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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012004 times)
erk
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September 05, 2013, 09:48:53 PM
 #8561

The pre-order model flat out sucks for investors. At best it's a zero interest loan with the purchased gear as collateral. The gear that hasn't been built yet mind you. Yes knc is offering refunds and I wouldn't even have given them a second look otherwise, but we need to move beyond this ridiculous sales model. Just because you can get a refund doesn't mean you don't have losses. Those that are ordering are plainly interested in BTC and as such have numerous investment opportunities. When knc announced their plans to develop this hardware those that invested made their choice. Whether it was the right choice or not remains to be seen, but if they paid with BTC at that time then they're already way behind because they locked in an exchange rate that was most likely lower than it is now. If they paid with fiat then they likely could've purchased BTC directly and been better off. Again, nothing against knc as they've acted in good faith thus far, I'm just disappointed that they've not helped to move us beyond this pre-order model and it's lopsided share of the risks heaped upon investors.

The pre-order model is the kick start from hell, I hate it, too many ASIC chip makers already from this, killing the ROI for all. Most of the ASIC makers will eventually die as moore's law fails to keep up with the difficulty increases. Unless something changes, I see the future of ASIC miners as small backyard low overhead operations, the data center model will come and go quickly. Big farms wont be competitive as the cost of electricity, aircon, staff wages, space rental, kills the ROI, whilst the small backyarder with no-aircon still makes a profit and keeps the net alive.


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September 05, 2013, 09:56:44 PM
 #8562

The pre-order model flat out sucks for investors. At best it's a zero interest loan with the purchased gear as collateral.

No, it's an extremely high interest loan, with the interest being the difference in value between what you paid and the actual value of the gear. The collateral is the money you loaned them.

There is nothing wrong with credit.  Credit is how people pool their money to make things happen in a capitalist economy.
There is nothing wrong with it. Without credit, only rich people would be able to start businesses.

If you don't like it, you can move to a socialist Nordic country, like Sweeden... er... wait Grin

The problem with pre-orders is that they can be abused to sucker money from people who don't know what they're doing.  That's what BFL did.  That's what I think HashFast is doing.  But I don't think KnC is doing it.

Quote
The gear that hasn't been built yet mind you. Yes knc is offering refunds and I wouldn't even have given them a second look otherwise, but we need to move beyond this ridiculous sales model. Just because you can get a refund doesn't mean you don't have losses. Those that are ordering are plainly interested in BTC and as such have numerous investment opportunities.

Yeah dude you can cancel whenever you want.  You can cancel if you think the diff is going to be too high or you can cancel if you want to buy ActiveMining or IceDrill shares. You can cancel the day before they ship.  

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September 05, 2013, 10:02:18 PM
 #8563

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.
Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.

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September 05, 2013, 10:07:23 PM
 #8564

The problem with pre-orders is that they can be abused to sucker money from people who don't know what they're doing.  That's what BFL did.  That's what I think HashFast is doing.  But I don't think KnC is doing it.

...don't forget Avalon and their outright theft using the pre-order model.

Even *IF* the vendor in question acts honorably then there's still huge risks of delays and the investor gets to eat all those losses as well. When one pre-orders gear for delivery far into the future they're forced to speculate on the profitability of that gear if & when it ever arrives. Obviously some of knc's early investors couldn't possibly have done this with any accuracy due to predictably unpredictable events(new vendors emerging...etc). I personally find it difficult to accurately predict the profitability of gear I can buy for delivery even a few weeks into the future and it's getting worse now with more vendors entering the field.

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September 05, 2013, 10:09:16 PM
 #8565

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions.

Valid questions? Where were they?
We all know the schedule and that there won't be any working rigs planned for now so how the hell can there be any of the tests or pics or anything other than the info we've all seen already (including that article the troll rushed off to read that was linked in this thread long ago but obviously not read by someone keen on spreading negativity).

Like  through the keyhole, the clues are here, you just need to see them.
If pointing out that the time for a working rig hasn't come yet is being a fanboy that's fine with me...round these parts we call it literacy.
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September 05, 2013, 10:11:46 PM
 #8566

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions.

yes, +1. btw, if you deeply check this thread, is so easy to recognize members of this fan-boys KNC crew - they have answer for anything and you are always so pessimistic, troll or simply without reading skill. again and again, they still blindly advocate KNC without any argument or fact. my answers will be without any valid reaction from their side and once I will check this thread again, there will be 5 more useless pages..
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September 05, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
 #8567

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

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September 05, 2013, 10:14:10 PM
 #8568

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.
Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.


C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

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September 05, 2013, 10:15:03 PM
 #8569

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

KNC said they didn't need any help.  They modified CGMiner themselves.
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September 05, 2013, 10:16:00 PM
 #8570

Could this recent spike in the Hash Rate be KNC testing units??

