Health and Religion

[Astargath]

And yet the bible also says ''For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.'' Quite a contradictory book, it says to not kill but then it says to kill, heh.

Besides, the sense of the Bible has way outlasted your foolishness. Even the foolish religion of Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim will way outlast yours.

So you agree that we should be murdering anyone who works on the sabbath, right?

So you agree that you are ignorant or a troll or both.

So, you don't agree? You are making contradictory statements, do you think we should be putting people to death if they work on the sabbath, yes or no?

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[BADecker]

And yet the bible also says ''For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.'' Quite a contradictory book, it says to not kill but then it says to kill, heh.

Besides, the sense of the Bible has way outlasted your foolishness. Even the foolish religion of Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim will way outlast yours.

So you agree that we should be murdering anyone who works on the sabbath, right?

So you agree that you are ignorant or a troll or both.

So, you don't agree? You are making contradictory statements, do you think we should be putting people to death if they work on the sabbath, yes or no?

It isn't relevant to this topic, right?   

[Astargath]

So you agree that we should be murdering anyone who works on the sabbath, right?

If your goal is to honestly analyze to then you have to consider the context.

You cited (Numbers 15:32-36) where a man is put to death for working on the sabbath.

From the Biblical timeline we can conclude that this man was likely among the originals who followed Moses out of Egypt. He was thus not only a direct witness to several miracles he heard the voice of God directly at Mt. Sinai.

The problem was that this man was deliberately and flagrantly working in the open on the Sabbath day when God had directly manifested himself and commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath. This was a direct challenge to God's authority.

Apparently, this was the first public offense against the newly revealed law of God. It was, essentially, being tested. Therefore, the severity of the punishment was to demonstrate to all of Israel the necessity of obeying the Law of God.

To further add further context from a Christian tradition we have to consider the following.

Matthew 12:11-12
He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Mark 2:27-28  
And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

Combining all of these threads what is the overall message. I think it is a warning. The simple factual based observation that if we fail to strengthen, maintain, and transmit our faith and culture roots things will go very badly for us..

How much of our time must be dedicated to ensure we succeed in sustaining ourselves and our foundations? Perhaps one seventh especially with regards to the most difficult portion of our duties successfully passing respect for God to the next generation..

I really have a hard time understanding how religious people cope with themselves with this kind of stuff. You seem to be perfectly ok with god, a dictator, making rules that if you don't obey, you get killed for. How is that an all loving god? Why would you agree with that, why do you think that's a good idea at all? So a guy picking up sticks should be put to death because god said you shouldn't work on the sabbath and you think thats fair because ey, god said you shouldn't? Where is your free will then? Not fucking free will if you get killed for it, is it? Plus what the fuck is that law anyways that you shouldn't work in a specific day and how fucking horrible is it, to work on a specific day that you should die for it. You think if Trump or any other president would make a law like that today, anyone would agree? Honestly you people are fucked in the head.

[Astargath]

And yet the bible also says ''For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.'' Quite a contradictory book, it says to not kill but then it says to kill, heh.

Besides, the sense of the Bible has way outlasted your foolishness. Even the foolish religion of Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim will way outlast yours.

So you agree that we should be murdering anyone who works on the sabbath, right?

So you agree that you are ignorant or a troll or both.

So, you don't agree? You are making contradictory statements, do you think we should be putting people to death if they work on the sabbath, yes or no?

It isn't relevant to this topic, right?   

Dishonest liar, can't even answer a simple question.

[BADecker]

And yet the bible also says ''For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.'' Quite a contradictory book, it says to not kill but then it says to kill, heh.

Besides, the sense of the Bible has way outlasted your foolishness. Even the foolish religion of Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim will way outlast yours.

So you agree that we should be murdering anyone who works on the sabbath, right?

So you agree that you are ignorant or a troll or both.

So, you don't agree? You are making contradictory statements, do you think we should be putting people to death if they work on the sabbath, yes or no?

It isn't relevant to this topic, right?   

