MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[Lohoris]

To be fair, bitstamp did announced last year that all users need to be verified in order to withdraw fiat/btc and gave almost a month prior they start to do it.
You should check the facts prior making accusations and false claims

This is what we are talking about, I guess you misread our posts.

Their so-called "warning" was only "somewhere" on the site, and they did not bother to send an email warning.
So, if you had funds there and didn't notice the warning on the site, you had no way to know it.

Since they obviously are able to send emails, not doing so is absolutely inexcusable, and clear indication that they did not want their warning to be actually read by most users.

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[eztezt]

http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1zpm6h/mtgox_20140303_qa_in_english/

[V4Vendettas]

So this:

"Comprehensive Prohibition Order Judgment Announcement
Rehabilitation debtor MtGox Co., Ltd. received on February 28, 2014 a comprehensive
prohibition order from the Tokyo District Court. Following the instructions of the Court, the text
of the judgment is hereby published:
No forced execution or preliminary attachment or disposition shall be made by a
rehabilitation creditor on the basis of a rehabilitation debt with regard to the properties
of the rehabilitation debtor during the period until a decision shall be made with regard
to the application for commencement of civil rehabilitation."

TLDR: Black-magic lawstuff maybe a few % of creditors understand.


Means this: http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1zpm6h/mtgox_20140303_qa_in_english/  ??

which means?

Honestly wtf is going on ? anyone?

[raskul]

So this:

"Comprehensive Prohibition Order Judgment Announcement
Rehabilitation debtor MtGox Co., Ltd. received on February 28, 2014 a comprehensive
prohibition order from the Tokyo District Court. Following the instructions of the Court, the text
of the judgment is hereby published:
No forced execution or preliminary attachment or disposition shall be made by a
rehabilitation creditor on the basis of a rehabilitation debt with regard to the properties
of the rehabilitation debtor during the period until a decision shall be made with regard
to the application for commencement of civil rehabilitation."

TLDR: Black-magic lawstuff maybe a few % of creditors understand.


Means this: http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1zpm6h/mtgox_20140303_qa_in_english/  ??

which means?

Honestly wtf is going on ? anyone?

it's basically a temporary financial protection order. Common practice for companies who think they are going to get away scot-free.

[GTCG2]

Are you seriously suggesting that the Gox bank account had 270eur but didn't have 960eur at any one point in time?

More or less ...

They (mtgox) may have implemented a "queue system" on their side so that every day :
- they check the balance of the account (last day balance = 0 ; new balance = sum of incoming transfers of the day)
- they pick as many "waiting wires" from their queue system as they can, starting with the smaller and older ones, up to the point where they can no longer pay
- they send the money, the new balance is 0 again ...

"Sorry it's not our fault guys, the bank refuses to send more money than we have"

this... is exactly what happens when a company dives into insolvency, and yes, a perfectly feasible explanation.

Yes it makes perfect sense. But if insolvency is really involved, then they've been insolvent for a long time now. I know people used to wait for some SEPA withdrawals for months on end, even in its heyday.

Ok, well, my withdrawal was actually confirmed, so I guess I had some bad luck that Gox probably had no money left at the time to make the transfer take place. Although it seems that not all is lost yet, as i've read a few days ago that Gox plans to continue business in an attempt to pay its customers back, as stated here (copy paste from an article from coindesk.com):

“In order to increase repayments to our creditors, it is necessary to explore the possibility of having MtGox Co., Ltd. continue its business. This is why the civil rehabilitation procedure has been chosen, Rebuilding MtGox Co., Ltd under the supervision of the court in a legally organized procedure while giving proper explanations will not be for the sole benefit of the company but for that of the whole bitcoin community.

All efforts will now be made to restore the business and recover damages to repay debts to creditors. We hope for the understanding and cooperation of all.”

I guess it's all in the hands of the court, as they are waiting for a decision from it: http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1zpm6h/mtgox_20140303_qa_in_english/)

So I guess all we can do is wait and hope for the best?

[Luno]

Holding someone's money hostage is a big deal.

I left mtgox in June last year after it was obvious they were blatantly lying with their TwoWeeks^TM mantra, and were holding money hostage.

