Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[bitserve]

Not much of a difference in terms of law.

Elwar build nothing, he was just a tenant.

That's like finding a houseboat on Airbnb... nobody is going to arrest a tourist for renting one in the US.

Try declaring sovereignty in a trailer on the mainland and see what happens.

It is a very powerful idea. Which makes it dangerous.

The thing is that you can't declare sovereignty inside another state/nation territory... Well, you can, but that's asking for BIG trouble. Which is somewhat understandable because in some way if you claim you are another (micronation) and are in the territory of a previously established one that would be interpreted as an invasion and an act of war.

Elwar was supposed to be outside of it and in international waters... and see what happened anyways....

It's a complex issue... but I am still shocked by the extreme overreaction of Thailand over what was a ridiculously small boating thingy in the middle of the nothingness.

[jbreher]

I’m not really interested in getting into a detailed analysis of Lightning with big blockers.  But even if Lightning was a total flop (and not saying that it will be - quite the opposite), there are other tools out there like Blockstream Liquid.

You realize Liqid is a permissioned quasi-sidechain, right?

Focusing only on scaling onchain is not good enough.

I keep hearing that. However, nobody ever wants to show their work as to why.

We must scale aggressively, which means multiple ways simultaneously.

Then why ignore the obvious big hitter?

Onchain in the short term with MAST and Schnorr sig aggregation, later flexcap blocks

Schnorr provides a small incremental improvement, yes. Why are they not yet implemented in the Reference Implementation?

Not merely LN but Eltoo Multi-party channels can onboard up to 4 million users per block, every 10 minutes(up to 576,000,000 users a day) .

Show me a block that has onboarded 4M users?

More handwaving about pie in the sky futures, while LN is fundamentally flawed. In at least five dimensions. And again, as whizbangery, it's a pretty sophisticated mechanism. Unfortunately, however, it brings useful value to only a very limited set of use cases.

But really, as said before, I am looking for cogent rebuttals to Rizun's FFFoLN. Next thing I shoudl look at?

[BitUsher]

But really, as said before, I am looking for cogent rebuttals to Rizun's FFFoLN. Next thing I shoudl look at?

You are not sincere , because I provided all the answers with links that went into detail with Rizun's concerns and you simply ignored them.

Seems you rather debate than learn or improve Bitcoin. Good luck with your altcoin.

[jbreher]

Hmm. That's an awful lot of stuff to dredge through. From a cursory glance, much of which I am already conversant with.

The links I provided go in detail and explain LN limitations and where the FUD exists for all points Rizun makes. One problem that exists is its easier to spread false rumors and misinformation than honestly discuss the nuanced and technical details of LN

Is that so? Do you disagree that -- for example -- friction at layer 1 leaks into layer 2? Or is that assertion an example what you are calling "false rumors and misinformation"?

[BitUsher]

Is that so? Do you disagree that -- for example -- friction at layer 1 leaks into layer 2? Or is that assertion an example what you are calling "false rumors and misinformation"?

If you bother to digest the answers I provided, you would know that of course L1 effects L2.

Don't believe me, research it yourself. Stop wasting both of our time if you can't even bother doing basic research with the answers I provided you which will likely be very difficult for you to comprehend because you are so brainwashed into hating Bitcoin.

[jbreher]

But really, as said before, I am looking for cogent rebuttals to Rizun's FFFoLN. Next thing I shoudl look at?

You are not sincere , because I provided all the answers with links that went into detail with Rizun's concerns and you simply ignored them.

Bullshit. You can't just point at the entire corpus of material written about LN, and tell me that these concise targeted assertions are disproven therein. Grab one and point me to what you believe is written that disproves it.

If you can, pretender.

[jbreher]

Is that so? Do you disagree that -- for example -- friction at layer 1 leaks into layer 2? Or is that assertion an example what you are calling "false rumors and misinformation"?

If you bother to digest the answers I provided you would know that of course L1 effects L2.

So why do you refer to that point as "false rumors and misinformation"? You contradict yourself.

[yefi]

It is certainly undeniable that the computing infrastructure we have today allows many more use cases than than of a generation ago (or even of a year ago). Accordingly, 'bloatware' as an argument is weaksauce. Yes, as processing power cost drives toward zero, it makes sense to spend more computing cycles for a more enjoyable experience. This I see as positive.

