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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012593 times)
RChevalier
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September 05, 2013, 08:07:24 PM
 #8541

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff

Oh, really? It's already September and nobody has still seen a single hashihg chip.

Nothing wrong with what he said.  That's just his personal opinion and I for one agree.
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kingcoin
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September 05, 2013, 08:25:51 PM
 #8542

Hopefully OrSoC have all their DRAM in stock for their SO-DIMM embedded Linux systems:

Quote
The Korean press reports that a huge explosion and fire in Hynix's fabrication plants 1 and 2 in China may put DRAM shipments on hold for the foreseeable future. Hynix is responsible for about 30% of the world's DRAM production.
More on: http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=1F7BAFAD-A8EA-72BF-E41ABEB0A9EB98B9

Why DRAM???

Because the KnC miner contains an embedded Linux system which is using SDRAM. It would have been sad if the ASIC's arrived but the miners could not be shipped because of insufficient supply of SDRAM. However, it seems like the damage is not as severe as first expected and it appears that OrSoC are using Micron SDRAM (MT48LC16M16A2 by inspecting the photo on their site) so hopefully this will not be a problem other than increased memory prices.

OTOH some claim that the supply/price of graphics cards will be hurt by this accident:

http://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/hynix-ddr-memory-plants-in-fire-after-chemical-explosion-market-in-panic/
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September 05, 2013, 08:35:07 PM
 #8543

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff

Oh, really? It's already September and nobody has still seen a single hashihg chip.
What did You expect after being told "End of September".... special dispensation?   duh.  
Give it another 16-20 days, then you have my permission to be an idiot.   Smiley


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mgio
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September 05, 2013, 08:38:32 PM
 #8544

I don't believe they will fail to deliver first gen stuff(which is actually 2nd gen stuff for the ASIC BTC mining community), but they've offered pre-orders for the very same gear at lower prices for November delivery when they could easily have simply said "no more pre-orders", "no more zero interest loans", "no more offloading 100% of the risk to investors/customers" and instead offered hardware for immediate delivery at premium prices in November and beyond. I understand the appeal of the pre-order model when a vendor is green as they don't likely have the VC funding to cover NRE costs, but knc is essentially playing with house money now and has had a chance to differentiate themselves...they passed.

Unlike the past orders, you can wait for November 1st and order with KNC at the new prices which they will deliver on around November 15th.  I don't feel this is a pre-order situation since I don't believe they will run out of stock.  The reason they posted the prices now and the dates is to allow people to plan for the future if they wish to buy an ASIC.   If they didn't release this information, consumers may need to look at Cointerra, HashFast, BF, or another company.  

If you don't like pre-orders, just wait and buy one when they are available.  KNC didn't say you need to pay now or you may miss out on the units scheduled for November.

I don't like pre-orders, particularly pre-orders from companies that have yet to deliver products. I don't have a specific problem with knc, I'm actually considering them for future business, I have a problem with the pre-order model which has brutally punished investors in the past. Even those that paid knc in BTC months ago are very unlikely to recover their investment in BTC. It's a horrible model from the perspective of an investor and the market can and will do better, but apparently knc will not be among the companies leading the way in this regard.

I love the pre-order model. It is the ONLY way to make money unless you are in the business of designing or building ASIC machines yourself.

No company is going to sell hardware for less they can mine with it, unless they have already sold it via pre-order.

It is a risky, but it is only with risk that you will get any reward.

I would never buy a miner UNLESS it was a pre-order. Any miner that is in stock and available and cheap would be sold so quickly that the difficult would rise to the point until the miner was no longer profitable. Or, more likely, the price on the miner would increase to that point (like ASIC Miner did). There is no such thing as a free lunch. No risk, no return.

It's like say, I'm going to wait until that promising startup is successful before I invest. Well if you wait, you are too late. You need to be an early adopter to make money in bitcoin.
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September 05, 2013, 08:39:56 PM
 #8545

well, honestly it is becoming little unusual.