You knew this too and allowed $5k to get stuck on gox. Just because you like hammering gox you don't need to hammer bitstamp as well. Bitstamp have behaved honorably at all times.

Some of us tried to close accounts in early May, you were lucky, don't call other people stupid!!

[alfabitcoin]

To be fair, bitstamp did announced last year that all users need to be verified in order to withdraw fiat/btc and gave almost a month prior they start to do it.
You should check the facts prior making accusations and false claims

This is what we are talking about, I guess you misread our posts.

Their so-called "warning" was only "somewhere" on the site, and they did not bother to send an email warning.
So, if you had funds there and didn't notice the warning on the site, you had no way to know it.

Since they obviously are able to send emails, not doing so is absolutely inexcusable, and clear indication that they did not want their warning to be actually read by most users.

I guess you have missed my later post so i will repeat. It was not somewhere on their site, it was on their main page where it belong!! There is no other place where they could put announcement! Bitstamp did it right, you just avoid to see it.
Bitstamp announced it on their hompage on 4.th sep 2013. giving users the time till end of september to verify. So that is almost a month a notice of the news! Next, all users need to check regulary the site, its in their tos, i suggest to read it. And finaly, all users who had switched off news notifications did not get any email from bitstamp. I dont know what else bitstamp could!
Main site is primary for their business, its up to users to be informed and read related uses of service and news. Email notification can be switched off and with spam filter and phishing its unsafe and secundary for communications.
And bitstamp did not took the funds from the users who did not want to get verified - they did terminated their account and returned the funds according to their terms of service ( read termination).

[Lohoris]

I guess you have missed my later post so i will repeat. It was not somewhere on their site, it was on their main page where it belong!! There is no other place where they could put announcement! Bitstamp did it right, you just avoid to see it.

They did it wrong, they avoided to show it.

"The main page" is irrelevant since you can directly bookmark your account page, and if there is such an important announcement to be made, they could have easily added a warning on every page.

PLUS, if you didn't happen to login at all during this month, since you received no email, you had no way to know it.

This "it was in the homepage" excuse is quite very poor.

its up to users to be informed and read related uses of service and news.

No, no, no, no.
It's up to them to inform the users with every reasonable means available.
Or do you seriously suggest that for every single service you use anywhere, it's up to you to inform daily about possible news?
I've rarely read nonsense so big.

Email notification can be switched off and with spam filter and phishing its unsafe and secundary for communications.

Not their or our problems.
They could have sent them anyway.
It's up to the user to be able to receive it.

Email notification can be switched off and with And bitstamp did not took the funds from the users who did not want to get verified - they did terminated their account and returned the funds according to their terms of service ( read termination).

This, I did not know.
It would cast a whole new light in this subject.
Is there some link, somewhere, confirming it?

[alfabitcoin]

I guess you have missed my later post so i will repeat. It was not somewhere on their site, it was on their main page where it belong!! There is no other place where they could put announcement! Bitstamp did it right, you just avoid to see it.

They did it wrong, they avoided to show it.

"The main page" is irrelevant since you can directly bookmark your account page, and if there is such an important announcement to be made, they could have easily added a warning on every page.

PLUS, if you didn't happen to login at all during this month, since you received no email, you had no way to know it.

This "it was in the homepage" excuse is quite very poor.

its up to users to be informed and read related uses of service and news.

No, no, no, no.
It's up to them to inform the users with every reasonable means available.
Or do you seriously suggest that for every single service you use anywhere, it's up to you to inform daily about possible news?
I've rarely read nonsense so big.

Email notification can be switched off and with spam filter and phishing its unsafe and secundary for communications.

Not their or our problems.
They could have sent them anyway.
It's up to the user to be able to receive it.

Email notification can be switched off and with And bitstamp did not took the funds from the users who did not want to get verified - they did terminated their account and returned the funds according to their terms of service ( read termination).

This, I did not know.
It would cast a whole new light in this subject.
Is there some link, somewhere, confirming it?

Why you do not check and read terms of service yourself first and then respond? Its all there, read and news section while you are at it! You fail to understoon the issue and will blame this or that whenever it suite you. Its up to user to use the platform and read notifications and news - its a fact mentioned in their tos!
They set the terms so every user who want to use their service must read it and accept it. Announcement was on their hompage and news page for almost a month before they started to use it! You are only one to blame if you have missed it, i am sure majority seen it and acknowledge it.

