Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Biffa]

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

But KnC accepted us as private persons. My invoice is under my name, not under a business name. They breached their own terms right from the start.

You can be a sole trader.

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[Biffa]

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Need more?

Those are consumer directives, as already mentioned KnC sold B2B

[RoadStress]

Those are consumer directives, as already mentioned KnC sold B2B

How can they prove that they sold B2B if they sold to private persons? Where is the business involved?

[murraypaul]

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 May 1997 on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 20 December 1985 to protect the consumer in respect of contracts negotiated away from business premises (85/577/EEC)
DIRECTIVE 1999/44/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 25 May 1999 on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts

You explicitly contracted with KNC on the basis that you were operating as a business, not a consumer. You are therefore assumed to be outside the realm of consumer protection unless you can first convince a court to ignore that portion of your contract.

Need more?

Yes.

[RealMalatesta]

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Just read the remarks regarding the sentence of the European Court from May 3, 2007, regarding the case C-303/05 (Advocaten voor de Wereld VZW vs. Leden van de Ministerraad). Once there are several suits filed in several jurisdictions, you can ask for an arrest warrant for making sure that your assets will not be transferred by the involved persons. Furthermore, if there are several jurisdictions involved, it is likely that you can convince the DA in your jurisdiction that the legal proceedings be speed up, thus leading to a shortened procedure and the filing of an european arrest warrant. Purpose of such a warrant is that the case be carried out in your jurisdiction.

[Biffa]

Those are consumer directives, as already mentioned KnC sold B2B

How can they prove that they sold B2B if they sold to private persons? Where is the business involved?

When you place your order you have to tick the box that says " I have read and agree to the terms and conditions. Click here"

1. Agreement structure

1.1  These terms and conditions of sale shall apply to all sales and deliveries of products (the “Products”) from KnCMiner AB (“KnCMiner”) to the purchaser (the “Purchaser”). The terms and conditions of sale together with the order and the order confirmation (if any) are jointly referred to as the “Agreement”. Any conditions contrary to the content of these conditions, e.g. purchase terms or other terms attached to or referred to in the Purchaser’s order, shall only be applicable if such conditions have been approved in writing by an authorized signatory of KnCMiner.

1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

[RealMalatesta]

However: Legally speaking, they MUST transfer the funds within 30 days without ANY deduction. This is according to the laws in Europe, and they have to comply. If they transfer the money just one day later, you can file a lawsuit. ANY costs for this lawsuit will have to be paid by KnC for it was them who did not comply with the law.

Which laws?
(Remembering that you have contracted as a business)

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Directive 97/7/EC, Directive 85/577/EEC, Directive 1999/44/EC and Directive 93/13/EEC.

Directive 97/7/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 May 1997 on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 20 December 1985 to protect the consumer in respect of contracts negotiated away from business premises (85/577/EEC)
DIRECTIVE 1999/44/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 25 May 1999 on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees
COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts

You explicitly contracted with KNC on the basis that you were operating as a business, not a consumer. You are therefore assumed to be outside the realm of consumer protection unless you can first convince a court to ignore that portion of your contract.

Need more?

Yes.

In a first stage, I do not have to convince any court. I have to file a lawsuit. In Europe, you can do this basically with a simple letter sent to your local police station.

But you are right: They claim in their TandC that you have to make a business out of the miner. However, this is even better: So private persons can claim that they were in a state of "Eigenschaftsirrtum". Furthermore: If you want to set up a business as an individual, you still are protected as a consumer.

[murraypaul]

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Just read the remarks regarding the sentence of the European Court from May 3, 2007, regarding the case C-303/05 (Advocaten voor de Wereld VZW vs. Leden van de Ministerraad). Once there are several suits filed in several jurisdictions, you can ask for an arrest warrant for making sure that your assets will not be transferred by the involved persons. Furthermore, if there are several jurisdictions involved, it is likely that you can convince the DA in your jurisdiction that the legal proceedings be speed up, thus leading to a shortened procedure and the filing of an european arrest warrant. Purpose of such a warrant is that the case be carried out in your jurisdiction.

I can't read anything in that decision which remotely supports your position.
It affirms the legality of European Arrest Warrants.
Those are issued for criminal offences.
It says nothing about civil suits, suits filed in multiple jurisdictions, or the ability to issue a EAW for multiple civil suits.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_criminal_matters/l33167_en.htm

The framework decision defines "European arrest warrant" as any judicial decision issued by a Member State with a view to the arrest or surrender by another Member State of a requested person, for the purposes of:

- conducting a criminal prosecution;
- executing a custodial sentence;
- executing a detention order.

The warrant applies in the following cases:

- where a final sentence of imprisonment or a detention order has been imposed for a period of at least four months;
- for offences punishable by imprisonment or a detention order for a maximum period of at least one year.