Maybe you're the outlier that wants to watch their porn in glorious Hercules compatible resolution on a monochrome screen at 3 frames per minute. I dunno. But you'd certainly be in the minority.

The problem is that as machines we're still running the Palaeo OS. Every day I wake in disgust at the bandwidth of my sensory inputs.

[BitUsher]

Bullshit. You can't just point at the entire corpus of material written about LN, and tell me that these concise targeted assertions are disproven therein. Grab one and point me to what you believe is written that disproves it.

If you can, pretender.

Sigh ... , lets start with the first link ....

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/85650/htlcs-dont-work-for-micropayments/85694#85694

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1G4xchDGcO37DJ2lPC_XYyZIUkJc2khnLrCaZXgvDN0U/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.g85f425098_0_195

which directly addresses one of Rizun's concerns with the dust limit expressed in the article "Visualizing HTLCs and the Lightning Network’s Dirty Little Secret"

Do we need to keep spoon feeding you so you can continue to stick your head in the sand?

[Biodom]

but I am still shocked by the extreme overreaction of Thailand over what was a ridiculously small boating thingy in the middle of the nothingness.

I thought so and still think that it was a overreaction.
The following hypothetical scenario occurred to me, though...

Imagine that once one structure is there, a shenzen factory starts mass producing such units and "stitch" them to each other, forming basically a colony near a country.
Later, they would "send" 100k people to live on those structures.
Then, how would they possibly deal with such development?

I don't think "independence" would work 13 miles away, unless some micronation actively encourages this.
Maybe some in Polynesia (more likely) and/or Caribbean (less likely).

Interesting story about chinese buying defunct ukranian aircraft carrier and rebuilding it.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/what-if-china-never-bought-ukraines-aircraft-carrier-and-rebuilt-it-32897
If there would be more for sale...then someone could make a 'seastead' in the middle of the Pacific.
IMHO, seasteading is a nonstarter when done in close proximity, as this case shows.

[BitUsher]

So why do you refer to that point as "false rumors and misinformation"? You contradict yourself.

You have a very hard time reading. I make it 100% clear that LN has limitations. Don't make a false dichotomy to insinuate this means everything Peter suggests is accurate or that he is not being hyperbolic. If you bothered reading the information I provided it goes into details what these limitations are and are not in an open matter. It isn't marketing fluff but an open and honest technical discussion of LN.

[Lambie Slayer]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-23/trump-and-twitters-jack-dorsey-hold-unannounced-meeting-oval-office

Trump and Jack discussing how to pump their BTC bags.

[bitserve]

Dispelling LN FUD from Rizun For others that care to research -

[...lazy wall'o'text...]

Hmm. That's an awful lot of stuff to dredge through. From a cursory glance, much of which I am already conversant with. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to list which of Rizun's FFFoLN are rebutted by which said articles you have provided?

For the record, the following is my restatement as best I concisely can of Rizun’s ‘Five Fundamental Flaws of LN’:

1) Lightning scales txs not users
2) Friction in layer 1 leaks into layer 2
3) Routing failures are inevitable
4) Much trapped liquidity in the system
5) Running a non-custodial wallet is more cumbersome than onchain

1) Not a "flaw". And not completely true. Yes, LN MOSTLY scales txs but in doing so it frees up space on the blockchain for more users. And that's how it was intended.

2) Yep, and at the same time the mere existence and usage of LN reduces friction on L1.

3) Maybe. Haven't researched into the subject in this early stage. How BIG is the issue CURRENTLY?

4) Trapped liquidity is bad? Anyway... when we reach, donno, maybe 1 million BTC "trapped" into LN we could talk about it. At the moment I only see around 1000BTC *IN TOTAL*.

5) Shouldn't be. Maybe current wallets need to improve. Non custodial LN wallets should be pretty much straightforward and almost transparent to the user.

[Paashaas]

Dispelling LN FUD from Rizun For others that care to research -

Rizun is not a chief scientist lol..this guy is on Rogers payroll shilling bigger blocks, he's trying hard to discredit LN which is all FUD.

