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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3008458 times)
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September 08, 2013, 09:09:13 AM
 #8801

Which leads back to my original question: Should I run two miners on one psu?

yes, technically you can. but as you mentioned, it is definitely safer to buy new PSUs for each miner. just because, half day of non-mining because of faulty PSU will cost much then new PSU.) I will buy something from enermax, at least with gold certification but considering platinum now.)
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September 08, 2013, 09:20:06 AM
 #8802

September 8th, is that all? Man, October can't come quick enough!

Smiley

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September 08, 2013, 09:21:02 AM
 #8803

Which leads back to my original question: Should I run two miners on one psu?

yes, technically you can. but as you mentioned, it is definitely safer to buy new PSUs for each miner. just because, half day of non-mining because of faulty PSU will cost much then new PSU.) I will buy something from enermax, at least with gold certification but considering platinum now.)

Get whatever you feel safest with. Don't cut corners. Solid PSU's can be re-sold, or re-used at a later date. Killing your unit by cutting corners will only mean you may loose out in the long run.

Also is you are running one PSU for both, and the PSU fails, that's both units out of action till the situation is resolved.

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September 08, 2013, 09:26:51 AM
 #8804

Which leads back to my original question: Should I run two miners on one psu?

yes, technically you can. but as you mentioned, it is definitely safer to buy new PSUs for each miner. just because, half day of non-mining because of faulty PSU will cost much then new PSU.) I will buy something from enermax, at least with gold certification but considering platinum now.)

Get whatever you feel safest with. Don't cut corners. Solid PSU's can be re-sold, or re-used at a later date. Killing your unit by cutting corners will only mean you may loose out in the long run.

Also is you are running one PSU for both, and the PSU fails, that's both units out of action till the situation is resolved.

I wouldn't run the two on one PSU, good call there.

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September 08, 2013, 09:29:04 AM
 #8805

LEPA G1600-MA is the one you want to buy. It's cheaper than most and it has a peakpower of 1700W.
With 1 Jupiter it will run at around 40% max. power; OC it will still be around 50%. And you can power a second Saturn or another Jupiter depending on the final power consumption and still be very efficient. If it fails - well, I would imagine the local computer store near you will be happy to sell you a new one in a matter of minutes. Wink

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September 08, 2013, 10:44:39 AM
 #8806

Which leads back to my original question: Should I run two miners on one psu?

yes, technically you can. but as you mentioned, it is definitely safer to buy new PSUs for each miner. just because, half day of non-mining because of faulty PSU will cost much then new PSU.) I will buy something from enermax, at least with gold certification but considering platinum now.)

This year, but next year the half day of non-mining will cost almost nothing  Tongue
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September 08, 2013, 11:05:28 AM
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Ok, a clarification on the thermaltake psu. It's got EIGHT 8-pin pci-e power connectors on four cables, which is what I meant by four connectors. Each cable splits into a pair of 6+2 pci-e power connectors. It will definitely power two miners.

Which leads back to my original question: Should I run two miners on one psu? Is it safer to run a separate psu for each unit? I do have a spare 650W corsair psu, which I could use for my Saturn and save the Thermaltake for the Jupiter. This may not be as efficient at the wall, but it could prevent both miners from crashing if a single psu fails. How often does that really happen with a 1475W thermaltake gold psu, though? The geek in me says I should use the single PSU for both units. Not just for efficiency of electricity, it means having less power cords to deal with and less space taken up by external psu's.

80+ power supplies are most efficient at 50% load, if that helps with your decision.

I hate fan noise so the plan is to have the PS fans at low dB.
I have spent too many years on a raised floor surrounded by 9million fans,
and on weekends I hang around on turbo prop aircraft.
What am I doing mining if I hate fan noise??? Who knows?
Some of us are here because we're not all there!

I went with platinum and targeting/guessing at 50% based on KnC recommendations.
I expect the PS's will far outlive the miners so it is not a waste.
I also went with twice as many Saturns instead of Hoopiters.
It is more expensive but more flexible IMneverHO.
I'll have room and power for gen2 modules if they materialize.
Plus they will run cooler. I might adjust the 4 module ductage if it is installed in 2 module units.