So to say it short; go and read whole terms of use and news section, then go on your bitstamp acc settings and look for notifications.

https://www.bitstamp.net/news/
( read the announcement from 4th september 2013. ( that announcement were also under most recent update under main account page)

https://www.bitstamp.net/terms-of-use/
Read account termination and modifications of the terms, no strike that - read the whole thing!

They were very clear regarding email in terms of service - they do not want to use it as form of communication or to take responsibillity. All relevant issues are handled on bitstamp site platform!

I am sure majority saw it and went to be verified or withdrew their btc before end of september. If some user did not want to be verified or missed the announcment, bitstamp will follow thir terms of service under termination section and terminate user account and returned the currency into their bank account. Bitstamp must follow their terms of service and not deviate from them.
Users approach bitstamp service and both party must follow and apply terms of service!

If you still do not understand and want to pass baselles blame on bitstamp while they did all by the book and terms of service and aml policy, i do not care and wont loose time and energy to convince you.

[Lohoris]

Why you do not check and read terms of service yourself first and then respond?

Who cares about the TOS, I didn't say they did something illegal, I said they did something assy.

Most TOS say something like "we are god you are shit we do whatever we please" anyway, so it's a bit pointless to consider them.

[alfabitcoin]

Why you do not check and read terms of service yourself first and then respond?

Who cares about the TOS, I didn't say they did something illegal, I said they did something assy.

Most TOS say something like "we are god you are shit we do whatever we please" anyway, so it's a bit pointless to consider them.

Nope, they did not did anything assy. They had announcement for a month before they started to use it. You need to be blind not to see it or not to log for a month of their site. They did everithng by the book as per terms.
Announcement were under home, accountant and news page and a big notice if you tried to tranfer funds! And you try to convince everybody that they try to hide it - come on, give me a break!
And finaly, if afterwards said announcement somebody refused to get verified, bitstamp would terminate users account and return the currency. Nothing fishy about it.
Stop to cry about if you do not care of the terms and try to suggest they did something fishy or steal the funds.

[Lohoris]

They had announcement for a month before they started to use it.

They didn't bother to send an email, and they had no reason not to.
Unless they didn't want people to read that announcement.

This is getting nowhere, I'm out.

[alfabitcoin]

They had announcement for a month before they started to use it.

They didn't bother to send an email, and they had no reason not to.
Unless they didn't want people to read that announcement.

This is getting nowhere, I'm out.

You did not read that users do not get emails if they have switched off news notifications, do you? (Or you dismiss it on purpose?)

So they want to hide announcement because they did not bothered to send a email, but on another end they had that same announcement for a month on the home, account and news page beside big notice if user want to transfer funds! In addition users can have swirched off email notifications and bitstamp state they do not use email as they find it unsafe? Is that what you want to say, is that your argument? Really?
Further, they say really clear that they do not communicate via email what is in their TOS - they find it unsafe and can cause many problems? That was thir decision and I find it justified because phishing emails and anybody can pose as bitstamp. Email can not be used for official announcements!
Unless you suggest they want to have a problems with angry users and that they steal users funds?
I guess you are consipiricy thorist and you assume too much! Some people would always find something to bitch about, it does not matter how stupid it is!
I'am out too. I guess you won't accept any argument and just arguing for sake of arguing.

[itsunderstood]

^^^ pfft all these exchanges are so desirous of credibility.

But they don't do shit for BTC, except let people run casinos on the notion.  But hey, people love casinos --that stay up!

[Squeaker]

They had announcement for a month before they started to use it.

They didn't bother to send an email, and they had no reason not to.
Unless they didn't want people to read that announcement.

This is getting nowhere, I'm out.

You did not read that users do not get emails if they have switched off news notifications, do you? (Or you dismiss it on purpose?)

Um... yeah, that's not good enough... news notifications are for lesser news items, like, notification of expected downtime/upgrades... a promotion they may be running (half off fees for the month)... that kind of thing.

This isn't just a news item, this is a fundamental change to the business agreement between the exchange and the customer who's funds are held.

News notification setting or not, this type of a change, demands direct email notification irregardless of any news notification setting.

This wasn't just a news item.