Dishonest liar, can't even answer a simple question.

Aw. Does it hurt so bad when your trolling is thwarted?     

[CoinCube]

I really have a hard time understanding how religious people cope with themselves with this kind of stuff. You seem to be perfectly ok with god, a dictator, making rules that if you don't obey, you get killed for. How is that an all loving god? Why would you agree with that, why do you think that's a good idea at all? So a guy picking up sticks should be put to death because god said you shouldn't work on the sabbath and you think thats fair because ey, god said you shouldn't? Where is your free will then? Not fucking free will if you get killed for it, is it? Plus what the fuck is that law anyways that you shouldn't work in a specific day and how fucking horrible is it, to work on a specific day that you should die for it. You think if Trump or any other president would make a law like that today, anyone would agree? Honestly you people are fucked in the head.

The reason you feel this way is because you regard this particular commandment as trivial and regard God as myth. Thus your imagination is filled with visions of inquisitions and persecuted innocents.

There is no religions group I am aware of even extremist sects that advocate a death penalty for working on the sabbath.
Your fear of being forced at gun point to relax one day a week seems far fetched to the point of ridiculousness.

You also fail to appreciate that without God you are basically operating under nihilistic assumptions and under nihilism any system of rules a society chooses to implement and enforce is by definition arbitrary and meaningless. You can operate by might makes right, let the judges make the rules, or let a majority vote rule all are equally arbitrary and meaningless under nihilism.

What is interesting about the Sabbath is the high degree of importance that is attached to it in the Bible. As other commandment like don't murder are obvious in their necessity one cannot help but wonder why the Sabbath is so critical that it is essentially elevated to near same level of importance as avoiding murder.

[CoinCube]

Maybe this is what happens to a society that neglects and abandons the Sabbath?


Europe's Civilizational Exhaustion
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-11/europes-civilizational-exhaustion

Islam is filling the cultural vacuum of a society with no children and which believes -- wrongly -- it has no enemies.

In Sweden, by 2050, almost one in three people will be Muslim.

The European mainstream mindset now seems to believe that "evil" comes only from our own sins: racism, sexism, elitism, xenophobia, homophobia, the guilt of the heterosexual white Western male -- and never from non-European cultures. Europe now postulates an infinite idealization of the "other", above all the migrant.

A tiredness seems to be why these countries do not take meaningful measures to defeat jihadism, such as closing Salafist mosques or expelling radical imams.

Muslim extremists understand this advantage: so long as they avoid another enormous massacre like 9/11, they will be able to continue taking away human lives and undermining the West without awakening it from its inertia.

In a prophetic conference held in Vienna on May 7, 1935, the philosopher Edmund Husserl said, "The greatest danger to Europe is tiredness". Eighty years later, the same fatigue and passivity still dominate Western European societies.

It is the sort of exhaustion that we see in Europeans' falling birth rates, the mushrooming public debt, chaos in the streets, and Europe's refusal to invest resources in its security and military might. Last month, in a Paris suburb, the Basilica of Saint Denis, where France's Christian kings are buried, was occupied by 80 migrants and pro-illegal-immigration activists. The police had to intervene to free the site.

Stephen Bullivant, a professor of theology and the sociology of religion at St Mary's University in London, recently published a report, "Europe's Young Adults and Religion":

"Christianity as a default, as a norm, is gone, and probably gone for good – or at least for the next 100 years," Bullivant said.

According to Bullivant, many young Europeans "will have been baptised and then never darken the door of a church again. Cultural religious identities just aren't being passed on from parents to children. It just washes straight off them... "And we know the Muslim birthrate is higher than the general population, and they have much higher [religious] retention rates."

Richard Dawkins, an atheist and the author of The God Delusion, responded to the study's release by tweeting to his millions of Twitter followers:

Before we rejoice at the death throes of the relatively benign Christian religion, let's not forget Hilaire Belloc's menacing rhyme:
"Always keep a-hold of nurse
For fear of finding something worse."


