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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26363265 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Retina
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April 24, 2019, 03:05:59 AM

BTC market cap dominance at 2019 high now. Its gonna reclaim 60 percent this year Smiley

The King will reclaim his glory.

Not only 60% I think 80%+ percent recovery in this year but it is only technically moved BTC transaction volume low but up and down high. I hope a great day every BTCBTC lover it is soon .
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BitUsher
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April 24, 2019, 03:13:51 AM


Dispelling LN FUD from Rizun For others that care to research -

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/85650/htlcs-dont-work-for-micropayments/85694#85694

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1G4xchDGcO37DJ2lPC_XYyZIUkJc2khnLrCaZXgvDN0U/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.g85f425098_0_195

https://stephanlivera.com/episode/68

https://medium.com/@unofficialbitcoinshow/how-lightning-network-maintains-bitcoins-value-proposition-d127da10077d

http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/boltathon/2019-04-06-alex-bosworth-major-limitations/

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctx-oAIhhSY&list=PLC_AgDAr0m6QhwqPDrqMfjX64oHGmwDMk&index=4


Quote
"A channel is 1 onchain UTXO but it represents the funds of 2 people. The 2 outputs are off-chain. If a block has 2k tx then each block can on-board 4k people. Multi-party channels could have more off-chain outputs: thousands. That would mean a block could on-board 4 million users" - alex bosworth

Channel Management (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlPIB6jt6ww

Channel Management (transcript) http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/chaincode-labs/2018-10-22-alex-bosworth-channel-management/

Lightning protocol, application design perspective (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R5DNUcCYRg

Lightning protocol, application design perspective (transcript) http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/chaincode-labs/2018-10-22-alex-bosworth-lightning-protocol/

Building Lightning applications (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhRIWc9zPjA

BTW, we know there are tradeoffs with lightning , as with any solution, the above links go into detail what these tradeoffs are. That is why we are scaling in multiple ways including onchain right now.
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April 24, 2019, 03:14:40 AM

I’m not really interested in getting into a detailed analysis of Lightning with big blockers.  But even if Lightning was a total flop (and not saying that it will be - quite the opposite), there are other tools out there like Blockstream Liquid.

You realize Liqid is a permissioned quasi-sidechain, right?
JayJuanGee
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April 24, 2019, 03:20:16 AM

One of y'all might wanna pick this up. Goose maybe?

https://frontrowmemorabilia.com/products/the-big-lebowski-cast-signed-movie-poster-27x41-in-wood-frame?variant=12445100703829

Signed by Jeff Bridges, John Goodman, Julianne Moore, Steve Buscemi, Sam Elliott, Peter Stormare, Tara Reid, John Turturro, the late Philip Seymour Hoffman, "Flea", Mark Pellegrino and writer/director team Joel and Ethan Coen

I reckon mic will be on that like JJG on walls of text Wink

This is what I would like to say to you, LFC:

BitUsher
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April 24, 2019, 03:22:03 AM
Merited by mindrust (3), JayJuanGee (1)

I’m not really interested in getting into a detailed analysis of Lightning with big blockers.  But even if Lightning was a total flop (and not saying that it will be - quite the opposite), there are other tools out there like Blockstream Liquid.

You realize Liqid is a permissioned quasi-sidechain, right?


Focusing only on scaling onchain is not good enough. We must scale aggressively, which means multiple ways simultaneously.

Onchain in the short term with MAST and Schnorr sig aggregation, later flexcap blocks

Not merely LN but Eltoo Multi-party channels can onboard up to 4 million users per block, every 10 minutes(up to 576,000,000 users a day) . Splicing and channel factories Boost integration into LN as well.

liquid sidechain is merely one of many solutions. There is RSK drivechain and BAKKT sidechain.

More entrants coming In the game like fidelty and TD Ameritrade for offchain



jbreher
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April 24, 2019, 03:22:14 AM

Dispelling LN FUD from Rizun For others that care to research -

[...lazy wall'o'text...]

Hmm. That's an awful lot of stuff to dredge through. From a cursory glance, much of which I am already conversant with. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to list which of Rizun's FFFoLN are rebutted by which said articles you have provided?

For the record, the following is my restatement as best I concisely can of Rizun’s ‘Five Fundamental Flaws of LN’:

1) Lightning scales txs not users
2) Friction in layer 1 leaks into layer 2
3) Routing failures are inevitable
4) Much trapped liquidity in the system
5) Running a non-custodial wallet is more cumbersome than onchain
BitUsher
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April 24, 2019, 03:27:04 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)


Hmm. That's an awful lot of stuff to dredge through. From a cursory glance, much of which I am already conversant with.

