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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3039463 times)
joeventura
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April 29, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
 #32981

I think that i managed to get my e-mail blocked by knc support system after flooding them with e-mail asking them when will they refund me.

I know that they are reading this and i do know that they are holding my refund in order to not get into my Group Buy, but that would be very stupid since sending the money today i will only get them on friday or next week. Don't worry knc i can make plenty of free emails to start flooding you with the same question:

WHEN WILL YOU REFUND ME???

Well if its any consolation, my refund request was made around 3 weeks ago and still no funds yet...

Ok I DID call them and i have requested the refund in bitcoins since it will be faster than the wire transfer. They will refund me at the bitstamp's exchange rate for the day when the refund is done. Keith said a couple of days. With a bit of luck I may get my refund this week! Back to waiting game.

It will work out.

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RealMalatesta
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April 29, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
 #32982

Friend of mine just sent me this, been waiting 15 days already. Emphasis mine.

Quote
We are terribly sorry for delay with processing your refund. Finance department is extremely busy and the bank transfer refund might take few weeks.

Things don't smell to good in KNC land.

Well, if their finance department is extremely busy, they should use an invention which is already a couple of years old: Online banking. If they knew how quickly you can transfer funds from one account to the other with this invention, they would be astonished....


However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

I have sent out my request for a refund yesterday and have received a response that they will transfer it to the financial department. Frankly: I do not give an ants-eye where they do transfer my request to. They have to  comply. That's all.

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and - if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

While this may sound harsh, I'm really fed up with companies announcing hardware, cashing in asap, delivering crappy hardware as "compensation" and ignoring their clients.

Just remember: They sold miners for 13 million US$ in four hours. And they didn't give their clients a payment window of 30 days - it was "order and pay". Meanwhile, they have invested the money for building one of the worlds biggest data centers in an former helicopter hangar for mining Bitcoins. So no mercy....
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April 29, 2014, 04:11:51 PM
 #32983

Friend of mine just sent me this, been waiting 15 days already. Emphasis mine.

Quote
We are terribly sorry for delay with processing your refund. Finance department is extremely busy and the bank transfer refund might take few weeks.

Things don't smell to good in KNC land.

Well, if their finance department is extremely busy, they should use an invention which is already a couple of years old: Online banking. If they knew how quickly you can transfer funds from one account to the other with this invention, they would be astonished....


However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

I have sent out my request for a refund yesterday and have received a response that they will transfer it to the financial department. Frankly: I do not give an ants-eye where they do transfer my request to. They have to  comply. That's all.

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and - if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

While this may sound harsh, I'm really fed up with companies announcing hardware, cashing in asap, delivering crappy hardware as "compensation" and ignoring their clients.

Just remember: They sold miners for 13 million US$ in four hours. And they didn't give their clients a payment window of 30 days - it was "order and pay". Meanwhile, they have invested the money for building one of the worlds biggest data centers in an former helicopter hangar for mining Bitcoins. So no mercy....

I told Anna on the phone that it takes 5 minutes to send a refund from an online banking account and she told me that there are A LOT of paper that needs to be filled for the refund. I suspect that somehow sending refunds via wire transfers messes with their financial reports. KnC is almost one year one and they want to have pretty numbers in the financial books. Sending a refund in bitcoins doesn't have to be included in the books so it's better for them.

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murraypaul
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April 29, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
 #32984

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

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RealMalatesta
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April 29, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
 #32985


I told Anna on the phone that it takes 5 minutes to send a refund from an online banking account and she told me that there are A LOT of paper that needs to be filled for the refund. I suspect that somehow sending refunds via wire transfers messes with their financial reports. KnC is almost one year one and they want to have pretty numbers in the financial books. Sending a refund in bitcoins doesn't have to be included in the books so it's better for them.

Frankly: None of our business. If they have to tap-dance naked in front of the CEO before they release a payment or eat five packages of Smoerrebroed before they can release a payment is not interesting for me. I don't tell them about my itching scrotum. Because it hasn't anything to do with them sending out funds. So they should do what they have to do - sending out funds - and sort out the rest later or hire more people or go to Church every Sunday - whatever suits for them.
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April 29, 2014, 04:21:27 PM
 #32986

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Need more?
RoadStress
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April 29, 2014, 04:24:11 PM
 #32987


Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)


But KnC accepted us as private persons. My invoice is under my name, not under a business name. They breached their own terms right from the start.