Dawkins is apparently concerned that that after the demise of Christianity in Europe, there will not be an atheistic utopia, but a rising Islam.

That is the major point of what Philippe Bénéton in his book The Moral Disorder of the West ("Le dérèglement moral de l'Occident"): Islam is filling the cultural vacuum of a society with no children and which believes -- wrongly -- it has no enemies.

According to Radio Sweden, fewer newborns in that country are being baptized due to the demographic shift. By 2050, almost one in three people in Sweden will be Muslim, according to a recent Pew report

The European mainstream mindset now seems to believe that "evil" comes only from our own sins: racism, sexism, elitism, xenophobia, homophobia, the guilt of the heterosexual white Western male --and never from non-European cultures. So Europe now postulates an infinite idealization of the "other", above all the migrant. The heritage and legacy of Western civilization gets sectioned off piece by piece so that nothing remains; our values are mocked and our survival instinct is inhibited. It is a process of decomposition that Europe's political authorities seem to have decided to mediate, as if it were inevitable. Now, the European Union waits to receive the next surge of migrants, from Africa.

In German Chancellor Angela Merkel's major speech in the Bundestag after the unprecedentedly long and difficult process of forming a new government, she struck a conciliatory tone on immigration while offering an inclusive message on Islam. "With 4.5 million Muslims living with us, their religion, Islam, has also become a part of Germany", she said.

The most powerful politician in Europe capitulated: she evidently forgot (again) the difference between the civil rights of individuals, which Muslim citizens enjoy in Germany, and the sources of a national identity, on which Europe is based: humanistic, Judeo-Christian values. This realization may why a week earlier the new German Interior minister, Horst Seehofer, said that "Germany has been shaped by Christianity" and not by Islam.

Europe's tiredness can also be seen in a generational conflict embodied in the alarming rise of public debt. In Italy, the political establishment was recently shaken up by the election of two major populist parties. It is a country with a public debt of 40,000 euros per capita, and a tax burden equal to 43.3% of GDP. The average age of the population is the third oldest in the world, together with one of the lowest birthrates on the planet, one of the lowest retirement ages in Europe and the highest social security spending-to-GDP ratio in the Western world. It is also a country where pensions account for one-third of all public spending and where the percentage of pensioners in proportion to workers will rise from 37% today to 65% in 2040 (from three workers who support one pensioner to three workers who support two pensioners).

An Islamist challenge to this tired and decaying society could be a decisive one. Only Europe's Christian population is barren and aging. The Muslim population is fertile and young. "In most European countries—including England, Germany, Italy and Russia, Christian deaths outnumbered Christian births from 2010 to 2015," writes the Wall Street Journal.

Terrorist attacks will continue in Europe.Recently, in Trèbes, southern France, a jihadist took hostages in a supermarket and claimed allegiance to ISIS. It seems that Europe's societies consider themselves so strong and their ability to absorb mass immigration so extensive, that nothing will prevent them from believing they can assimilate and manage terrorist acts as they have automobile fatalities or natural disasters. A tiredness also seems to be why these countries do not take meaningful measures to defeat jihadism, such as closing Salafist mosques or expelling radical imams.

Muslim extremists understand this advantage: so long as they avoid another enormous massacre like 9/11, they will be able to continue murdering people and undermining the West without awakening it from its inertia. The most likely scenario is that everything will continue: the internal fracture of Europe, two parallel societies and the debasement of Western culture. Piece by piece, European society seems to be coming irreparably apart.

[brodekola]

Many people use the terms “religious” and “spiritual” interchangeably, but studies show that they affect our wellness in markedly different ways. There is a difference between managing your outward behavior and managing your inward emotions, and both affect your soul.

Interestingly, the whole country seems to be following a health regimen of some sort—gluten-free, low carb, high protein, vegan, or sugar elimination. In our endless march toward physical fitness, we try exercise, supplements, vitamin shakes, and nutritionist-endorsed meal plans. Plenty of diets admonish us not to eat certain foods, but what kind of diet are we feeding our souls?

