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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3008438 times)
erk
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September 09, 2013, 11:24:00 PM
 #8921



1000w might be a good choice for hardcore overclocking.. time will tell Smiley
How do we know KNCminer chips can be overclocked? Did I miss some announcement from them?
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September 09, 2013, 11:27:29 PM
 #8922

Your funny guys, you are ordering PSUs too early
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September 09, 2013, 11:29:17 PM
 #8923

Your funny guys, you are ordering PSUs too early

+1

when i get a tracking number, then ill head down to the computer store. lol
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September 09, 2013, 11:37:37 PM
 #8924

Delivered.  1 Bad Ass Power Supply.
To be delivered.. 1 Bad Ass Asic miner.   ;-)  
Sad to think that the power supply will outlast the miner.  
Oh well.  




Per a conversation with KNC.. I was advised that using a power supply like this one would be good for the efficiencyof the miner.  Secondly I work in IT.. and can assure that this bad boy will get used appropriately long after I blow holes in the Asic miner once it has served it's purpose.  Thank you drive through.  


฿itC0in Tr@d3r
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September 09, 2013, 11:45:49 PM
 #8925

although i got to ask why a cooler master and not a corsair

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September 10, 2013, 12:00:07 AM
 #8926

although i got to ask why a cooler master and not a corsair

My guess is cost. Still many people might be surprised to know that Corsair doesn't manufacture any power supplies, and neither do Coolermaster, OCZ, PC Power & Cooling (after 2009), Thermaltake, Silverstone, EVGA, Rosewill, NZTX, XFX, etc.  There are only a half dozen companies which produce (good) ATX power supplies in the world.  It is sometimes funny to have two people arguing about which is the better PSU when both are the exact same power board made by the same company and the only thing that is different is the stickers and color of the cables. Smiley

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-oem-manufacturer,2913.html

Most of the high end PSU are made by companies that most people have never heard of like Channel Well, FSP, Sirtec, HEC, Super Flower, etc. Two companies which actually make their own power supplies are Seasonic and Enermax (most newer models).  SeaSonic sells units under their own brand and they also make units for other brands.  One thing to watch out is the other brands often will change manufacturers even within a same "model" so without seeing the power supply label and looking up the UL code you really have no idea who made the PSU.  That is one reason I have always recommended SeaSonic.  Every SeasSonic is made by SeaSonic and nobody else.




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September 10, 2013, 12:23:30 AM
 #8927

For the same money I'd have preferred the corsair's digital platinum PSU with 7years warranty and 92% efficiency in worst case Wink
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139041

Platinum doesn't mean 92% efficiency "in worst case".  More like 89% to 92% depending on load on 120V.  On edit:  240V is generally 2% to 3% higher efficiency which is what btc_uzr was referring to. 

Still a very good PSU.  

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/CORSAIR_75-001305_860W_ECOS%203323_Report.pdf

One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end).  Without testing it there is no way to know for sure what the overcurrent limit is for that connector (good PSU limit both overall current and current per wire).  The PCIe standard only mandates that two 8 pin connector supply 300W (1.25@ @ 12VDC).  Now the PSU probably can supply a lot more than that but just by looking at it there is no way to know for sure.  Most reviews only show total load not max load per connector and certainly not at amperages beyond what a PC would use anyways.  

To clarify imagine a Jupiter uses 790W that works out to 16.4A per connector however with this PSU two connectors are on the same set of wires meaning 32.9A.  If the PSU has the overcurrent set to say 40A per connector (connector on PSU) then it would work fine.  However lets say it is only 30A.  Despite the PSU having enough total power its current protection system would cause it to trip because too much if being pulled from one wire.   This could have been avoided if KNC had used EPS12V connector plus PCIE connectors instead.
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September 10, 2013, 12:26:30 AM
 #8928

For the same money I'd have preferred the corsair's digital platinum PSU with 7years warranty and 92% efficiency in worst case Wink
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139041

Platinum doesn't mean 92% efficiency "in worst case".  More like 89% to 92% depending on load.  Still a very good PSU. 