Under promise over deliver EARLY?? or just my wishful thinking??

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

The spike was caused by Bitfury as others has said. KNC most likely will be using our pool information from our accounts when they test our units. Just monitor the forum for post from any of those Day 1 and 2 orders. They will be the first to see activity in their pools if KNC does this

So, is the implication that KnC will burn-in our miners using our BTC payout address and preferred pool?  That might work with Eligius given that no password is required but not Slush's.

No, you can enter a worker name and worker password, but they don't currently have a free-form URL field You have to pick from one of the options they give you.  Slush is on the list.

However, I would not use slush if I were you, you don't get paid fully unless a block is found while you are hashing with them for at least 10-20 minutes, and you don't get anything unless a block is found within 20m of you stopping hashing (and almost nothing if it's more then 5m after)

Go with a pool doing a PPLNS or PPS.  Eligius will give you the most interesting stats, but you don't have control over payouts.

A Czech buddy got screwed in family court.  So, what the heck, going with Slush makes me feel better.



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timmmers
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September 05, 2013, 10:16:21 PM
 #8571

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap?
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September 05, 2013, 10:19:10 PM
 #8572

hm... i guess it is too late & tense to expect love & peace in here.  Grin
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September 05, 2013, 10:20:38 PM
 #8573

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.
Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.


C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

..or use their heads and pay in flat which varies very little and removes that problem as a few others. Is there any benefit in paying for a pre-order miner in BTC at all? No protection, massive swings in exchange rates...two of the reasons it's hardly used mainstream never mind on stuff like this.
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September 05, 2013, 10:21:08 PM
 #8574

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap?
Oh - did they? Got a link to the post? I missed it.
I'm curious as to what their reply was - they never replied by email.

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September 05, 2013, 10:25:23 PM
 #8575

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap?
Oh - did they? Got a link to the post? I missed it.
I'm curious as to what their reply was - they never replied by email.


BURN.......

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September 05, 2013, 10:25:45 PM
 #8576

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap?
Oh - did they? Got a link to the post? I missed it.
I'm curious as to what their reply was - they never replied by email.

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-32
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September 05, 2013, 10:27:06 PM
 #8577

C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

..or use their heads and pay in flat which varies very little and removes that problem as a few others. Is there any benefit in paying for a pre-order miner in BTC at all? No protection, massive swings in exchange rates...two of the reasons it's hardly used mainstream never mind on stuff like this.

Why do we mine for Bitcoin again?  Can someone remind me please?  Because the above post makes it sound quite worthless!  Lol.
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September 05, 2013, 10:28:07 PM
 #8578

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap?
Oh - did they? Got a link to the post? I missed it.
I'm curious as to what their reply was - they never replied by email.

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-32

Interesting..  Kano they even thanked your for the help you did not know you gave them....

LMFAO....

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September 05, 2013, 10:28:40 PM
 #8579

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?      Roll Eyes Kiss Cry Undecided Roll Eyes Cry

Another question answered already. By KnC themselves. Posted on this thread too. Can you read? Or do you just pop by every now and then to stir up some pointless crap?
Oh - did they? Got a link to the post? I missed it.
I'm curious as to what their reply was - they never replied by email.

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-32

Quote
KnCMiner do have boards in our possession to use in the meantime for testing purposes, so having the controller boards printed with the phrase will not delay us in any way, but that design has now been optimised, The order has now been placed and we are very happy with the result.

Secondly with regards to CGminer, and it’s opensource protocol we’ve been able to configure our device unassisted and made a greater than 30% performance increase using the underlying code, for which we would like to thank both kano and ckolivas with their outstanding contribution to the community.

Next we wish to address the concerns surrounding why we have suggested power supplies capable of overcompensating for our promised maximum power consumption = 1.6 W/GH/s. Again, the answer lies within our motto of under-promising, and over-delivering, but this time we wish to extend the margins to yourselves and ensue you have enough power to allow for the additional hashrate our devices are certain to supply.

Finally we wish to confirm that yes we are still on track for our delivery towards the end of September.

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September 05, 2013, 10:30:48 PM
 #8580

C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

..or use their heads and pay in flat which varies very little and removes that problem as a few others. Is there any benefit in paying for a pre-order miner in BTC at all? No protection, massive swings in exchange rates...two of the reasons it's hardly used mainstream never mind on stuff like this.

Why do we mine for Bitcoin again?  Can someone remind me please?  Because the above post makes it sound quite worthless!  Lol.

I don't mine for Bitcoin to spank on pre-orders by untrustable unknown entities such as we have all seen in the ASIC game, I mine because I believe in the underlying concept of the currency's which I intend to exchange one day with parties I do trust. Pre-orders with BTC have consistently lead to abuse.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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