I was raised as a Methodist minister’s daughter and later attended various churches: Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopal… I attended vacation Bible school, made crayon drawings of crosses and doves, memorized Bible verses, and went on church retreats twice a year. Still, I wasn’t sure what I believed, deep down.

By the time I got to college, I defined myself as a seeker. I went to youth fellowship meetings, read about Buddhism, took a World Religion course, and even thought seriously about joining the Baha’i faith. Nothing fit, but I remember knowing that the search was important. I was 19, and I said out loud, “If God exists, then learning more about God is the most meaningful thing I’ll ever do.”

My search turned up all kinds of answers, some of which were in direct conflict with each other or with what felt true to me. I decided to keep searching, while adhering to the Golden Rule of treating others the way I would want to be treated. Now, in my mid-40s, my conscience still feels pierced when I fail to treat others with kindness. I also make time for active meditation, the only kind I can stand: I give my mind time to slow down, making room for contemplation and silence while doing something physical like walking, folding laundry, or emptying the dishwasher.

I found that the Golden Rule structured my behavior in the world, while active meditation offered space for my mind to enrich itself through introspection, self-examination, and appreciation. For me, that combination worked, and it felt right.

Recently, I began to understand more clearly why that combination worked. It tackles soul health from two important angles: behavior and emotions.

New research from Oregon State University explores the impact of religion and spirituality on human health.

The study puts forth a new theoretical model: Religion provides a set of rules and beliefs guiding behavior, while spirituality offers methods for managing emotions internally and regulating the experience and expression of those emotions.

Religion helps followers engage in healthier lifestyle practices on a daily basis. Religious people tend to drink less alcohol, smoke less, and have healthier habits overall. Spirituality helps followers examine their feelings and mindfully witness their own fleeting emotions. Ultimately it helps us have a calmer outlook, lower blood pressure, and a more even-handed approach to dealing with life’s stresses.

Those who combine routine religious practice with a committed spiritual practice are more likely to achieve both healthy outward behavior and healthy inward experience.

My mom credits religious writer Dennis Bennett with offering her a way to think about how her spiritual life has been strengthened by religious practice. She told me, “I have been an Episcopalian for over 20 years, after being reared Methodist, finding faith and joy in the Pentecostal Holiness Churches, and finally settling in a charismatic Episcopal Church. I love liturgy because it provides the banks of the river through which the Holy Spirit flows.”

My mom gets it, and now so do researchers: Religion and spirituality offer differing and complementary avenues toward health, which can be achieved through structured behavior and emotional regulation. Religion and spirituality can work together to create healthier individuals in mind, body, and spirit.

[Astargath]

I really have a hard time understanding how religious people cope with themselves with this kind of stuff. You seem to be perfectly ok with god, a dictator, making rules that if you don't obey, you get killed for. How is that an all loving god? Why would you agree with that, why do you think that's a good idea at all? So a guy picking up sticks should be put to death because god said you shouldn't work on the sabbath and you think thats fair because ey, god said you shouldn't? Where is your free will then? Not fucking free will if you get killed for it, is it? Plus what the fuck is that law anyways that you shouldn't work in a specific day and how fucking horrible is it, to work on a specific day that you should die for it. You think if Trump or any other president would make a law like that today, anyone would agree? Honestly you people are fucked in the head.

The reason you feel this way is because you regard this particular commandment as trivial and regard God as myth. Thus your imagination is filled with visions of inquisitions and persecuted innocents.

There is no religions group I am aware of even extremist sects that advocate a death penalty for working on the sabbath.
Your fear of being forced at gun point to relax one day a week seems far fetched to the point of ridiculousness.

You also fail to appreciate that without God you are basically operating under nihilistic assumptions and under nihilism any system of rules a society chooses to implement and enforce is by definition arbitrary and meaningless. You can operate by might makes right, let the judges make the rules, or let a majority vote rule all are equally arbitrary and meaningless under nihilism.

