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Bitcoinorama
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September 15, 2013, 02:14:00 PM
Last edit: September 15, 2013, 02:25:30 PM by Bitcoinorama |
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To be honest that doesnt sound like september delivery to me. If it's not it'll be only by a day. 2 weeks from Fri 13th is 27th. That touches on a weekend though, unless they can deliver Sat, Mon is the 30th, 1st is the Tues. I hate any mention of two weeks now mind, it evokes a queasy reaction for anyone on this forum now, but then that's where we currently are at this moment in time lol.  |
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Bitcoinorama
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September 15, 2013, 02:15:01 PM |
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To be honest that doesnt sound like september delivery to me. Come on it is just two weeks... People paid for jupiters about 100 bitcoins with vat, when network speed was 180TH/s, now 1PH They will get back around 50% btc in next few months After knc 1 batch, network will achieve 4PH or more, so people from the end of october will get back 30% or less. November batch 2 pricing is not profitable at all. No they didn't they paid for a product priced in dollars, and most of the promised network for this period hasn't made it online. They are likely at this point in time to make back most of their money before the Nov shipment, and why would anyone choose to pay the VAT over setting up a small business and offsetting the hardware and electricity cost/hosting as part of that business? |
Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful BTC Address ---> 1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp |
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Bitcoinorama
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September 15, 2013, 02:32:56 PM |
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Why are you using a price of $10k that no one should be paying? Either they come from a country without a VAT requirement, or they should be able to claim it as well as the VAT in their elec costs back by simply registering as a business. As well as their phone line, broadband and any associated hardware they could deem a necessary business expense. Secondly why are you using calcs that rely on the network hashrates to infinitely double in size month on month? That scenario cannot feasibly occur. I'm all for constructive arguments, but please apply some logic. |
Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful BTC Address ---> 1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp |
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crumbs
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September 15, 2013, 02:33:14 PM |
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...
Come on it is just two weeks...
People paid for jupiters about 100 bitcoins with vat, when network speed was 180TH/s, now 1PH
They will get back around 50% btc in next few months
After knc 1 batch, network will achieve 4PH or more, so people from the end of october will get back 30% or less.
November batch 2 pricing is not profitable at all.
No they didn't they paid for a product priced in dollars, and most of the promised network for this period hasn't made it online. They are likely at this point in time to make back most of their money before the Nov shipment, and why would anyone choose to pay the VAT over setting up a small business and offsetting the hardware and electricity cost/hosting as part of that business? Everything's going online just as planned. Ghash.io *alone* is hashing at just a hair under what the *total network speed* was when Jupiters were ordered. The network speed is now a bit over 1PH, with difficulty rates being: 30 Day 122 % 60 Day 330 % 90 Day 516 % This is all happening with *just one* new player shipping -- Bitfury. I'm not even going to touch the "but i paid with fiat" argument -- it's been shot down enough. |
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CMMPro
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September 15, 2013, 02:36:57 PM |
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I don't think difficulty will keep going up, it has to plateau at some point soon.
Many of the hardware mfg are late, or not delivering or turning out to be scams.
Many of the mining companies were relying on this hardware to make money that isn't happening now.
By the time most of them do deliver it will be like delivering usb miners...totally uneconomical.
It doesn't matter who is delivering in Dec/Jan, unless their hardware is 10x more powerful and 1/10 the cost.
All that matters at this point is getting hardware and getting it as early as possible.