Funny thing is that Jbreher rather listen to him than the actual engineers who's working on LN itself..lol.

When Bitcoin SV has been experiencing new problems due to 6 consecutive orphan blocks, not even a singel word from Jbreher.

Like i said before; just tunnel vision big blocks without understanding the consequences.

[Phil_S]

Not much of a difference in terms of law.

Elwar build nothing, he was just a tenant.

That's like finding a houseboat on Airbnb... nobody is going to arrest a tourist for renting one in the US.

Try declaring sovereignty in a trailer on the mainland and see what happens.

It is a very powerful idea. Which makes it dangerous.

Nothing will happen. Declaring anything is just words, and words are protected by the First Amendment.

Actions matter, like if someone would start breaking laws, and stops paying taxes, such actions will invite trouble.

[HairyMaclairy]

I’m not really interested in getting into a detailed analysis of Lightning with big blockers.  But even if Lightning was a total flop (and not saying that it will be - quite the opposite), there are other tools out there like Blockstream Liquid.

You realize Liqid is a permissioned quasi-sidechain, right?

Yes I do realize.  I don’t care if a trusted third party controls my daily coffee purchase.

If I care, then I can make an L1 transfer. 

[bitserve]

but I am still shocked by the extreme overreaction of Thailand over what was a ridiculously small boating thingy in the middle of the nothingness.

I thought so and still think that it was a overreaction.
The following hypothetical scenario occurred to me, though...

Imagine that once one structure is there, a shenzen factory starts mass producing such units and "stitch" them to each other, forming basically a colony near a country.
Later, they would "send" 100k people to live on those structures.
Then, how would they possibly deal with such development?

I don't think "independence" would work 13 miles away, unless some micronation actively encourages this.
Maybe some in Polynesia (more likely) and/or Caribbean (less likely).

Interesting story about chinese buying defunct ukranian aircraft carrier and rebuilding it.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/what-if-china-never-bought-ukraines-aircraft-carrier-and-rebuilt-it-32897
If there would be more for sale...then someone could make a 'seastead' in the middle of the Pacific.
IMHO, seasteading is a nonstarter when done in close proximity, as this case shows.

It basically wouldn't work. Even if the neighbouring nation would somehow let the seasteads be there, they could always impose sanctions to commerce and travel such that the individuals living on them would NOT be allowed to enter the neighboring country nor anyone buy goods on it to sell them to the seasteaders. It would basically be a way of saying: You wanna be left alone? Fine, now you are really alone.

See what Thailand inmediately did there: Cancel Elwar tourist visa. Go against the local people and business involved in the making of the seastead, etc.... Death penalty was not even needed and completely overkill... that being said, I am not sure if the charge has been officially make, all newses just seem to imply it has only been "suggested" as a possibility (still ridiculous but a little less).

[HairyMaclairy]

Not much of a difference in terms of law.

Elwar build nothing, he was just a tenant.

That's like finding a houseboat on Airbnb... nobody is going to arrest a tourist for renting one in the US.

Try declaring sovereignty in a trailer on the mainland and see what happens.

It is a very powerful idea. Which makes it dangerous.

Nothing will happen. Declaring anything is just words, and words are protected by the First Amendment.

Actions matter, like if someone would start breaking laws, and stops paying taxes, such actions will invite trouble.

First Amendment does not mean freedom from consequences.  

If you say “I declare sovereignty” to your cat and continue to pay your taxes, then no, nothing will happen.  

But I don’t think that was what seasteads were about.

[BitUsher]

Bcash is just pathetic with their concern trolling of LN, when we openly discuss its limitations, or the constant rehashing old talking points from rogers past propaganda.

Bcash is so insecure and so centralized that they further shifted away from the whitepaper into an area where they no longer even use PoW to achieve consensus anymore but have reorg timestamps approved by a central dev team where PoW is merely to be used at the chain tip to order txs. Unlike BTC and the way Bitcoin was described in the whitepaper the BCH alt now uses weak subjectivity as the basis of determining consensus.

[HairyMaclairy]

The 2014/15 fractal continues to break down as the price breaks upwards.  Bullish.