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/CORSAIR_75-001305_860W_ECOS%203323_Report.pdf

One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end).  There is no way to know for sure what the overcurrent limit is set for on that connector.  By the PCIe standard it only needs to handle 300W (2x 150W connector) which is 12.5A @ 12VDC.  The PSU likely can deliver MORE but without testing there is no way to be sure.   If the PSU is designed to limit on that connector/wire to 15A and the Jupiter pulls more than 7.5A per connector then it could trip despite the PSU having more power to run a Jupiter.  This could have been avoided if KNC had used EPS12V connector plus PCIE connectors instead.

I use the 860i myself and will probably upgrade to 1200i.
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September 10, 2013, 12:30:46 AM
 #8929

For the same money I'd have preferred the corsair's digital platinum PSU with 7years warranty and 92% efficiency in worst case Wink
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139041

Platinum doesn't mean 92% efficiency "in worst case".  More like 89% to 92% depending on load.  Still a very good PSU. 

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/CORSAIR_75-001305_860W_ECOS%203323_Report.pdf

One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end).  There is no way to know for sure what the overcurrent limit is set for on that connector.  By the PCIe standard it only needs to handle 300W (2x 150W connector) which is 12.5A @ 12VDC.  The PSU likely can deliver MORE but without testing there is no way to be sure.   If the PSU is designed to limit on that connector/wire to 15A and the Jupiter pulls more than 7.5A per connector then it could trip despite the PSU having more power to run a Jupiter.  This could have been avoided if KNC had used EPS12V connector plus PCIE connectors instead.

This product offers 92% in worst case with 230Vac:
http://cwsmgmt.corsair.com/media/catalog/product/a/x/ax860i-efficiency.png

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September 10, 2013, 12:32:27 AM
 #8930

This product offers 92% in worst case with 230Vac:
http://cwsmgmt.corsair.com/media/catalog/product/a/x/ax860i-efficiency.png

True, true.  Was thinking 120V.
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September 10, 2013, 12:39:58 AM
 #8931

One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end).  Without testing it there is no way to know for sure what the overcurrent limit is for that connector (good PSU limit both overall current and current per wire).  The PCIe standard only mandates that two 8 pin connector supply 300W (1.25@ @ 12VDC).  Now the PSU probably can supply a lot more than that but just by looking at it there is no way to know for sure.  Most reviews only show total load not max load per connector and certainly not at amperages beyond what a PC would use anyways.  
I believe such a limit would violate the EPS12V specification (see Table 28 of version 2.91, but other versions have a similar requirement) which specifies that overcurrent protection may not trigger until a rail reaches, at minimum, its specified peak current.

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September 10, 2013, 12:43:59 AM
 #8932

(...)
One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end). 
(...)

it has 6 separate PCIe according to the specification and the picture
http://cwsmgmt.corsair.com/media/catalog/product/a/x/ax860i_psu_sideview_a.png

or did I misunderstand sth. ?

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September 10, 2013, 12:53:13 AM
 #8933

So 9/9 - any word on the first shipment wave?
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September 10, 2013, 12:54:13 AM
 #8934

Yeah - due in about 3 weeks...
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September 10, 2013, 01:19:58 AM
 #8935

One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end).  Without testing it there is no way to know for sure what the overcurrent limit is for that connector (good PSU limit both overall current and current per wire).  The PCIe standard only mandates that two 8 pin connector supply 300W (1.25@ @ 12VDC).  Now the PSU probably can supply a lot more than that but just by looking at it there is no way to know for sure.  Most reviews only show total load not max load per connector and certainly not at amperages beyond what a PC would use anyways.  
I believe such a limit would violate the EPS12V specification (see Table 28 of version 2.91, but other versions have a similar requirement) which specifies that overcurrent protection may not trigger until a rail reaches, at minimum, its specified peak current.