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Biffa
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April 29, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
 #32988


Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)


But KnC accepted us as private persons. My invoice is under my name, not under a business name. They breached their own terms right from the start.

You can be a sole trader.

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Biffa
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April 29, 2014, 04:26:03 PM
 #32989

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Need more?

Those are consumer directives, as already mentioned KnC sold B2B

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RoadStress
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April 29, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
 #32990


Those are consumer directives, as already mentioned KnC sold B2B

How can they prove that they sold B2B if they sold to private persons? Where is the business involved?

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murraypaul
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April 29, 2014, 04:30:14 PM
 #32991

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 May 1997 on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 20 December 1985 to protect the consumer in respect of contracts negotiated away from business premises (85/577/EEC)
DIRECTIVE 1999/44/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 25 May 1999 on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts

You explicitly contracted with KNC on the basis that you were operating as a business, not a consumer. You are therefore assumed to be outside the realm of consumer protection unless you can first convince a court to ignore that portion of your contract.

Quote
Need more?

Yes.

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RealMalatesta
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April 29, 2014, 04:32:24 PM
 #32992


Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Just read the remarks regarding the sentence of the European Court from May 3, 2007, regarding the case C-303/05 (Advocaten voor de Wereld VZW vs. Leden van de Ministerraad). Once there are several suits filed in several jurisdictions, you can ask for an arrest warrant for making sure that your assets will not be transferred by the involved persons. Furthermore, if there are several jurisdictions involved, it is likely that you can convince the DA in your jurisdiction that the legal proceedings be speed up, thus leading to a shortened procedure and the filing of an european arrest warrant. Purpose of such a warrant is that the case be carried out in your jurisdiction.
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April 29, 2014, 04:38:46 PM
 #32993


Those are consumer directives, as already mentioned KnC sold B2B

How can they prove that they sold B2B if they sold to private persons? Where is the business involved?

When you place your order you have to tick the box that says " I have read and agree to the terms and conditions. Click here"

1. Agreement structure

1.1  These terms and conditions of sale shall apply to all sales and deliveries of products (the “Products”) from KnCMiner AB (“KnCMiner”) to the purchaser (the “Purchaser”). The terms and conditions of sale together with the order and the order confirmation (if any) are jointly referred to as the “Agreement”. Any conditions contrary to the content of these conditions, e.g. purchase terms or other terms attached to or referred to in the Purchaser’s order, shall only be applicable if such conditions have been approved in writing by an authorized signatory of KnCMiner.

1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

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RealMalatesta
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April 29, 2014, 04:48:34 PM
 #32994

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 May 1997 on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 20 December 1985 to protect the consumer in respect of contracts negotiated away from business premises (85/577/EEC)
DIRECTIVE 1999/44/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 25 May 1999 on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts

You explicitly contracted with KNC on the basis that you were operating as a business, not a consumer. You are therefore assumed to be outside the realm of consumer protection unless you can first convince a court to ignore that portion of your contract.

Quote
Need more?

Yes.


In a first stage, I do not have to convince any court. I have to file a lawsuit. In Europe, you can do this basically with a simple letter sent to your local police station.

But you are right: They claim in their TandC that you have to make a business out of the miner. However, this is even better: So private persons can claim that they were in a state of "Eigenschaftsirrtum". Furthermore: If you want to set up a business as an individual, you still are protected as a consumer.
murraypaul
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April 29, 2014, 04:48:49 PM
 #32995


Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Just read the remarks regarding the sentence of the European Court from May 3, 2007, regarding the case C-303/05 (Advocaten voor de Wereld VZW vs. Leden van de Ministerraad). Once there are several suits filed in several jurisdictions, you can ask for an arrest warrant for making sure that your assets will not be transferred by the involved persons. Furthermore, if there are several jurisdictions involved, it is likely that you can convince the DA in your jurisdiction that the legal proceedings be speed up, thus leading to a shortened procedure and the filing of an european arrest warrant. Purpose of such a warrant is that the case be carried out in your jurisdiction.