after ~5 months we have got:

new forum
credit card payments
ugly alu case
rendered chip picture
PSU recommendation
slogan for PCB
updated store with new prices and shipping promise for November
program for resellers
banners
photo of PCB
hosting possibility
network protection statement
KNC in China
..and closed lottery;)

we don't have:

any results from testing
any information from development/progress
any working unit/chip
any photo of complete REAL device
any new video (yes, there were videos before KNC start preordering)
information about shipping date (1st/2nd day explanation)

so instead of information for geeks (photos, videos, testing results, information about chip, overclocking, linux, interface), we are still flooded with "news", which are usually completely useless for majority of us. weeks and months of waiting for...slogan for PCB? o rly? I really don't want to bitching here and troll KNC crew (Bitcoinorama, Bargraphics..), but now ending first week of September and if they want to fullfill their promise, they have to test and ship hundreds of miners within 14 days - and it seems more and more impossible. I'm not HW designer or SW engineer, but if they don't have working prototype yet, they simply can't fulfill their promise in 14 days. (chip testing, PCB assembly, miner assembly, testing, configuring, SW debugging, packaging, shipping hundreds of boxes, hundreds of unexpected trifles)

We don't have any answers of basic questions, all is answered like: we are on plan, we ship in September. hmm, splendid..but as far as I know, September is even in Sweden.
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September 05, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
 #8546

yes WE have, YOU just can't read


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September 05, 2013, 08:45:10 PM
 #8547

yes WE have, YOU just can't read

ohh, another superclever member of KNC crew;)

please answer me:

any results from testing - I heard something about 100GH/s but without any prove
any information from development/progress - pls check bitfury thread to see, what I mean
any working unit/chip - or we have? please, where?
any photo of complete REAL device - where?
any new video (yes, there were videos before KNC start preordering) - where?
information about shipping date (1st/2nd day explanation) - where?

once you will answer all my questions, I will admit my fault.
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September 05, 2013, 08:46:40 PM
 #8548

Some people just want to see the world burn.

I'm just not so optimistic as you are.) otherwise, we are on the same boat.
Phoenix1969
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September 05, 2013, 08:52:10 PM
 #8549

100gh/s was a minimum, and we've since been informed there has been a 30%+ performance increase... Working chips will be inside machines, shipped, and hashing away during the last part of september, as always  stated. Nothing has changed, except good things happening. Get with the program, or quit spreading FUD.


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September 05, 2013, 08:53:56 PM
 #8550

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

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September 05, 2013, 08:54:43 PM
 #8551

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.

I also don't see much reward either.  I'm expecting my order to pay off by the end of october, and henceforth barely make anything.  

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September 05, 2013, 08:56:34 PM
 #8552

yes WE have, YOU just can't read
ohh, another superclever member of KNC crew;)
please answer me:
any results from testing - I heard something about 100GH/s but without any prove
any information from development/progress - pls check bitfury thread to see, what I mean
any working unit/chip - or we have? please, where?
any photo of complete REAL device - where?
any new video (yes, there were videos before KNC start preordering) - where?
information about shipping date (1st/2nd day explanation) - where?
once you will answer all my questions, I will admit my fault.

If you caught the article on coindesk from last week, you would know they (KnC) weren't expecting to have the chips this week, so we shouldn't be expecting them to either. How could they have results / tests / photos of a product that doesn't yet exist?

Quote
The company is still on track to receive its chips in September. “It won’t be at the beginning of September, I’ll tell you that,” Cole said. “Everything is still on track for me to have Jupiters in customers’ hands in September.”
http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-takes-delivery-of-asic-boards/
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September 05, 2013, 08:58:39 PM
 #8553

If you caught the article on coindesk from last week..
http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-takes-delivery-of-asic-boards/

ahh, first valid reaction for my post. finally, somebody..thanks a lot dude, going to read it now, I missed the article.
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September 05, 2013, 08:59:18 PM
 #8554

Some people just want to see the world burn.

I'm just not so optimistic as you are.) otherwise, we are on the same boat.

I'd consider myself a realist, not a pessimist like yourself. Sadly, being this way makes you safe from failure. Luckily for us it also stops you from gaining from success as well Smiley

I heard somebody say
   Burn baby burn
Disco inferno 0 00  
   Burn baby burn
Burn that motha down 'yall

(Taking dumb risks doesn't magically avail you of a chance at reward.  Some dumb risks are simply dumb risks -- step out in front of speeding trains all you want, it won't make you a billionaire, girlfriend Smiley)
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September 05, 2013, 09:02:41 PM
 #8555

As fr as the pre-order model is concerned, there is nothing wrong with the model. The problem is the abuse of the pre-order model by some actors (ahem) in the bitcoin space.   I remember someone posting about how they saw an option to "pre-order" an Amazon kindle paperwhite and freaked out for a second.

But like I said, KnC is offering refunds at any point in time, and they are allowing people to pay with credit cards.  That's low risk for the customer.  

In fact, it's actually high-risk for KnC because people can order miners, get them and then do charge backs claiming they never got their system, or their CC was stolen, or for that matter  order with a stolen CC or whatever while mining away with ∞% ROI.  I would be... hesitant to go that rout.