For those wondering what JK is referencing:
Quote
Table 28: Over Current Limits
Voltage  Over Current Limit (Iout limit)
+3.3 V  110% minimum; 150% maximum
+5 V  110% minimum; 150% maximum
+12V1  Peak current minimum; 20A maximum
+12V2  Peak current minimum; 20A maximum
+12V3  Peak current minimum; 20A maximum
+12V4  Peak current minimum; 20A maximum (22A maximum for 750W-800W)
http://www.pcpower.com/downloads/EPS12VSpec2_91.pdf

IIRC later version of the spec removed the requirement for multiple 12V rails and with it the max current on the 12V rail.  

Joel, I think what may be unclear Joel is that in the PSU linked above while the PSU has 6 PCIe connectors it puts TWO connectors on one strand of wires. So each pair of PCIe connectors is limited to 22A.  With three pairs of PCIe connectors at least one rail will need to drive TWO PCIE connectors and thus the load on that rail is half of a Jupiter.  To be clear this wouldn't be a problem if a PSU with four PCIe connectors connected each one to a seperate rail but for cost reasons they don't.  If you look at the wiring of all ATX PSU you will find each set of cables has two PCIe connectors in parallel.  So multi-rail PSU are going to be bad news.   

However it isn't quite that bad.  Later versions of the ATX spec removed the requirement for multiple 12V rails and today almost all high end PSU use a single massive (100A+) single 12V rail.  It is cheaper, more efficient, and easier to manage.  However despite all the connectors attaching to the same rail for safety no PSU is stupid enough to allow 100A to flow down one connector.   100 amps is a massive amount of power enough in a short circuit situation to cause a fire or death.  So while technically a PSU can deliver 100A+ on any connector (PSU connector not downstream PC standard connectors) no PSU is allowed to do so.  It is just a lawsuit waiting to happen to design a product than if a short circuit occurs will allow 100A+ to flow to wires and connectors not designed for that kind of current.  All single rail PSU employ over current rotection at the connector level to prevent the full PSU current from unsafely flowing down one connector.  They will trip if "excessive" current is going down one connector.  It might be 20A, 30A, 40A all depends on the design and configuration.  There is no way of just looking at the PSU what the limit might be.  To put it into perspective the PCIe spec only require 150W per 8 pin connector so a set of wire with two PCIE connectors in series "normally" won't pull more than 25A.

Lets imagine a Jupiter pulls 790W (65A @ 12VDC) that means the current at each PCIe connector is 16.25A. No problem there.  However if there are two PCIe connectors on a single "strand" and both are used then the current on the strand is 32.5A.  If the overcurrent protection for the connector is 40A well there is no problem but if it is 30A?
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September 10, 2013, 01:42:16 AM
 #8936

it has 6 separate PCIe according to the specification and the picture
http://cwsmgmt.corsair.com/media/catalog/product/a/x/ax860i_psu_sideview_a.png

or did I misunderstand sth. ?

The 6 connectors are on three seperate "strands".  Since you will need four, you will need to use both PCIe connectors from at least one strand*.  If the PSU can't supply enough current to that strand (half the current used by Jupiter) it "could" be a problem.  Not saying it IS a problem just that there is no good way to know without testing.


* This is why EPS12V connector plus 1,2, or 3 PCIe connectors depending on model would be more flexible.  6 connectors usually come as three pairs of PCIe connectors. It probably would be possible to make an EPS12V (8 pin motherboard connector) to PCIe 8pin adapter.  Note an adapter would be necessary because the pinout is different.
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September 10, 2013, 01:47:44 AM
 #8937

I never had good luck with oil -- heat transfer coefficient is 3 to 4 times worse for oil, it's messy, it wicks, is more viscous (doesn't flow as well) etc., etc.  Oil is also a pain to circulate well in the tank itself, especially around heatsinks designed for forced air, and don't forget that it wicks.  And it wicks.  Drop a wire into the tank, and have a puddle on the floor in the morning.  4realz.  Anything dipped in oil becomes a pain to rework, no matter how much solvent you use (trust me, it will get on the board even if the board itself is not submerged.  And it *does* have a smell.  There's fun stuff i've only read about -- boiling point ~30 - 40 C, but it costs way too much.  Something like that.