As mentioned above, ppl with UPS's surf through 'the beginning' of outages.
Luckily I have spare 1500VA's with new battery, prolly good for 5-10 minutes. lol

Don't forget about air filters!
I use furnace filter material for my PC's.
Huge filter so it can get a bit dirty and still have good airflow.
Clean is cooler Smiley

I'm thinking of making a duct for 20" box fans instead of the case fans.
A 20x20 furnace filter fits nicely on the input side.
My goal is huge air and lower noise with easy to replace inexpensive filters.
This will also remove a few watts from the rigs.
I point one at my PC's when I don't want to run the AC.
I also have my equipment on 2'x4' shelving with acoustic ceiling tiles under and around the equipment.
(tape or paint the edges else they are a major source of lint/dustage)
This helps lower vibration and noise.

My decorating motif is 'industrial', lol

Some people pimp their rigs with lighted fans, etc., not me!
Everything has too many useless LED's nowadays, fuck that noise.



Soon! Smiley

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September 08, 2013, 12:15:56 PM
 #8808

And on the KNC forum, some industiral design professor got his students to test the airflow of the case design. His thoughts:

"I just put a team on this new setup and ran tests it looks like it has 3 high pressure areas that disrupt airflow
so far it looks lie you will need to use 3 fans in the front mount the controller on end and move the two ASIC closer to the front.

this will allow more cool air in and give a bit longer run for the airflow channel to minimize the high presser buildup (any high presser = hot spots )"

http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/590-case-revision

Is anyone interested in or planning in building their own case, where the airflow is optimised? I guess the above is a good start  Wink

I am definitely planning on either modifying the case or building a new one, I do not like what they have done with that layout, (though I do not particularly care. Please do not bother to try and fix this KNC, just worry about the chips, and ship as soon as possible)


I'm not really gonna start anything until my Jupiter arrives, but here are some initial thoughts:

 - Put an additional fan on those heatsinks for push-pull action. - In my experience with those kind of heatsinks this is usually good for 2-3 C reduction in temps.

 - Aim the fans directly towards the case exhaust. - Still can't think of an easy way to do this with the current case. Someone already mentioned turning the heatsinks 90 degrees and blowing out the sides. Maybe this would be good, but I prefer linear airflow, It's tough to know what's really going on inside the case and sometimes you will create dead zones where the heat just pools up and does not escape.

 - Keep the PSU external - This alone has dropped the temps in my avalon by 4-5 degrees, less constricted airflow is a good thing.

 - - - come to think of it, I think tolip_wen had the right idea by ordering Saturns. It's a really huge case for just 2 hashing units, but it's a much cleaner design.

Very interested to see what others will come up with for alternate case design.

(*edit- I would actually prefer if KNC would just ship me the controller board and the hashing units individually packaged. They can keep the case. Less hassle for them (no need to assemble) less shipping cost probably, and less chance of damage while shipping. Does anyone know if they would offer this as an option?

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September 08, 2013, 12:26:25 PM
 #8809


I also need to purchase a UPS to protect my miners. I was thinking of something like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842106116

I like this, thanks!  Battery back up is pretty cool. I wander how well that works.  
I bought this PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171078
It was ~$50 cheaper when I got it.  I think we're driving up the price.

Edit:  APC makes some really good power protection products.  Problem is there are so many and I have no clue how to shop for one.  I may give them a call to see which one would be best for a Jupiter or two.  Also, no need for a battery back up now that I think of it.  If your power goes out, so does your internet.  With KNC products having internal mining software, how would this work?  Does it keep trying to connect to the internet without intervention?  I'm sure these questions can't be answered right away.  So I'm going to wait on this purchase.  Surge protectors are all we should need for now.

that's not right. If your power goes out but both your modem and router are on a UPS as well, why would your internet go out? I am mining with network devices backed by a UPS as well and I do not loose internet during a power outage. At least as long as the UPS can feed the beasts. You will need a beefy server-grade one like a SmartUPS.

Hope this helps,
   T
Well, in my experience/neighborhood, when my power goes out, so does the whole neighborhood and the internet.  I have Comcast and that's what happens, but I understand your point.