The links I provided go in detail and explain LN limitations and where the FUD exists for all points Rizun makes. One problem that exists is its easier to spread false rumors and misinformation than honestly discuss the nuanced and technical details of LN , especially when it is in active development and new solutions are being created all the time.

You need to digest all the information to address Rizun's concerns.

The bottom line is Bitcoin does not depend upon LN success and is scaling in many ways at the same time aggressively.
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April 24, 2019, 03:28:46 AM

Not much of a difference in terms of law.

Elwar build nothing, he was just a tenant.

That's like finding a houseboat on Airbnb... nobody is going to arrest a tourist for renting one in the US.



Try declaring sovereignty in a trailer on the mainland and see what happens.

It is a very powerful idea. Which makes it dangerous.

The thing is that you can't declare sovereignty inside another state/nation territory... Well, you can, but that's asking for BIG trouble. Which is somewhat understandable because in some way if you claim you are another (micronation) and are in the territory of a previously established one that would be interpreted as an invasion and an act of war.

Elwar was supposed to be outside of it and in international waters... and see what happened anyways....

It's a complex issue... but I am still shocked by the extreme overreaction of Thailand over what was a ridiculously small boating thingy in the middle of the nothingness.
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April 24, 2019, 03:28:53 AM

I’m not really interested in getting into a detailed analysis of Lightning with big blockers.  But even if Lightning was a total flop (and not saying that it will be - quite the opposite), there are other tools out there like Blockstream Liquid.

You realize Liqid is a permissioned quasi-sidechain, right?

Focusing only on scaling onchain is not good enough.

I keep hearing that. However, nobody ever wants to show their work as to why.

Quote
We must scale aggressively, which means multiple ways simultaneously.

Then why ignore the obvious big hitter?

Quote
Onchain in the short term with MAST and Schnorr sig aggregation, later flexcap blocks

Schnorr provides a small incremental improvement, yes. Why are they not yet implemented in the Reference Implementation?

Quote
Not merely LN but Eltoo Multi-party channels can onboard up to 4 million users per block, every 10 minutes(up to 576,000,000 users a day) .

Show me a block that has onboarded 4M users?

More handwaving about pie in the sky futures, while LN is fundamentally flawed. In at least five dimensions. And again, as whizbangery, it's a pretty sophisticated mechanism. Unfortunately, however, it brings useful value to only a very limited set of use cases.

But really, as said before, I am looking for cogent rebuttals to Rizun's FFFoLN. Next thing I shoudl look at?
BitUsher
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April 24, 2019, 03:31:33 AM

But really, as said before, I am looking for cogent rebuttals to Rizun's FFFoLN. Next thing I shoudl look at?

You are not sincere , because I provided all the answers with links that went into detail with Rizun's concerns and you simply ignored them.

Seems you rather debate than learn or improve Bitcoin. Good luck with your altcoin.
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April 24, 2019, 03:32:22 AM


Hmm. That's an awful lot of stuff to dredge through. From a cursory glance, much of which I am already conversant with.

The links I provided go in detail and explain LN limitations and where the FUD exists for all points Rizun makes. One problem that exists is its easier to spread false rumors and misinformation than honestly discuss the nuanced and technical details of LN

Is that so? Do you disagree that -- for example -- friction at layer 1 leaks into layer 2? Or is that assertion an example what you are calling "false rumors and misinformation"?
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April 24, 2019, 03:35:03 AM


Is that so? Do you disagree that -- for example -- friction at layer 1 leaks into layer 2? Or is that assertion an example what you are calling "false rumors and misinformation"?

If you bother to digest the answers I provided, you would know that of course L1 effects L2.

Don't believe me, research it yourself. Stop wasting both of our time if you can't even bother doing basic research with the answers I provided you which will likely be very difficult for you to comprehend because you are so brainwashed into hating Bitcoin.
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April 24, 2019, 03:35:21 AM

But really, as said before, I am looking for cogent rebuttals to Rizun's FFFoLN. Next thing I shoudl look at?

You are not sincere , because I provided all the answers with links that went into detail with Rizun's concerns and you simply ignored them.

Bullshit. You can't just point at the entire corpus of material written about LN, and tell me that these concise targeted assertions are disproven therein. Grab one and point me to what you believe is written that disproves it.

If you can, pretender.
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April 24, 2019, 03:36:27 AM


Is that so? Do you disagree that -- for example -- friction at layer 1 leaks into layer 2? Or is that assertion an example what you are calling "false rumors and misinformation"?

