, I bet they have cock festivals to celebrate, don't they? Traditions like this will not die and after all, chickens are easy to breed, there is no scarcity of chicken. It's not an endangered species.

In the US, there are also people involved as they said it's in the rural areas where the hood never mind the roosters wakes them up in the morning.
Check this DEA raids Phoenix home and finds cockfighting ring with more than 100 roosters. The anchor says its a blood sport  Grin  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MSPUEoKXA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWxkL9tOj5k
785  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Countries where Bitcoin is “banned” on: September 01, 2023, 05:33:30 PM
I think there needs to be some clarification and updates to be made on OP article if this will truly be relevant as expected because some data and statistics were drawn from past years experience on how the government approach the use of bitcoin, mining and the entire cryptocurrency itself, on the same vein, it is better to put it that in most of the countries listed, bitcoin is legal to be used by the people but not as legal tender, which means it's not against the law to use bitcoin but the government doen not support it commercial banks in using it, in these countries, we cannot say that bitcoin is banned, banks are only banned from using it, while only few had banned bitcoin and crypto, countries like india, Ghana Mexico are still soft about bitcoin, Mexico is only regulating mining environmental impact, but they are quite aware people are using bitcoin for transactions.

The article was from a year ago. A year ago also I saw a list of countries banning BTC which only have less than 10 on it. The locals must know more than what we learn on the Internet.

But even so, BTC wasn't banned in many of these countries afaik, as there were just restrictions. I'm sure there will be a lot of changes soon when countries realize that institutions in the US are taking crypto as a digital investment asset. Even China which has the greater influence in crypto in 2017, knows how BTC/crypto plays a role in the future.
786  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Socialtournaments-A way to stop gambling addiction on: September 01, 2023, 04:51:14 PM
I don't know if many of you knows SocialTournaments where they hold free tournaments with different types,maximum multiplier,total points score and other related slot machines tournament,they are managed by Pragmatic Play provider and it is a way to invite people to gambling but I see it as an alternative to people who are addicted,they can stop the addiction as they offer enough daily,weekly and monthly tournaments to keep you entertained without you spending any money and if you are in luck and get the biggest multiplier or biggest score you even win real money to your account which you can withdraw to your crypto wallets.

I am in no way affiliated with them and you need big KYC,Proof of Address,National ID and Proof of Wallet to get your money.Do you think this platform can help people remove addiction,I think it can be a big boost to do so.
Chances of winning ain't that high. Also, avoiding addiction depends to the gambler himself. This is a good thing no doubt but would it work 24/7? 'coz gambling provider won't be earning that much to sustain this "program"if that's the case, and if not then that should already be an answer to the question. However, as I've said, it depends on the gambler whether to get invokved that much to gambling activities or not. As long as such drive to win and be rich in an instant or to get back with losses, are there then we cannot expect less. But mentioned activies will indeed lessen the the tendency of players to engage with betting problem is it won't be open always for players who would want to play and win, also prone to abuse.


It can also be interpreted in a different way.
Players get entertained without having to spend any more and yet they get to win real money seems too good to be true. How can it help gambling addiction when the gambler still plays like betting something? It's even inviting newcomers to gambling because it's a sort of training for them to play betting. We all have different views of course since this looks like a casino still.
787  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Behaviours of gamblers you dislike. on: September 01, 2023, 05:24:54 AM
Not giving tips when they win? Lol.

I know you're joking with this, but some people actually hates someone who win and not giving them any tip. Well, I am the one who hates and gets annoyed to the people who's waiting for someone to win to beg for a tip. I knew a lot of people who's like this in a physical casino. When they're drained they just don't go straight to their homes to rest, instead they will come and gather around you and try to give you some advices while you are trying to place a bet so when you eventually win, they'll going to ask for a tip then until they can pool enough money to play another for round.
I don't know if people like these exist in other countries, but this seriously annoys me. Having an online casino where we can play at the comfort of our home is an advantage to avoid this kind of people lol.

Ya when you cheer for him in a dice wheel and he wins, you expect a tip from them, right?  Grin
In the movies set in the 70s where people wear a fedora, they always tip anyone in the casino even the ones who bring them their drinks. People who give tips somehow are prioritized by the servers. This is not happening anymore, that was in the 70s. This time the only one who gets a tip in the casino worthy of it I think is the dealer. But he also gets the blame when the gambler loses.  
788  Other / Off-topic / Re: Keeping your gambling habit a secret. on: September 01, 2023, 02:53:43 AM
On one hand it is correct to keep gambling passion in secret, but in the other we keep gambling in secret, cryptocurrency in secret, salary in secret - everything is in secret. Is it normal? I think it is not. Other opinion, why should I keep something in secret, specially how can you keep habit in secret, if I am a grown up adult. Imho I dont. I dont have to care much about other opinion, I must make my own decision and have own opinion.