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Xialla
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/dev/null
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September 15, 2013, 02:46:10 PM |
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No they didn't they paid for a product priced in dollars
no. I paid over 85 BTC for Jupiter (with VAT and shipping) via BitPay. I also paid for PSU (220$). so now I have to mine at least 85 BTC to get my investment back + pay for electricity (0.25$/kW). do you think that I will get my BTC back and earn something, if I will start mining last day of September? You have got here answer for every question, so please answer this.) thanks. |
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plasmoske
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The realist
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September 15, 2013, 02:53:58 PM |
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No they didn't they paid for a product priced in dollars
no. I paid over 85 BTC for Jupiter (with VAT and shipping) via BitPay. I also paid for PSU (220$). so now I have to mine at least 85 BTC to get my investment back + pay for electricity (0.25$/kW). do you think that I will get my BTC back and earn something, if I will start mining last day of September? You have got here answer for every question, so please answer this.) thanks. Maybe. It's all a gamble really. |
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alfabitcoin
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September 15, 2013, 02:59:59 PM
Last edit: September 15, 2013, 03:13:57 PM by alfabitcoin |
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Why are you using a price of $10k that no one should be paying? Either they come from a country without a VAT requirement, or they should be able to claim it as well as the VAT in their elec costs back by simply registering as a business. As well as their phone line, broadband and any associated hardware they could deem a necessary business expense. Secondly why are you using calcs that rely on the network hashrates to infinitely double in size month on month? That scenario cannot feasibly occur. I'm all for constructive arguments, but please apply some logic. Yap, business deduct VAT (better to say pay it, then later deduct it from future vat obligations) but business has to pay income tax (my country 20%) and carry other expenses.There is room not to declare all the income, although harder in some country. I believe your income is (gross) when you sell minend btc and fiat goes to your bank account. All the expenses linked to that exchanged btc and mining is overall expenses. Of course, its different when somebody uses company registered on some other things and buy miner as their hardware asset. edit I'am acountant and tax expert. I did some inqury with my country tax agency (EU) and found out how mining business should make books legal and to comply with laws and regulations. |
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Puppet
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September 15, 2013, 03:07:54 PM |
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I don't think difficulty will keep going up, it has to plateau at some point soon. LOL."Soon" as in in when difficulty approaches 100 billion, no sooner: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=286126.msg3143855#msg3143855As long as difficulty is well below that point, the mining potential/market value of 28nm asics exceeds their variable production cost, and so one way or another, more will be produced and added to the network, limited only by how fast they can be produced and shipped. |
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The Avenger
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September 15, 2013, 03:33:46 PM |
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Did anyone made the joke about 'swedish' asic miners comes in parts and you have to build them yourself because it is 'cheaper' that way?
If they sell chips alone only, it could be done... Well, the joke is you still have to supply your own PSU. And not only that, you'll also need to supply your own power supply on switch since the miner won't do it itself, apparently. Wouldn't a power supply tester with an on/off button be a nice, clean version of this? e.g. http://dx.com/p/pc-computer-atx-power-supply-tester-with-on-off-switch-black-132273  |
"I am not The Avenger"
1AthxGvreWbkmtTXed6EQfjXMXXdSG7dD6
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soy
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Activity: 1428
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September 15, 2013, 03:37:57 PM |
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To be honest that doesnt sound like september delivery to me. Come on it is just two weeks... People paid for jupiters about 100 bitcoins with vat, when network speed was 180TH/s, now 1PH They will get back around 50% btc in next few months After knc 1 batch, network will achieve 4PH or more, so people from the end of october will get back 30% or less. November batch 2 pricing is not profitable at all. No they didn't they paid for a product priced in dollars, and most of the promised network for this period hasn't made it online. They are likely at this point in time to make back most of their money before the Nov shipment, and why would anyone choose to pay the VAT over setting up a small business and offsetting the hardware and electricity cost/hosting as part of that business? Not to hijack the thread but the VAT (value added tax is it?), is it applicable to US buyers? I thought not, but of course there's no reason to think the poster is from the US. |
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Ytterbium
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September 15, 2013, 03:44:11 PM |
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If they sell chips alone only, it could be done...
Well, the joke is you still have to supply your own PSU. And not only that, you'll also need to supply your own power supply on switch since the miner won't do it itself, apparently.  Oh please for the love of all that is holy just don't!!! The alternative:  Uh... just to be clear that's just some pic I found on the internet. I'm hoping KnC includes something in the box, they said they were looking for a solution. |
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soy
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September 15, 2013, 03:44:20 PM |
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I see the emotions rising with hashrate a few posts previous. Some days ago someone supposed that the large commercial farms would die off as they have payroll added to expenses. I don't see that lowering the hashrate. They go out of business, the owners take the miners home or auction them off, either way they'll be back online hashing.