=squeak=

[alfabitcoin]

They had announcement for a month before they started to use it.

They didn't bother to send an email, and they had no reason not to.
Unless they didn't want people to read that announcement.

This is getting nowhere, I'm out.

You did not read that users do not get emails if they have switched off news notifications, do you? (Or you dismiss it on purpose?)

Um... yeah, that's not good enough... news notifications are for lesser news items, like, notification of expected downtime/upgrades... a promotion they may be running (half off fees for the month)... that kind of thing.

This isn't just a news item, this is a fundamental change to the business agreement between the exchange and the customer who's funds are held.

News notification setting or not, this type of a change, demands direct email notification irregardless of any news notification setting.

This wasn't just a news item.

=squeak=

I'am sorry, but announcment of verification was not fundamental change in user agreemant. Bitstamp had from the start a policy of considering email as unsafe and not taking it as communication chanell. Email can be sent once and this announcement were almost a month on their site where only blind would fail to notice it!
And for the last time, even if somebody did failed to notice it after that month period and refused to accept new policy of verification, he/she would get their funds back as per termination section in the TOS!
Some service like bitstamp do not take email as communication chanel, deal with it! Go on thier site if you use them, how hard is that?
I found those who decline to be verified as fishy and if I had a exchange I would denie them a service as well!
Some people are never happy, I am sure if we had situation where email was sent, then soon some would find something else! This disscusion started first that bitstamp did not had any announcement, then that it was an facebook statement, then it was burried somewhere, that users lost their btc.... come on!
Its not like bitstamp took the funds for those who refused verification,its is almost 6 months old news, so can we drop this?

[itsunderstood]

^^^ Some users want email, they want it.  BUT, as explained above, the admins don't like that, because, when they get hacked, all those "waiting for email" users (dummies, really) are gonna get FAKE emails.

It is a threat vector, to always be sending emails, because that firehose can be stolen.  Having responsible and aware customers, is however, also a pipe dream.  So, email it is for now.  But, it is like 70/30 in favor of the scumbags at this point, in terms of balance of expectations.  The user's want holes for exploitation, because, convenience.  The admins want to patch the holes, because, their power can be usurped and used in a nanosecond --and it gets used directly against the users!

Good luck solving it, but I have taken threads to 2000+ pages, so if this thread causes no more Goxxings, then it is a worthy thread for exchange discussion of all kinds, imo.

[Nagle]

To be fair, bitstamp did announced last year that all users need to be verified in order to withdraw fiat/btc and gave almost a month prior they start to do it.

I'd argue that any financial institution which has higher requirements for withdrawal than for deposit is probably engaging in fraud.

If you open an account at a US brokerage or bank, all "verification" takes place before they let you deposit money. Thereafter, the only question on withdrawal is whether there's enough in the account and whether the withdrawer is the same as the depositor. Difficulties with withdrawals are generally considered a strong indication of a scam.

[alfabitcoin]

To be fair, bitstamp did announced last year that all users need to be verified in order to withdraw fiat/btc and gave almost a month prior they start to do it.

I'd argue that any financial institution which has higher requirements for withdrawal than for deposit is probably engaging in fraud.

If you open an account at a US brokerage or bank, all "verification" takes place before they let you deposit money. Thereafter, the only question on withdrawal is whether there's enough in the account and whether the withdrawer is the same as the depositor. Difficulties with withdrawals are generally considered a strong indication of a scam.

Geez, would you please take a time and read posts from that post onwards? (tldr, some posters wanted to say like bitstamp did not make any announcement regarding aml policy when that is false.)
Bitstamp after they stated to use aml policy as mandatory (30.th september) did not aloowed to transfer the funds fiat or bitcoin without submitting documents. If user denied it, bitstamp would return the fund to the users bank and terminated account!
They are not a bank or regulated and with all fuss about money loundering of course they started to enforce aml verification!

[itsunderstood]

[...]

money laundering of course

[...]

And here we must ask further questions, shan't we?

Laundering money is done by "legit front".  Like, if Michael Corleone takes over a gumball and pinball concern, he will not just be making gumball and pinball machines.  BUT, everyone knows that.

So, it is like a 100 year+ line of oddness, that due to Internet, is now being affected in ways nobody thought possible.