If you bother to digest the answers I provided you would know that of course L1 effects L2.

So why do you refer to that point as "false rumors and misinformation"? You contradict yourself.
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April 24, 2019, 03:39:06 AM

It is certainly undeniable that the computing infrastructure we have today allows many more use cases than than of a generation ago (or even of a year ago). Accordingly, 'bloatware' as an argument is weaksauce. Yes, as processing power cost drives toward zero, it makes sense to spend more computing cycles for a more enjoyable experience. This I see as positive.

Maybe you're the outlier that wants to watch their porn in glorious Hercules compatible resolution on a monochrome screen at 3 frames per minute. I dunno. But you'd certainly be in the minority.

The problem is that as machines we're still running the Palaeo OS. Every day I wake in disgust at the bandwidth of my sensory inputs.
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April 24, 2019, 03:39:18 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

Bullshit. You can't just point at the entire corpus of material written about LN, and tell me that these concise targeted assertions are disproven therein. Grab one and point me to what you believe is written that disproves it.

If you can, pretender.

Sigh ... , lets start with the first link ....

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/85650/htlcs-dont-work-for-micropayments/85694#85694

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1G4xchDGcO37DJ2lPC_XYyZIUkJc2khnLrCaZXgvDN0U/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.g85f425098_0_195

which directly addresses one of Rizun's concerns with the dust limit expressed in the article "Visualizing HTLCs and the Lightning Network’s Dirty Little Secret"

Do we need to keep spoon feeding you so you can continue to stick your head in the sand?


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April 24, 2019, 03:40:17 AM
Last edit: April 24, 2019, 03:52:17 AM by Biodom

but I am still shocked by the extreme overreaction of Thailand over what was a ridiculously small boating thingy in the middle of the nothingness.

I thought so and still think that it was a overreaction.
The following hypothetical scenario occurred to me, though...

Imagine that once one structure is there, a shenzen factory starts mass producing such units and "stitch" them to each other, forming basically a colony near a country.
Later, they would "send" 100k people to live on those structures.
Then, how would they possibly deal with such development?

I don't think "independence" would work 13 miles away, unless some micronation actively encourages this.
Maybe some in Polynesia (more likely) and/or Caribbean (less likely).

Interesting story about chinese buying defunct ukranian aircraft carrier and rebuilding it.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/what-if-china-never-bought-ukraines-aircraft-carrier-and-rebuilt-it-32897
If there would be more for sale...then someone could make a 'seastead' in the middle of the Pacific.
IMHO, seasteading is a nonstarter when done in close proximity, as this case shows.
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April 24, 2019, 03:41:33 AM

Quote
So why do you refer to that point as "false rumors and misinformation"? You contradict yourself.

You have a very hard time reading. I make it 100% clear that LN has limitations. Don't make a false dichotomy to insinuate this means everything Peter suggests is accurate or that he is not being hyperbolic. If you bothered reading the information I provided it goes into details what these limitations are and are not in an open matter. It isn't marketing fluff but an open and honest technical discussion of LN.
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April 24, 2019, 03:45:57 AM

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-23/trump-and-twitters-jack-dorsey-hold-unannounced-meeting-oval-office

Trump and Jack discussing how to pump their BTC bags.
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April 24, 2019, 03:51:59 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

Dispelling LN FUD from Rizun For others that care to research -

[...lazy wall'o'text...]

Hmm. That's an awful lot of stuff to dredge through. From a cursory glance, much of which I am already conversant with. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to list which of Rizun's FFFoLN are rebutted by which said articles you have provided?

For the record, the following is my restatement as best I concisely can of Rizun’s ‘Five Fundamental Flaws of LN’:

1) Lightning scales txs not users
2) Friction in layer 1 leaks into layer 2
3) Routing failures are inevitable
4) Much trapped liquidity in the system
5) Running a non-custodial wallet is more cumbersome than onchain

1) Not a "flaw". And not completely true. Yes, LN MOSTLY scales txs but in doing so it frees up space on the blockchain for more users. And that's how it was intended.

2) Yep, and at the same time the mere existence and usage of LN reduces friction on L1.

3) Maybe. Haven't researched into the subject in this early stage. How BIG is the issue CURRENTLY?

4) Trapped liquidity is bad? Anyway... when we reach, donno, maybe 1 million BTC "trapped" into LN we could talk about it. At the moment I only see around 1000BTC *IN TOTAL*.

5) Shouldn't be. Maybe current wallets need to improve. Non custodial LN wallets should be pretty much straightforward and almost transparent to the user.
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