Some of them wouldn't mind if their secret was revealed. They can reason out afterward. Somehow they avoided defending the habit as there was nothing to defend yet. Thus preventing having something to argue with a wife or an envious in-law.

Let's say they just found out you gambled some of your money every month. From now on they may just talk to you about it and instead of having the freedom to browse and be alone on your laptop, your wife may just be watching over your shoulder. Worse your in-laws are also there watching you. Revealing to your biological brother, I think it's fine but some may find it not fine.

Still dont understand why I should keep gambling in secret if I gamble with my own money. I should not be shy of it or feel uncomfortable. That is just stupid. I dont keep in secret if I buy beer, bread or something, but I must hide that I spend money on gambling. If a person hides that he gambles from his family, then there is something fishy with his funds, or something wrong with his mind.

I can only assume you're not married yet?
Maybe I married the wrong woman, realization only happens when it's over but we're family and gotta stick together. I don't wanna hear her nagging every morning or my kid hearing about it because I also don't want him getting serious about the cards we play at home.

Experience teaches us lessons and learned it the hard way when she nags all day so keeping her calm helps her and me and my kid. If it had happened before, its best to keep things secret from her.  Grin
789  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Has your Responsible Gambling had any of these Effects on You? on: September 01, 2023, 02:21:09 AM
This is not a case of being addicted to gambling. There are people who are actually in control of their gambling habits or addiction. For instance, they do not gamble beyond their budget; they commit an hour or two to gambling per week or twice per week and strictly adhere to it, among all other things. We have heard and read stories here and out there about how gambling ruins lives, careers, relationships, throws people into debt and more. But my question is, could this be happening to everybody? Has your responsible gambling habit had any positive effects on your relationships with your spouse, kids, parents, and others? Has it improved your finances and helped you stay out of debt? Has it improved your mental health and well being in anyway? Has it been able to help you meet an urgent need? Let's discuss.

Certainly!

The first big change is financial control, nobody doubts that. Those who know how to control their impulses and place bets responsibly will not compromise their financial budget with this type of entertainment. That alone should be reason enough to motivate others to gamble responsibly.

However, more than that, playing responsibly also allows the gambler to have a healthy lifestyle, knowing that in addition to gambling in front of a computer, he can enjoy his wife/husband/children, go out with friends, taking a walk in the park, etc... having a social life is also very important and unfortunately people addicted to gambling often do not have that.

Finally... mental health. Those who don't worry about debts and manage to entertain themselves with other things, live less stressed, acquire fewer diseases and live longer.

Unfortunately, this doesn't happen to everybody. A gambler consumed by their addiction plunges down affecting their family on the wild ride. Those who have recovered from the addiction or those who had seen it coming realized where their habit leads to, I think has more chance of having a positive effect on them and on their family.

I have seen some people giving testimonies on TED talks about these people which in the end life gets better for them.
790  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF Approval Odds Rise to 75% (Bloomberg) on: September 01, 2023, 01:48:26 AM

Somehow it feels disappointing to read that Spot ETF could be approved by the end of 2024, it's not even sure.
Excitement gone which traders must have realized is a short-lived bull. If news like this goes out after halving, it would have been one that will make spikes particularly Elon's X getting a crypto license. But the market is getting harsher, it almost gives hope to the new investors but now that it has dipped again, they will leave the market for good after losing some funds.
791  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: 🥊 The UFC Info and Prediction Thread on: August 31, 2023, 05:52:22 PM

Namajunas replay...  Anybody think she'll win vs Fiorot?  It's at 125.

Yup. If she's mentally in the right place on Saturday, she's my favourite.

She's a Thug. She had lived up to his nick many times. We'll find out if she can submit Fiorot. She isn't the favorite by the way so there is something we may have missed here, either her year of inactivity or she had an injury that's why she rested that long.

Meanwhile, Fiorot has an impressive record of 10-1. It tells a lot about her. I'm not a fan of either but Namajunas is famous for winning fights even when she's the underdog. Take for example her fight with Weili who she defeated twice.
792  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Has your Responsible Gambling had any of these Effects on You? on: August 31, 2023, 05:39:12 PM
Sports will always be a family affair. This strengthens the family ties especially if you have a boy who is a fan of a particular sport like soccer. If you are a sports bettor I guess you can gamble while you can also support your kid. It helps your relationships for sure.