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September 08, 2013, 12:50:45 PM
 #8810

Quote
Well, in my experience/neighborhood, when my power goes out, so does the whole neighborhood and the internet.  I have Comcast and that's what happens, but I understand your point.

Just a question: why no hosting(knc or local)? All these extra costs & risks.
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September 08, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
 #8811

Keith from KNC says:

Quote
There has been a slight revision in our casing that we had neglected to previously explain.

The case has had an airflow improvement to ensure increased thermal efficiency.

We have ensured the hot air from the front two heatsinks is redirected, avoiding the rear chips, and is expelled from the casing by installing fins affixed to the upper casing section (despite appearing in the CAD as part of the lower section of casing). In turn this allows a sufficient amount of cool air exits to ensure a cooler operating environment for the rear heatsinks to operate comfortably.

http://forum.kncminer.com/filedata/fetch?photoid=591

What I don't understand is why they didn't make a wider case with all four modules side by side instead of trying to direct the air with baffles.

I agree with the linear idea but at least they started thinking about thermal airflow now.  I just wish they had started sooner like when I first mentioned it looking at the CAD pics.

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September 08, 2013, 01:50:52 PM
 #8812

Keith from KNC says:

Quote
There has been a slight revision in our casing that we had neglected to previously explain.

The case has had an airflow improvement to ensure increased thermal efficiency.

We have ensured the hot air from the front two heatsinks is redirected, avoiding the rear chips, and is expelled from the casing by installing fins affixed to the upper casing section (despite appearing in the CAD as part of the lower section of casing). In turn this allows a sufficient amount of cool air exits to ensure a cooler operating environment for the rear heatsinks to operate comfortably.

http://forum.kncminer.com/filedata/fetch?photoid=591

What I don't understand is why they didn't make a wider case with all four modules side by side instead of trying to direct the air with baffles.

I agree with the linear idea but at least they started thinking about thermal airflow now.  I just wish they had started sooner like when I first mentioned it looking at the CAD pics.

OK, just been thinking about this problem for a bit and my best idea so far is to use a "double-decker" design. 2 hashing units, side-by-side, with the other two sitting on top. Allows for a cube type case, allows 4 intake fans (or perhaps just one big box-fan) and a very simple, straight-through airflow. Might not fit in a standard rack but it's incredibly more efficient and clean design.

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September 08, 2013, 02:32:44 PM
 #8813

Don't fix what ain't broke.
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September 08, 2013, 02:39:05 PM
 #8814

Battery backup! Christ, something else I hadn't thought of. Although, I don't remember ever having a power outage in the few years we've been here, so hopefully I won't ever need battery.

Wasting of money for a miner. You wont recognize the loss of 5 mins not hashing  Cheesy

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September 08, 2013, 03:05:34 PM
 #8815

I am definitely planning on either modifying the case or building a new one, I do not like what they have done with that layout, (though I do not particularly care. Please do not bother to try and fix this KNC, just worry about the chips, and ship as soon as possible)


I'm not really gonna start anything until my Jupiter arrives, but here are some initial thoughts:

 - Put an additional fan on those heatsinks for push-pull action. - In my experience with those kind of heatsinks this is usually good for 2-3 C reduction in temps.

 - Aim the fans directly towards the case exhaust. - Still can't think of an easy way to do this with the current case. Someone already mentioned turning the heatsinks 90 degrees and blowing out the sides. Maybe this would be good, but I prefer linear airflow, It's tough to know what's really going on inside the case and sometimes you will create dead zones where the heat just pools up and does not escape.

 - Keep the PSU external - This alone has dropped the temps in my avalon by 4-5 degrees, less constricted airflow is a good thing.

 - - - come to think of it, I think tolip_wen had the right idea by ordering Saturns. It's a really huge case for just 2 hashing units, but it's a much cleaner design.

Very interested to see what others will come up with for alternate case design.

(*edit- I would actually prefer if KNC would just ship me the controller board and the hashing units individually packaged. They can keep the case. Less hassle for them (no need to assemble) less shipping cost probably, and less chance of damage while shipping. Does anyone know if they would offer this as an option?