What is interesting about the Sabbath is the high degree of importance that is attached to it in the Bible. As other commandment like don't murder are obvious in their necessity one cannot help but wonder why the Sabbath is so critical that it is essentially elevated to near same level of importance as avoiding murder.

Yes, I'm sorry for not being able to be a sheep and follow the orders of ''god'' because he ''knows better''. Hey, how do you know he knows better, well, you don't but he does. And here we have the biggest flaw of religion and gods and the silliest argument made by religious followers. No no, don't try to understand god, you can't, god works in mysterious ways yet I'm supposed to follow everything he says because, he knows everything but I don't know if he knows everything, you see the flaw here?

How do we know that a law like ''don't work on the sabbath or die'' is stupid? Because we have evolved, our culture has evolved, socially we have evolved. We know that putting someone to death for something like that is not fair just like many other terrible things that the bible mentions, our morality is superior now which to me shows that the word of ''god'' is nothing, if god was a god, everything said in the bible would make sense to everyone and would be morally perfect, wouldn't it?

Here is the thing, even if your god existed, how would I ever know, here while I am alive, that he is in fact an all loving god and not a dictator that's just experimenting on us, how do I know that he is no deceiving us or that he doesn't even care about us? If I'm not able to understand anything he does how am I supposed to trust him?

I understand that after a life of indoctrination is really hard to snap out of it, I was like this too, god was everything to me but eventually I realized he wasn't answering my prayers, he wasn't really answering anyones prayers, he didn't make much sense when I actually looked into it and I was still a believer and prayed for days and days for him to give me a sign, something to know that he truly exists, nothing happened, god doesn't exist.

[BADecker]

I understand that after a life of indoctrination is really hard to snap out of it, I was like this too, god was everything to me but eventually I realized he wasn't answering my prayers, he wasn't really answering anyones prayers, he didn't make much sense when I actually looked into it and I was still a believer and prayed for days and days for him to give me a sign, something to know that he truly exists, nothing happened, god doesn't exist.

Your tummy grumbles. Yo are hungry. It is a request. God hears it and answers with food.

God gave good strength to all kinds of beings (angels) and people. God made them good and free. They invented ways of turning against God. When something bad happens, it is because bad beings are using God's strength for evil. That's why you don't get the good things you ask for sometimes.

But, if you asked God for a sign that He existed, you already had that sign in the faith you had in Him, and the studies you studied about Him. So, what else was He to do? The thing He did for you was to answer your real prayer, which was a prayer asking for proof that He didn't exist, rather than that He did. So, He gave you that, and now you don't believe He exists, even though you know He might exist, because you haven't checked out every corner of the universe to see if God is there or not.

Dark matter in space is what hides our view of God. It's a good thing, too. Because if we saw Him, the overwhelming sight of His surpassing beauty and glory would cause us to die in awed shock.

[Astargath]

I understand that after a life of indoctrination is really hard to snap out of it, I was like this too, god was everything to me but eventually I realized he wasn't answering my prayers, he wasn't really answering anyones prayers, he didn't make much sense when I actually looked into it and I was still a believer and prayed for days and days for him to give me a sign, something to know that he truly exists, nothing happened, god doesn't exist.

Your tummy grumbles. Yo are hungry. It is a request. God hears it and answers with food.

God gave good strength to all kinds of beings (angels) and people. God made them good and free. They invented ways of turning against God. When something bad happens, it is because bad beings are using God's strength for evil. That's why you don't get the good things you ask for sometimes.

But, if you asked God for a sign that He existed, you already had that sign in the faith you had in Him, and the studies you studied about Him. So, what else was He to do? The thing He did for you was to answer your real prayer, which was a prayer asking for proof that He didn't exist, rather than that He did. So, He gave you that, and now you don't believe He exists, even though you know He might exist, because you haven't checked out every corner of the universe to see if God is there or not.