What relevance does that have to KNC being late refunding your money?

[RoadStress]

1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

There must be some laws for B2B too. What if you can invoke that something happened and you aren't able to conduct a business with the Products? And since the Products (Neptunes) aren't shipped yet you aren't conducting any business right? You would if you had the products, but since you don't there is no business.

[murraypaul]

1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

There must be some laws for B2B too. What if you can invoke that something happened and you aren't able to conduct a business with the Products? And since the Products (Neptunes) aren't shipped yet you aren't conducting any business right? You would if you had the products, but since you don't there is no business.

If KNC violate the terms of your contract, you sue them in civil courts for damages.

[RealMalatesta]

In case they should transfer the money with any delay, I will certainly file a suit not only against the company, but also against the persons behind it. This will probably not help me to get my money, but the fact that I can file the suit in ANY European country and

Unless you can show cause otherwise, KNC have the right to be sued in their own country, just like any other defendant.

- if there are more than one suits filed - ask for an arrest of the responsible persons, it would come as a surprise to some of the KnC-crew-members that they all the sudden will not be able to travel anymore.

I'd love to see the 'European law' that you think says that if more than one lawsuit is filed against someone, you can have them arrested.
It certainly would come as a surprise to KNC.

Don't take legal advice from random strangers on the internet, people.

Just read the remarks regarding the sentence of the European Court from May 3, 2007, regarding the case C-303/05 (Advocaten voor de Wereld VZW vs. Leden van de Ministerraad). Once there are several suits filed in several jurisdictions, you can ask for an arrest warrant for making sure that your assets will not be transferred by the involved persons. Furthermore, if there are several jurisdictions involved, it is likely that you can convince the DA in your jurisdiction that the legal proceedings be speed up, thus leading to a shortened procedure and the filing of an european arrest warrant. Purpose of such a warrant is that the case be carried out in your jurisdiction.

I can't read anything in that decision which remotely supports your position.
It affirms the legality of European Arrest Warrants.
Those are issued for criminal offences.
It says nothing about civil suits, suits filed in multiple jurisdictions, or the ability to issue a EAW for multiple civil suits.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_criminal_matters/l33167_en.htm

The framework decision defines "European arrest warrant" as any judicial decision issued by a Member State with a view to the arrest or surrender by another Member State of a requested person, for the purposes of:

conducting a criminal prosecution;
executing a custodial sentence;
executing a detention order.
The warrant applies in the following cases:

where a final sentence of imprisonment or a detention order has been imposed for a period of at least four months;
for offences punishable by imprisonment or a detention order for a maximum period of at least one year.

What relevance does that have to KNC being late refunding your money?

If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.

[Collider]

1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

I know its a bitch but I think it does make a difference.

There must be some laws for B2B too. What if you can invoke that something happened and you aren't able to conduct a business with the Products? And since the Products (Neptunes) aren't shipped yet you aren't conducting any business right? You would if you had the products, but since you don't there is no business.

Yes, when you have a B2B contract, it is far easier to sue for damages resulting from late delivery.
HOWEVER KnC have delibaretely set a very big timeframe for delivery (Q1/Q2 14) as to protect them if they ship "late".

If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.

Is the acceptable time for a refund stated in their TOS? If not, you could sue them for fraud but they would likely return your money in the meantime, getting them off the hook.

[murraypaul]

In a first stage, I do not have to convince any court. I have to file a lawsuit.

No, you have to convince a court that they have jurisdiction to hear your lawsuit.
You have to apply to them to be allowed to serve your filing [on KNC] out of their jurisdiction.

In Europe, you can do this basically with a simple letter sent to your local police station.

At least in the UK, that is simply not true.
The police would have no interest in your civil complain against KNC, they investigate criminal offenses.

But you are right: They claim in their TandC that you have to make a business out of the miner. However, this is even better: So private persons can claim that they were in a state of "Eigenschaftsirrtum".

You can claim all you want, you still have to file a lawsuit, get agreement to serve out of state, and convince the court to accept jurisdiction.

Furthermore: If you want to set up a business as an individual, you still are protected as a consumer.

I don't think that is true.

[murraypaul]

If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.

No it isn't.
I really don't know how to say it any clearer than that.
Failing to meet a contractual obligation is a violation of the contract which can be sued for damages in civil courts. It isn't fraud, which is a criminal offence.
Fraud requires dishonesty. Simply being inefficient is not fraudulent.

[RealMalatesta]

In a first stage, I do not have to convince any court. I have to file a lawsuit.

No, you have to convince a court that they have jurisdiction to hear your lawsuit.
You have to apply to them to be allowed to serve your filing out of their jurisdiction.

In Europe, you can do this basically with a simple letter sent to your local police station.