Of course not, by all means modify the case. I want to run a MAME cabinet around mine, it's a great functional and aesthetically pleasing way to disguise the units housed at home instead of an ugly pointless server cab, but KnC aren't about to perform individual requests as they scale a production line to complete all orders in two weeks, that would be crazy, and no one here would be happy with such bespoke requests. We all just want our kit sooner, rather than later, boring brown paper surrounding bubble wrap and aluminium, not individually hand packaged for the odd request with pink bows and ribbons.

Their case is basic and does what it says on the tin. It's not for winning beauty contests. I'd forgive BFL a little for their aesthetic choice had they not royally screwed everything they possibly could with respect to power and heat, because BTC hadn't blown up at their point of ASIC conception, it was still a geeks wet dream and time wasn't a monster factor. After Cyprus it has been, which is why XCrowd's fake offering was laughable.

The fact BFL still place aesthetics over function is moronic. None of the competitors have any ASIC hardware experience - as in hardware aside, and supporting the chip, i.e. supplying power and controlling heat, which is why Hashfast and Cointerra will not reach their simulated performance claims. It's also why they are dumping chips over building products, it males their life easier and puts the onus on some other poor sod.

By all means they are welcome to surprise me, but what few products they will build will likely not survive in the long term if they aim to deliver on their simulated claims, again this is why you'd want rid of warranty, because that kind of heat will significantly reduce the stability and lifetime of the chip. Bold marketing claims and performance longevity do not go hand in hand.

KnC aim to under power their design and over deliver on their claims, sure you can push it if you want, but do that gently as with any product that runs 24/7, extreme power and heat kill chips.

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September 08, 2013, 03:34:14 PM
 #8816

I am definitely planning on either modifying the case or building a new one, I do not like what they have done with that layout, (though I do not particularly care. Please do not bother to try and fix this KNC, just worry about the chips, and ship as soon as possible)


I'm not really gonna start anything until my Jupiter arrives, but here are some initial thoughts:

 - Put an additional fan on those heatsinks for push-pull action. - In my experience with those kind of heatsinks this is usually good for 2-3 C reduction in temps.

 - Aim the fans directly towards the case exhaust. - Still can't think of an easy way to do this with the current case. Someone already mentioned turning the heatsinks 90 degrees and blowing out the sides. Maybe this would be good, but I prefer linear airflow, It's tough to know what's really going on inside the case and sometimes you will create dead zones where the heat just pools up and does not escape.

 - Keep the PSU external - This alone has dropped the temps in my avalon by 4-5 degrees, less constricted airflow is a good thing.

 - - - come to think of it, I think tolip_wen had the right idea by ordering Saturns. It's a really huge case for just 2 hashing units, but it's a much cleaner design.

Very interested to see what others will come up with for alternate case design.

(*edit- I would actually prefer if KNC would just ship me the controller board and the hashing units individually packaged. They can keep the case. Less hassle for them (no need to assemble) less shipping cost probably, and less chance of damage while shipping. Does anyone know if they would offer this as an option?

Of course not, by all means modify the case. I want to run a MAME cabinet around mine, it's a great functional and aesthetically pleasing way to disguise the units housed at home instead of an ugly pointless server cab, but KnC aren't about to perform individual requests as they scale a production line to complete all orders in two weeks, that would be crazy, and no one here would be happy with such bespoke requests. We all just want our kit sooner, rather than later, boring brown paper surrounding bubble wrap and aluminium, not individually hand packaged for the odd request with pink bows and ribbons.

Their case is basic and does what it says on the tin. It's not for winning beauty contests. I'd forgive BFL a little for their aesthetic choice had they not royally screwed everything they possibly could with respect to power and heat, because BTC hadn't blown up at their point of ASIC conception, it was still a geeks wet dream and time wasn't a monster factor. After Cyprus it has been, which is why XCrowd's fake offering was laughable.

The fact BFL still place aesthetics over function is moronic. None of the competitors have any ASIC hardware experience - as in hardware aside, and supporting the chip, i.e. supplying power and controlling heat, which is why Hashfast and Cointerra will not reach their simulated performance claims. It's also why they are dumping chips over building products, it males their life easier and puts the onus on some other poor sod.