I can't read anything in that decision which remotely supports your position.
It affirms the legality of European Arrest Warrants.
Those are issued for criminal offences.
It says nothing about civil suits, suits filed in multiple jurisdictions, or the ability to issue a EAW for multiple civil suits.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_criminal_matters/l33167_en.htm
Quote
The framework decision defines "European arrest warrant" as any judicial decision issued by a Member State with a view to the arrest or surrender by another Member State of a requested person, for the purposes of:

- conducting a criminal prosecution;
- executing a custodial sentence;
- executing a detention order.

The warrant applies in the following cases:

- where a final sentence of imprisonment or a detention order has been imposed for a period of at least four months;
- for offences punishable by imprisonment or a detention order for a maximum period of at least one year.

What relevance does that have to KNC being late refunding your money?

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RoadStress
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April 29, 2014, 04:50:32 PM
 #32996


1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

There must be some laws for B2B too. What if you can invoke that something happened and you aren't able to conduct a business with the Products? And since the Products (Neptunes) aren't shipped yet you aren't conducting any business right? You would if you had the products, but since you don't there is no business.

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murraypaul
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April 29, 2014, 04:51:37 PM
 #32997


1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

There must be some laws for B2B too. What if you can invoke that something happened and you aren't able to conduct a business with the Products? And since the Products (Neptunes) aren't shipped yet you aren't conducting any business right? You would if you had the products, but since you don't there is no business.

If KNC violate the terms of your contract, you sue them in civil courts for damages.

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April 29, 2014, 04:54:20 PM
 #32998


Quote
In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

Quote
- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Just read the remarks regarding the sentence of the European Court from May 3, 2007, regarding the case C-303/05 (Advocaten voor de Wereld VZW vs. Leden van de Ministerraad). Once there are several suits filed in several jurisdictions, you can ask for an arrest warrant for making sure that your assets will not be transferred by the involved persons. Furthermore, if there are several jurisdictions involved, it is likely that you can convince the DA in your jurisdiction that the legal proceedings be speed up, thus leading to a shortened procedure and the filing of an european arrest warrant. Purpose of such a warrant is that the case be carried out in your jurisdiction.

I can't read anything in that decision which remotely supports your position.
It affirms the legality of European Arrest Warrants.
Those are issued for criminal offences.
It says nothing about civil suits, suits filed in multiple jurisdictions, or the ability to issue a EAW for multiple civil suits.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_criminal_matters/l33167_en.htm
Quote
The framework decision defines "European arrest warrant" as any judicial decision issued by a Member State with a view to the arrest or surrender by another Member State of a requested person, for the purposes of:

conducting a criminal prosecution;
executing a custodial sentence;
executing a detention order.
The warrant applies in the following cases:

where a final sentence of imprisonment or a detention order has been imposed for a period of at least four months;
for offences punishable by imprisonment or a detention order for a maximum period of at least one year.

What relevance does that have to KNC being late refunding your money?

If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.
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April 29, 2014, 04:55:41 PM
 #32999


1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

There must be some laws for B2B too. What if you can invoke that something happened and you aren't able to conduct a business with the Products? And since the Products (Neptunes) aren't shipped yet you aren't conducting any business right? You would if you had the products, but since you don't there is no business.

Yes, when you have a B2B contract, it is far easier to sue for damages resulting from late delivery.
HOWEVER KnC have delibaretely set a very big timeframe for delivery (Q1/Q2 14) as to protect them if they ship "late".

Quote
If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.

Is the acceptable time for a refund stated in their TOS? If not, you could sue them for fraud but they would likely return your money in the meantime, getting them off the hook.
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April 29, 2014, 04:55:53 PM
 #33000

In a first stage, I do not have to convince any court. I have to file a lawsuit.

No, you have to convince a court that they have jurisdiction to hear your lawsuit.
You have to apply to them to be allowed to serve your filing [on KNC] out of their jurisdiction.

Quote
In Europe, you can do this basically with a simple letter sent to your local police station.

At least in the UK, that is simply not true.
The police would have no interest in your civil complain against KNC, they investigate criminal offenses.

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But you are right: They claim in their TandC that you have to make a business out of the miner. However, this is even better: So private persons can claim that they were in a state of "Eigenschaftsirrtum".

You can claim all you want, you still have to file a lawsuit, get agreement to serve out of state, and convince the court to accept jurisdiction.

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Furthermore: If you want to set up a business as an individual, you still are protected as a consumer.

I don't think that is true.

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