Dark matter in space is what hides our view of God. It's a good thing, too. Because if we saw Him, the overwhelming sight of His surpassing beauty and glory would cause us to die in awed shock.

Speaking of dark matter, here is a video that says what I usually want to say about religion and heaven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GjCRWeG_AQ

It's short but straight to the point, enjoy, maybe it changes your mind at least just so slightly.

[CoinCube]

Speaking of dark matter, here is a video that says what I usually want to say about religion and heaven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GjCRWeG_AQ

It's short but straight to the point, enjoy, maybe it changes your mind at least just so slightly.

Yep that sounds like your argument Astargath.

Several reasons I do not find it moving.

1) It assumes the reality of hell as eternal torment forever. As I have said this is not a belief I share. Here again is some info on an alternative view.

Annihilationism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings and all fallen angels (all of the damned) will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).

Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God's love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[3] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God's presence. Thus those who elect to reject salvation through their free will are eternally destroyed because of the inherent incompatibility of sin with God's holy character. Seventh-day Adventists posit that living in eternal hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin, as the Wicked will perish (as the Bible says) in the Lake of fire.[4][5][6][7] Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there can be no punishment after death because the dead cease to exist.[8]

Annihilationism stands in contrast to both the traditional and long-standing belief in eternal torture in the lake of fire, and the belief that everyone will be saved (universal reconciliation or simply "universalism").

The belief in Annihilationism, has appeared throughout Christian history, but has always been in the minority.[9]

2) It assumes that evil will be allowed to exist in heaven.

3) It has very pro communism undertones. This is actually ironic because pathological ideologies like communism are exactly what people turn to once they reject God.

I have laid out all of these arguments up-thread and you are not convinced. That is ok we all must forge our own identities and the path each of us take is different.

I have noticed in our multi page back and for that you usually seek only to deconstruct the position of others. I recommend instead that you focus your energy constructively. Seek to determine exactly what you do believe in. What is your truth and what are its implications. From there you can better evaluate if you have chosen a truth you can live with or a false ideology leading to a dead end.

In the end we all live out our faiths whatever they may be. If our beliefs do not line up with reality then we suffer and learn.

Imagine Dragons - Believer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wtfhZwyrcc

[Astargath]

Speaking of dark matter, here is a video that says what I usually want to say about religion and heaven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GjCRWeG_AQ

It's short but straight to the point, enjoy, maybe it changes your mind at least just so slightly.

Yep that sounds like your argument Astargath.

Several reasons I do not find it moving.

1) It assumes the reality of hell as eternal torment forever. As I have said this is not a belief I share. Here again is some info on an alternative view.

Annihilationism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings and all fallen angels (all of the damned) will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).

Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God's love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[3] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God's presence. Thus those who elect to reject salvation through their free will are eternally destroyed because of the inherent incompatibility of sin with God's holy character. Seventh-day Adventists posit that living in eternal hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin, as the Wicked will perish (as the Bible says) in the Lake of fire.[4][5][6][7] Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there can be no punishment after death because the dead cease to exist.[8]

Annihilationism stands in contrast to both the traditional and long-standing belief in eternal torture in the lake of fire, and the belief that everyone will be saved (universal reconciliation or simply "universalism").

The belief in Annihilationism, has appeared throughout Christian history, but has always been in the minority.[9]

2) It assumes that evil will be allowed to exist in heaven.

3) It has very pro communism undertones. This is actually ironic because pathological ideologies like communism are exactly what people turn to once they reject God.

I have laid out all of these arguments up-thread and you are not convinced. That is ok we all must forge our own identities and the path each of us take is different.

I have noticed in our multi page back and for that you usually seek only to deconstruct the position of others. I recommend instead that you focus your energy constructively. Seek to determine exactly what you do believe in. What is your truth and what are its implications. From there you can better evaluate if you have chosen a truth you can live with or a false ideology leading to a dead end.

In the end we all live out our faiths whatever they may be. If our beliefs do not line up with reality then we suffer and learn.