It just needs to be properly planned and executed. The wicking is easily overcome by gravity and wick stops. Usually stuff you plan to submerge, you don't plan to bring out unless it fails. You can get it in bulk, like $2 a gallon or something, even less in some places. As for flow, inexpensive aquarium powerheads do the trick with ease. Mineral oil, and variant oils, are used in high end server racks all over the world. Just needs to be done well.


I wonder if that would happen - heat dissipation from the circuits -> oil -> glas should be sufficient if you use a fishtank. oil has a heat dissipation of ~0,13 (a fifth of water) and glas is at around 0,76. If you take the surface of a fishtank to be around 1 m² the temperature should even out at max. 65°C if your room temperature is around 20°C

It still needs a method of transfer. Air bubbles, generous surface movement, fans blowing on the glass, heat exchanger such as  radiator/etc. Otherwise with units like these, it'll cook itself. Without it, the heat doesn't dissipate, it collects in the bath. You can put a mild CPU (think single, maybe dual core, few years old) in there, but that's it. Not ASIC chips. You'd need a generous thermal exchange plan.

Oil is great if you plan it out. Super quiet and neat, and easier than watercooling systems (when dealing in bulk large pieces of equipment like this). For just a few chips I might consider water cooling. If I was serous about something other than air cooling for many units, I'd just design a simple submerge tank for oil.

I've always wanted to do a mineral-oil to salt water pool cooling datacenter hahaha. I have a 45,000 gallon pool which can easily be used to absorb heat from some racks, just need to have the oil heat exchanger inside of a closed circuit of the pool's system. Plenty of thermal capacity, and it'll warm the pool up for the crisp winter use.

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September 10, 2013, 01:49:52 AM
 #8938

(...)
One thing to watch out for is that KNC for some reason decided to use 4 PCIe connectors instead of EPS12V connector + 3 PCIe connectors.  On the 860 Corsair 2 of the PCIe connectors are on the same PSU connector (i.e. single set of wires with 1 PSU connector on one end and 2x PCIe connector on other end). 
(...)

it has 6 separate PCIe according to the specification and the picture
http://cwsmgmt.corsair.com/media/catalog/product/a/x/ax860i_psu_sideview_a.png

or did I misunderstand sth. ?

Maybe this might help.

Voltage Regulation and Efficiency Measurements

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/AX860i/5.html

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September 10, 2013, 02:09:35 AM
 #8939

Did the specs change recently on the Saturn or Jupiter? I could have sworn I was getting 400 GH/s but my Jupiter says it is a 200. Has it always been a 200?

Also from KNC's website in the product description it says won't ship until mid November. I thought these were suppose to ship in September unless that means if you order now.

Over 400 pages to read here and now they have their own forum gets crazy. That's exactly what BFL did. Instead of coming here they opened up their own forum. Similar minds think alike?


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September 10, 2013, 02:13:38 AM
 #8940

Did the specs change recently on the Saturn or Jupiter? I could have sworn I was getting 400 GH/s but my Jupiter says it is a 200. Has it always been a 200?

Also from KNC's website in the product description it says won't ship until mid November. I thought these were suppose to ship in September unless that means if you order now.

Over 400 pages to read here and now they have their own forum gets crazy. That's exactly what BFL did. Instead of coming here they opened up their own forum. Similar minds think alike?



THe official specs for the Jupiter went up to 400 awhile back. You can always email them if you're curious. They respond quickly, they've added some CS reps.

KNC's website shows info for the 2nd batch of orders. The first batch is still scheduled to ship starting end of September. The 2nd batch is to ship in November.

They opened a forum up because they're a business and want to provide custom support to their customers. It's common. Fear not.

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