At least in the UK, that is simply not true.
The police would have no interest in your civil complain against KNC, they investigate criminal offenses.

But you are right: They claim in their TandC that you have to make a business out of the miner. However, this is even better: So private persons can claim that they were in a state of "Eigenschaftsirrtum".

You can claim all you want, you still have to file a lawsuit, get agreement to serve out of state, and convince the court to accept jurisdiction.

Furthermore: If you want to set up a business as an individual, you still are protected as a consumer.

I don't think that is true.

In Austria, Germany and Switzerland, you don't have to go to a court. You go to the next police station, tell them what happened (best, you write it down and name the claims, cops don't like to much work). That's it. No court involved. Then it goes to the magistrate judge. Still no court involved. If you write your complaint well enough and back it up with evidence, it is up to him to decide what to do next. He can issue a request for an arrest warrant. Still no court involved. This all is for a criminal complaint, not a civil one.

And regarding the individual: You can set up a company without capital, i.e. use the miner as capital. As long as the miner is not delivered, the company is not existing, thus, you still are a private person protected by consumer laws. If you ask for a refund, you stop being a possible business, i.e. you are again a consumer who's assets are not sent back in time.

[RealMalatesta]

If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.

No it isn't.
I really don't know how to say it any clearer than that.
Failing to meet a contractual obligation is a violation of the contract which can be sued for damages in civil courts. It isn't fraud, which is a criminal offence.
Fraud requires dishonesty. Simply being inefficient is not fraudulent.

If they can prove that they are just inefficient - well. But if you file a lawsuit - let's say at the police station Urania in Zurich - and show them evidence that
a) you have paid
b) you asked for a refund
c) they agreed to refund
d) they haven't sent you the refund

chances are more than intact that the police will label it "fraud", too.

Britain may be different - I just do not know. But I do know how it works in Germany, in Austria and in Switzerland.

[Collider]

And regarding the individual: You can set up a company without capital, i.e. use the miner as capital. As long as the miner is not delivered, the company is not existing, thus, you still are a private person protected by consumer laws. If you ask for a refund, you stop being a possible business, i.e. you are again a consumer who's assets are not sent back in time.

Sadly, this doesn´t apply.
KnC TOS state that you "agree" to be a business and agree to a b2b contract.

It doens´t matter wether you actually run this as a business or not, you will be treated as such.

As to the fraud debate: as stated above it might be treated as fraud by relevant authorities.

However, i see this as irrelevant because in the meantime they will just refund you and get off the hook.

[murraypaul]

In Austria, Germany and Switzerland, you don't have to go to a court. You go to the next police station, tell them what happened (best, you write it down and name the claims, cops don't like to much work). That's it. No court involved. Then it goes to the magistrate judge. Still no court involved. If you write your complaint well enough and back it up with evidence, it is up to him to decide what to do next. He can issue a request for an arrest warrant. Still no court involved. This all is for a criminal complaint, not a civil one.

<Bangs head on wall>
Exactly.
For a criminal complaint.
You don't have a criminal complaint. No crime has been committed.

Perhaps it is a matter of language, as I think English is not your first language.
To sue someone, or to file a lawsuit, in English, means to file a civil complaint, with the courts.
You don't sue someone for a criminal issue, or file a lawsuit about it, as you said you just report them to the police.
You don't arrest someone (in general) for a civil complaint.

And regarding the individual: You can set up a company without capital, i.e. use the miner as capital. As long as the miner is not delivered, the company is not existing, thus, you still are a private person protected by consumer laws. If you ask for a refund, you stop being a possible business, i.e. you are again a consumer who's assets are not sent back in time.

Wow, that sentence contains so much incorrect information, I don't even know where to start.

[murraypaul]

If they are not refunding in time, you can file a lawsuit for fraud. This is a criminal offence which is needed for a European Arrest Warrant.

No it isn't.
I really don't know how to say it any clearer than that.
Failing to meet a contractual obligation is a violation of the contract which can be sued for damages in civil courts. It isn't fraud, which is a criminal offence.
Fraud requires dishonesty. Simply being inefficient is not fraudulent.

If they can prove that they are just inefficient - well. But if you file a lawsuit - let's say at the police station Urania in Zurich - and show them evidence that
a) you have paid
b) you asked for a refund
c) they agreed to refund
d) they haven't sent you the refund

chances are more than intact that the police will label it "fraud", too.

I think there is zero chance that the police will, without further investigation, conclude that KNC have acted fraudulently.

[RoadStress]

Is the acceptable time for a refund stated in their TOS? If not, you could sue them for fraud but they would likely return your money in the meantime, getting them off the hook.

Ok i can understand the delivery, but you should be able to claim damages by late refund right? I mean since you are entitled to a refund and they drag it for more than 1 month there must be a way to claim damages from that.