Being a gambler who only engages in sports is somewhat of a kind of gambling responsibly. You have the discipline to only bet on the sports you know and you only do it when there are games.
793  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Accessible Programs for Aspiring Crypto Influencers. on: August 31, 2023, 05:30:41 PM

You gotta know what you are gonna be talking about which requires knowledge of crypto, blockchain, and the news around crypto, especially the regulations and adoptions.
The one that I noticed about those influencers was that they invite people of their kind from the community.

Invite a crypto influencer to your podcast or maybe invite someone from this forum, I think this will be interesting. Although they may wanna remain anonymous, you can ask them to wear something to be unrecognizable.

794  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: [Boxing] Casimero vs Oguni - October 12 on: August 31, 2023, 05:23:44 PM
It is very interesting how far Inoue will get though, he mentioned something like 130 lbs, so not sure if he can go up at 135 lbs as he might lose every advantage he had, like speed and power and timing.

Maybe there is some incentives for him to stay and fight guys like Nery, Casimero and clean up the division. But the problem is that if you have all the belts in one division, each and every governing body will have to fight their mandatories and it's going to be hard for that. So once he unify, it's either he has to follow the mandatory of at least one of the belts he hold, or drop some of it and just retain what he wanted. Just like the approach of 140 lbs unified champion in Josh Taylor.

His promoter, Bob, believes that Inoue is better than Pacquiao. Therefore, they might be considering breaking Pacman's achievements to reinforce their claim. I have no doubts about Inoue's ascent, but ideally, before that happens, he should have the opportunity to face Casimero in a championship fight, with Casimero as the challenger.

I think Bob Arum only said that because he wanted to hype Inoue but the truth is Inoue could not break Pacman's record of the being the only boxer to achieve that fate, 8-division world champion. Inoue is just a 3-division world champion and so many big names just one or two division up of the super bantamweight division which i think are hard to defeat.

Inoue is one of Bob's cash cow at the moment so he will say whatever good things he could say when the press are around.

I just hope that Bob would let his ward fight Casimero very soon.

Bob had been building up Inoue for a long time, he had to go and fight outside Japan this time. One way of doing this is to move up to the usual weight of the Westerners. This will also give him money when fights are in the US. Since he had defeated Fulton, it should not also be surprising that he can carry on defeating others in that division but most likely the goal is not just to make money but also belts.

I'm not sure if Pacman had unified a lot of belts but Inoue made it to that level as well.
795  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [JUST IN] Grayscale wins lawsuit against the SEC on: August 31, 2023, 03:41:50 PM
I don't get it: on the one hand, Bitcoin users are very much into "not your keys, not your coins". But on the other hand, "we" all want an ETF to pump the price. Which one is it? Encourage people to pay someone else to (promise to) hold Bitcoins for them, or encourage people to hold their own Bitcoins?


Why not both? Why do we have to stick in one no matter what? Sure, encouraging people holding their own bitcoin is good, but apparently, the regulatory oversight and the convenience an ETF provide outweighs the benefit of doing self-custody for institutional investors.

Let's accept it already. Regulations aren't in favor of the Bitcoin spirit. If we truly like the concept of a decentralized, denationalized, free enterprise money, then accepting the governmental compromises is inevitable. Achieving the desired outcome, which is more or less to make Bitcoin official, involves sacrifices. Otherwise we will continuously remain the unofficial, non-systemic currency.


I would be lying to myself if I would say that I'm not excited that BlackRock wants to be involved in Bitcoin and use it as an investment vehicle. BUT at the same time, we truly can't deny the FACT that custodial entities, if large enough, could be very dangerous for the future of the network.

It's going that way whether we like it or not. Institutions and regulatory bodies are up to controlling the crypto market worse than 51 attack but because it's a free market, they can buy all BTC if they really want to. In just a decade they realized they couldn't beat BTC so they joined. It's going to make the prices go to Mars but there is a catch.

There is a huge chance that GBTC will be converted into Spot ETF as they say. We'll just have to wait for SEC's decision, I think 40 days?
796  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: 🥊 The UFC Info and Prediction Thread on: August 31, 2023, 03:23:53 PM
Even Dana White has said he has, “no clue” if Conor McGregor is going to be able to fight in December or not. He confirmed that the UFC has no plans for him to fight at this time and no knowledge if he’ll be able to fight or not. I guess the rumor is going around because of an AI generated advertisement and has no basis in reality.

^ Well, I definitely know that if Connor McGregor was actually going to fight in December, the UFC was definitely going to do a great deal of marketing about that. We all know how Dana White absolutely loves Conor McGregor. So if he was actually fighting, the UFC was definitely going to talk a lot about it. And at the same time, I think we should understand that these are just people who want to see Conor McGregor fight again. They are the ones making these types of videos or spreading these news. And sometimes it is also the newspapers who want to increase the traffic on their pages.