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Ytterbium
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September 15, 2013, 03:47:49 PM |
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I see the emotions rising with hashrate a few posts previous. Some days ago someone supposed that the large commercial farms would die off as they have payroll added to expenses. I don't see that lowering the hashrate. They go out of business, the owners take the miners home or auction them off, either way they'll be back online hashing.
They would only need payroll to expand. Simply keeping the systems running would pretty much be free. I think we'll see something like the plateu we saw with GPU mining. Large operations that start soon will easily cover the initial investment in the short run, and in the long run be marginally profitable to operate. But, once you hit a certain threshold, it'll still be profitable to continue to mine, but it won't be profitable for new entrants to get started, or even for existing places to expand. |
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tgerring
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Hive/Ethereum
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September 15, 2013, 04:10:27 PM |
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Did anyone made the joke about 'swedish' asic miners comes in parts and you have to build them yourself because it is 'cheaper' that way?
If they sell chips alone only, it could be done... Well, the joke is you still have to supply your own PSU. And not only that, you'll also need to supply your own power supply on switch since the miner won't do it itself, apparently. Wouldn't a power supply tester with an on/off button be a nice, clean version of this? e.g. http://dx.com/p/pc-computer-atx-power-supply-tester-with-on-off-switch-black-132273 Nice suggestion and available for $5 on Amazon. Multi-use items = win |
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Anenome5
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September 15, 2013, 04:17:52 PM |
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There's an easy way to tell where the difficulty rate should end up depending on the current price of bitcoin needed to cover electricity costs. The "natural" position for the difficulty to come to a rest at, as we know, is at a place where the proceeds from mining is just over the cost of electricity needed to mine. So, look at the difficulty per month that corresponds to the current price of bitcoin and that's the upper limit of difficulty, realistically. So here I have a readout. 53 BTC is the cost of one Jupiter paid the first week when Bitcoin was $130, and hosting was another 22 BTC--75 total, but you have to remember you're not paying for electricity costs anymore so set that to zero, and 520 gh/s is the 30% improvement over 400 they mentioned (and that's probably still low).  A Jupiter, depending on local power costs, costs between $50 and $100 a month to run. So if the price of bitcoin is $125 as it is right now, then we can mine profitably until ~1 btc a month is generated. Which on that image is between April and May of next year, assuming it's close to right (which is questionable). But notice the difficulty on the left that corresponds to that mining amount: 7 billion difficulty. 7 billion is the upper limit of difficulty at a $125 price. Now there's several good reasons why the difficulty will -not- get to 7 billion with the price of bitcoin at $125. There's ROI to think about, the cost of hardware must be amortized in, which means the difficulty is actually very likely to level off at more around 2 billion or less. At 1 billion we're making 6 btc a month, at 2 billion it's 3 per month. Not bad. We will have long since achieved positive ROI. If the price of bitcoin remains at less than $200 next year, we will be cemented in place as the new mining kings. Because, having run the difficulty up to its natural place, there's not enough low-hanging rapid profit left for people to invest in miners. Too risky, not enough quick profit. We're going to ROI in a month and change. Anyone buying a miner in January might have to wait a year to ROI, if they ever can achieve it at all. Now, all bets are off if bitcoin runs up to $1,000 next year, and then everyone buying miners now will look like a genius, and here's the scary and hard to even think about part--we won't even mind making only a few tenths of a bitcoin per month at that point, because that will be a couple hundred dollars. And the mining game will start all over again March 2014, here we come. |
Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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nightengale
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September 15, 2013, 04:22:34 PM |
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I wish KnC could definitively tell us what the hashrate of the miners will be.
Based on the KnC forum comments about the chip timeframe, September isn't sounding as likely right now...
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rolling
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September 15, 2013, 04:24:33 PM |
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I wish KnC could definitively tell us what the hashrate of the miners will be.
Based on the KnC forum comments about the chip timeframe, September isn't sounding as likely right now...
As soon as they have chips in hand, I'm sure they will let us know. |
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