By all means they are welcome to surprise me, but what few products they will build will likely not survive in the long term if they aim to deliver on their simulated claims, again this is why you'd want rid of warranty, because that kind of heat will significantly reduce the stability and lifetime of the chip. Bold marketing claims and performance longevity do not go hand in hand.

KnC aim to under power their design and over deliver on their claims, sure you can push it if you want, but do that gently as with any product that runs 24/7, extreme power and heat kill chips.

I think we have a bit of a communication disconnect going on here.

I do not want " individually hand packaged for the odd request with pink bows and ribbons."

I want them to simply ship me the boards (I can supply the pink bows and ribbons myself - thank you very much Wink


All I'm saying is that I think their case design is substandard, and I will likely be throwing it in the trash as soon as it arrives. Why go through the bother (and I think extra chance for damage while shipping of those chips or boards attached only to the base of the case with no support from the top or sides as it seems to be.)

Just put those boards into some well cushioned boxes and ship them. no need to assemble. If anything it would speed up shipping. They can just set the chips in the boards, test them for however long, then ship them.

do you get me now?

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September 08, 2013, 04:12:06 PM
 #8817

...
All I'm saying is that I think their case design is substandard, and I will likely be throwing it in the trash as soon as it arrives. Why go through the bother (and I think extra chance for damage while shipping of those chips or boards attached only to the base of the case with no support from the top or sides as it seems to be.)

Just put those boards into some well cushioned boxes and ship them. no need to assemble. If anything it would speed up shipping. They can just set the chips in the boards, test them for however long, then ship them.

do you get me now?

I've read your posts, here are a few cooling ideas:
  1. Squirrel cage fans:  These things are ideal for being ducted in tight spaces, the graphic cards folks love them.  I've also used them (as suction fans) on horizontal heatsinks -- the updraft design is not ideal, but not horrible either, and lets you route the exhaust very easily.
  2.  If you're stuck with the provided coolers, and are running the gear at home, with the cover off, consider rotating the front boards 180 degrees (actually, just swap the fans to the other side), so the fans are blowing out of the front & inhaling from the center.  You'd have to also flip the front case fans (if any), so they're blowing out.  Scrap (probably unbolt?) the new case divider baffles.
  3.  If the rates are going up as fast as they are now, it's important to have the absolute minimum of initial downtime, so simple fan-flips (and the push-pull fan arrangement you've mentioned) sounds like the way to fly Smiley
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September 08, 2013, 04:19:05 PM
 #8818

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September 08, 2013, 04:47:19 PM
 #8819


Hanau450? I don't get that Cheesy

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September 08, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
 #8820



I've read your posts, here are a few cooling ideas:
  1. Squirrel cage fans:  These things are ideal for being ducted in tight spaces, the graphic cards folks love them.  I've also used them (as suction fans) on horizontal heatsinks -- the updraft design is not ideal, but not horrible either, and lets you route the exhaust very easily.
  2.  If you're stuck with the provided coolers, and are running the gear at home, with the cover off, consider rotating the front boards 180 degrees (actually, just swap the fans to the other side), so the fans are blowing out of the front & inhaling from the center.  You'd have to also flip the front case fans (if any), so they're blowing out.  Scrap (probably unbolt?) the new case divider baffles.
  3.  If the rates are going up as fast as they are now, it's important to have the absolute minimum of initial downtime, so simple fan-flips (and the push-pull fan arrangement you've mentioned) sounds like the way to fly Smiley

Thanks crumbs. When you say "squirrel cage fans" I assume you mean the blower type fans like on the reference ATI GPU's?  I must agree these fans are awesome (I have some 7970's with this system and it is great)

Those would definitely work, but that seems a costly and time consuming solution, and as you mention, downtime is a big deal...

It's all pie in the sky right now until they actually deliver but thanks again for some good ideas!

(*edit*) - on second read, I would likely go with your option #2. remove the case , flip the fans on the first 2, and remove the front intake fans and position them above the gap in between the front and rear hashing units to supply fresh air.

"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
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