You think Dana will ignore USADA and go on to allow Connor to fight? Maybe it will depend on how much his opponent will ask for his cut. I think it was Chandler who said he wouldn't fight Connor because he is a junkie. I couldn't be sure. But that word came out to the public.

If the money is right and Dana getting more than what he pays for, he might just strike a deal for getting Connor into USADA in just a short period of time. Money can do a lot of things.
797  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Tyson Fury vs Francis Ngannou Boxing October 28 on: August 31, 2023, 03:45:56 AM
I like it when the media dubbed as the "The Mount Rushmore of upsets". That is, if Ngannou wins this fight specially by a one punch knockout. Yeah, I do agree that Francis could hit harder than Fury or even Wilder, so we will see if Fury jaw can hold up as he was knock down by Wilder in their first fight but was able to get back from the canvass.

But as Francis says, “Everybody is beatable,”  Smiley

Between the 2, Ngannou has the bigger and more solid build. Even if his punches are blocked, Fury will feel it on his arms. The only worry for Ngannou is the counter from Fury which can be damaging since usually catches the fighter unprepared. And if it did hurt Ngannou, it's over. There are just 2 options here, either Ngannou down on the ground or Fury lying down there.

2 more months for this fight. If it's worth it, I'd be rooting for Ngannou by KO. Nothing is more exciting than seeing an underdog winning the biggest fight of his career.
798  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: [Boxing] Casimero vs Oguni - October 12 on: August 31, 2023, 03:27:44 AM
Casimero is getting old. He's about to face the beginning of the end of his career and yet he's still facing no-names. He's been calling out quality fighters but gets the scraps. Whether deserving or not, this must largely be due to the opportunity he negligently lost. And now he's provided with another opponent who can't offer much. Oguni is an old and inactive boxer who doesn't have a professional boxing resume he can boast of. Casimero should win in a powerful way.


Casimero fighting against an unknown fighter who he knows is no match is just somewhat of a fixed fight for him to be tuned up. He needs to move up because by the time Inoue unifies the belt in the SBW, he'd be gone up to 126.

Casimero is getting old and got no belt that will make Inoue interested in fighting for. If he is still interested in fighting the baddest monster, he'd have to be 126lbs with the belt from WBA and IBF for him to get a shot with Inoue.

Inoue didn't mention that he would move up weight classes once he unifies the belt. In fact, his team has stated that he will have more fights before considering a move up. This situation could potentially open up an opportunity for Casimero to face him. While Casimero might be advancing in age, I believe Inoue's camp should consider giving him a chance to fight. This could help put an end to Casimero's continuous taunts towards their champion, referring to him as "Turtle."

There is no incentive for Inoue to stay on 122 when all he wants right now is the legacy to get belts as much as possible. He wouldn't wait for someone to fight him unless its a mandatory. Having lots of belts hanging on him after retiring is the next goal for him since he is getting old. Nery might just be the last in that division and then he'll move up until he reaches 135 or maybe super lightweight.
799  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: Layer 1 Projects speculation on: August 30, 2023, 05:09:03 PM

Arbitrum is quite known so it's surprising he didn't mention it. Among them however, they could turn out scam one day. Too many L1 projects in crypto, it would be a wonder if the ones he mentioned are going to have success in the chosen path. A few years ago, there were also L1 claiming to be ETH killers, now they can't be found in the top 20 in the CMC.

If there is one L1 project that you even trusted among those lists, you better have at least 10 billion tokens of it. Sell them whenever the price touches $0.01. You may not find that token bounce again so enjoy the profit.


800  Other / Off-topic / Re: Keeping your gambling habit a secret. on: August 30, 2023, 05:01:11 PM
On one hand it is correct to keep gambling passion in secret, but in the other we keep gambling in secret, cryptocurrency in secret, salary in secret - everything is in secret. Is it normal? I think it is not. Other opinion, why should I keep something in secret, specially how can you keep habit in secret, if I am a grown up adult. Imho I dont. I dont have to care much about other opinion, I must make my own decision and have own opinion.

Some of them wouldn't mind if their secret was revealed. They can reason out afterward. Somehow they avoided defending the habit as there was nothing to defend yet. Thus preventing having something to argue with a wife or an envious in-law.

Let's say they just found out you gambled some of your money every month. From now on they may just talk to you about it and instead of having the freedom to browse and be alone on your laptop, your wife may just be watching over your shoulder. Worse your in-laws are also there watching you. Revealing to your biological brother, I think it's fine but some may find it not fine.
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