I'm sure that it has been discussed before, but I really don't want to go through 400+ pages to find my answer. My question is about the pre-installed cgminer, more exactly, will it also have the "chosen" pool details already on it? Asking cause I've noticed those fields on the knc website where you can enter your pool of option, worker and so on. Or is that part of the knc website intended for customers that chose knc hosting for the miners? Also, is there a problem if 2 or more miners would mine under the same "worker"?

KNC will test your unit with those credentials.  So they will be installed at the factory before they send it to you.

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September 05, 2013, 09:23:28 PM
 #8556

The pre-order model flat out sucks for investors. At best it's a zero interest loan with the purchased gear as collateral. The gear that hasn't been built yet mind you. Yes knc is offering refunds and I wouldn't even have given them a second look otherwise, but we need to move beyond this ridiculous sales model. Just because you can get a refund doesn't mean you don't have losses. Those that are ordering are plainly interested in BTC and as such have numerous investment opportunities. When knc announced their plans to develop this hardware those that invested made their choice. Whether it was the right choice or not remains to be seen, but if they paid with BTC at that time then they're already way behind because they locked in an exchange rate that was most likely lower than it is now. If they paid with fiat then they likely could've purchased BTC directly and been better off. Again, nothing against knc as they've acted in good faith thus far, I'm just disappointed that they've not helped to move us beyond this pre-order model and it's lopsided share of the risks heaped upon investors.

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September 05, 2013, 09:32:05 PM
 #8557

as soon as you can buy asics from the shelf there wont be any profit anymore to gather

people are willing to pay to high prices for those asics regarding the future difficulty and that leads to overpriced asic hardware

if you are lucky you will make marginal profits like 5% a year

no preorder = no whining = no gain

edit: investomers is a good term cause its exactly what we are doing. we are basically funding a startup. usually you arent able to do so as a small investor cause its the job of big venture capital firms, but we are in a special situation as bitcoin far from being established and the usual partners like banks and venture capital stay away as soon as they hear "bitcoin". so THATS the reason we are allowed to gather good profits as investomers.
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September 05, 2013, 09:43:57 PM
 #8558

Guys I've never expected to see a chip until 2nd/3rd week of September earliest. They will literally be testing the chip as soon as they have it packaged and sent to them, they have always known the date they will receive it, from the date they settled the NRE with the fab. They will go straight into production from there. I anticipate early 20's this month for chip info. I got that impression from the openday. I will be worried if I still hear no chip info around 27th. I'm not bothered about a bet that ends on the 1st of October, I'm bothered if I see no chip by the 1st of October. That's the point I'll be twitchy and concerned, if you're feeling like that now you clearly have not read anything about what I wrote or what they have written. It's always been end of September in my mind and i'm cool as a cucumber currently. The fact that Scandanavia's largest bank has partnered with them is massive news, SEB aren't about to be made fools of, and will have ultra stringent criteria, so all's gravy in my mind. Whether the chip performs as anticipated, well that's down to margins upon margins, that said this is is the only pessimistic company in the race. True scientists and engineers are, until they have statistically significant data, the rest of the playing field are hyping simulated data and best case scenarios, that's not science, that's marketing, and unachievable.

My background is in science, engineering, finance and adland. I can tell fact from fiction. You don't need to believe me, just know I'm very content. Make your own minds up, but ffs at least read up so we're singing from the same hymn sheet.


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September 05, 2013, 09:46:58 PM
 #8559

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions.
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September 05, 2013, 09:47:31 PM
 #8560

as soon as you can buy asics from the shelf there wont be any profit anymore to gather

people are willing to pay to high prices for those asics regarding the future difficulty and that leads to overpriced asic hardware

if you are lucky you will make marginal profits like 5% a year

no preorder = no whining = no gain

edit: investomers is a good term cause its exactly what we are doing. we are basically funding a startup. usually you arent able to do so as a small investor cause its the job of big venture capital firms, but we are in a special situation as bitcoin far from being established and the usual partners like banks and venture capital stay away as soon as they hear "bitcoin". so THATS the reason we are allowed to gather good profits as investomers.

We'll get there anyway, the market will always seek equilibrium. Mining will eventually be only marginally profitable just as it has been in the past. The reason in hand gear commands a premium is because there's historically been a tightly restricted supply and lots of pent up demand due to non-performance by pre-order vendors. That is changing as more and more pre-order gear is introduced to the secondary market and more vendors emerge.

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