Imagine Dragons - Believer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wtfhZwyrcc

1. Even if it didn't, you would still have to live in heaven knowing that your wife, mother or anyone who didn't believe in god are gone forever

2. It actually makes a really good point which is: how can heaven be evil free without turning humans into mindless robots

3. The idea to worship god forever is quite disturbing.

4. Living in heaven with someone that raped you when you were a kid is also quite disturbing.

5. You get to worship god forever and ever, such a meaningful life, right?

[CoinCube]

1. Even if it didn't, you would still have to live in heaven knowing that your wife, mother or anyone who didn't believe in god are gone forever

2. It actually makes a really good point which is: how can heaven be evil free without turning humans into mindless robots

3. The idea to worship god forever is quite disturbing.

4. Living in heaven with someone that raped you when you were a kid is also quite disturbing.

5. You get to worship god forever and ever, such a meaningful life, right?

The concept of how to reconcile free will and God is a deep one. Are you really interested in exploring this or are you just looking for areas of complexity so you can quickly dismiss the entire matter as "disturbing" or "not meaningful"?

If you are interested in this topic it requires some contemplation it as it is one of the deeper theological challenges.

Here is a lengthy and a short source of information.

The first source is a long video by Rabbi Moishe New. He goes into great depth on the topic of Free Choice, Determinism, and God's Knowledge.

Do We Really Have Free Will?
https://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/1994469/jewish/Do-We-Really-Have-Free-Will.htm

A shorter answer assuming you lack the time to watch the video can be found in the comments section below that video. Here is comment by Ruth Housman sums it up well.

"The end point of the debate, is to reach a point in which it isn't a debatable question, because one's WILL then, in terms of relinquishment of free will, is identical to the Will of the Creator, so one freely gives up one's free will for the sake of the story that brought the individual forward, toward the knowledge that One ness is the pervasive force in the universe and that God controls not part but the entire story. Every soul has a journey and every detail of that journey is, paradoxically "known" within a framework that on this "plane" feels like free will. The journey of soul, that does require movement forward, as in rejecting evil inclination, brings one to the final realization it always was, All God."

In regards to your critiques.

1. Hopefully, those who have erred in life and beliefs (by definition basically all of us) will be given the opportunity to rectify ourselves after death if we fail to do so in life. We do not have definitive sources knowledge of this currently and theological beliefs vary.

2. Envisioning humans as mindless robots in heaven misunderstands free will see the video lecture above.

3 and 5. What could be more meaningful then honoring the creator and sustainer of the entire universe?

4. If an individual truly repents of a horrific sin and crime they not only reject the sin. They are horrified by it, wish they had never done it, would never do it again, and attempt to make a genuine and full amends for the harm they did. As evil cannot exists in heaven true repentance of all sin would seem a necessary prerequisite.

[Astargath]

1. Even if it didn't, you would still have to live in heaven knowing that your wife, mother or anyone who didn't believe in god are gone forever

2. It actually makes a really good point which is: how can heaven be evil free without turning humans into mindless robots

3. The idea to worship god forever is quite disturbing.

4. Living in heaven with someone that raped you when you were a kid is also quite disturbing.

5. You get to worship god forever and ever, such a meaningful life, right?

The concept of how to reconcile free will and God is a deep one. Are you really interested in exploring this or are you just looking for areas of complexity so you can quickly dismiss the entire matter as "disturbing" or "not meaningful"?

If you are interested in this topic it requires some contemplation it as it is one of the deeper theological challenges.

Here is a lengthy and a short source of information.

The first source is a long video by Rabbi Moishe New. He goes into great depth on the topic of Free Choice, Determinism, and God's Knowledge.

Do We Really Have Free Will?
https://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/1994469/jewish/Do-We-Really-Have-Free-Will.htm

A shorter answer assuming you lack the time to watch the video can be found in the comments section below that video. Here is comment by Ruth Housman sums it up well.

"The end point of the debate, is to reach a point in which it isn't a debatable question, because one's WILL then, in terms of relinquishment of free will, is identical to the Will of the Creator, so one freely gives up one's free will for the sake of the story that brought the individual forward, toward the knowledge that One ness is the pervasive force in the universe and that God controls not part but the entire story. Every soul has a journey and every detail of that journey is, paradoxically "known" within a framework that on this "plane" feels like free will. The journey of soul, that does require movement forward, as in rejecting evil inclination, brings one to the final realization it always was, All God."

In regards to your critiques.

1. Hopefully, those who have erred in life and beliefs (by definition basically all of us) will be given the opportunity to rectify ourselves after death if we fail to do so in life. We do not have definitive sources knowledge of this currently and theological beliefs vary.

2. Envisioning humans as mindless robots in heaven misunderstands free will see the video lecture above.

3 and 5. What could be more meaningful then honoring the creator and sustainer of the entire universe?

4. If an individual truly repents of a horrific sin and crime they not only reject the sin. They are horrified by it, wish they had never done it, would never do it again, and attempt to make a genuine and full amends for the harm they did. As evil cannot exists in heaven true repentance of all sin would seem a necessary prerequisite.

See that's the problem, if God is real and the only proof left for his existence is a book, I would expect that book to have something different from other books like explaining in detail how we have free will or the rules of heaven, instead you have catholics, baptists, orthodox and a ton more, interpreting the book their own way.

1. If that's really the case that also means all kind of rapists, murderers are given that chance too and you find yourself in heaven with all of them, you did good all your life and they didn't and yet you are in the same place, what was the point of life on earth anyways then? Why is this not clearly explained in the bible?

2. No it doesn't. The point is, how is god going to prevent humans from committing sin in heaven, it is not explained in the bible as usual.

3. A god omnipotent and all powerful certainly would not care or need to be worshiped at all.

4. Although you can fully repent, how can god prevent the person from committing a sin afterwards.

[Elliemutz]

Now I know the reason why some people with high IQs become atheist.  Scientist who were really intelligent do not believe the existence of our Almighty God, Einstein is exception.  They became rebellious sometimes, high egos with super high confidence that they do not believe that their someone who is behind all the  things we have on Earth.  And because of thinking their superiority, they do almost what they want.  They abused their health compared to people who believes to the existence of God.  These people values their lives as they know that our body is the temple of Christ.  Thus, people who believes God values their life.  They are mostly the contented person and they are mostly the happy beings.

[vachellie]

People hate religion - because they look at it as organized criminal minds.
But people are naturally spiritual.
There is spirituality in all we do, in our passion, mindset, actions, emotions.

So yeah.. People would rather be SBNR
SPIRITUAL BUT NOT RELIGIOUS.

[Astargath]

Now I know the reason why some people with high IQs become atheist.  Scientist who were really intelligent do not believe the existence of our Almighty God, Einstein is exception.  They became rebellious sometimes, high egos with super high confidence that they do not believe that their someone who is behind all the  things we have on Earth.  And because of thinking their superiority, they do almost what they want.  They abused their health compared to people who believes to the existence of God.  These people values their lives as they know that our body is the temple of Christ.  Thus, people who believes God values their life.  They are mostly the contented person and they are mostly the happy beings.

Einstein did not believe in any religious gods, stop spreading the same old myth.

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth.

—Letter to Guy H. Raner Jr. (28 September 1949)

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends…. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.

That being said, he did talk about the universe and how it operates, he believed it was not random.

[alisha123]

Religion is not about hate, so the people that hate the other ones are not so religious that they think they are! Also, the IQ has nothing to do with religion. I strongly believe that IQ has nothing to do with religion, just because are two things so different. No study cand explain the presence of God (The belief is in you) and no study can tell you how smart you are so.. this is my point of view!

[BADecker]

Different religion and different traditions making your health better or harm you. At my opinion first of all everyone should think about consiquences before doing religion stuff.

While this is true, according to the complete definition of religion, your idea is a religion if you follow it wholeheartedly.