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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2035101 times)
KyrosKrane
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April 04, 2014, 08:37:31 AM
 #8181

Well, we finally broke the streak! ...

Quote
Pool Luck (7 days, 30 days, 90 days): 49.5% 88.2% 85.2%
... yeah.

Tips and donations: 1KyrosREGDkNLp1rMd9wfVwfkXYHTd6j5U  |  BTC P2Pool node: p2pool.kyros.info:9332
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jedimstr
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April 04, 2014, 11:35:30 AM
 #8182

Yay, time for another 5 day dry spell until the next one.  Maybe we'll break the record again.

jacob019
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April 05, 2014, 05:13:05 AM
 #8183

3 blocks in 20 hours  Grin

seems luck remembered we were owed a few

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jedimstr
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April 05, 2014, 05:24:33 AM
 #8184

3 blocks in 20 hours  Grin

seems luck remembered we were owed a few


Shhhh... LadyLuck may hear you.... And give us another bad streak out of spite.

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April 05, 2014, 09:58:07 AM
 #8185

3 blocks in 20 hours  Grin

seems luck remembered we were owed a few
2 blocks in 21 hrs
3 blocks in 107 hrs

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
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jacob019
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April 05, 2014, 03:06:42 PM
 #8186

3 blocks in 20 hours  Grin

seems luck remembered we were owed a few
2 blocks in 21 hrs
3 blocks in 107 hrs

Block #294121 - 2014-04-04 08:13:16
Block #294292 - 2014-04-05 03:35:13
Block #294304 - 2014-04-05 05:06:18
---3 blocks in 20 hours 53 minutes

Favorite coin: Kimocoin (KMC) - in-thread auctions for real world merchandise
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kano
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April 07, 2014, 08:34:13 AM
 #8187

3 blocks in 20 hours  Grin

seems luck remembered we were owed a few
2 blocks in 21 hrs
3 blocks in 107 hrs

Block #294121 - 2014-04-04 08:13:16
Block #294292 - 2014-04-05 03:35:13
Block #294304 - 2014-04-05 05:06:18
---3 blocks in 20 hours 53 minutes
2 blocks.

3 = fail at maths.

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
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jacob019
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April 07, 2014, 07:06:57 PM
 #8188

Sorry friend, seems we're both developers who use much more advanced math than addition, so I don't see how we could disagree on basic addition.
The following blocks were found by P2Pool at the specified time:
Block #294121 - 2014-04-04 08:13:16
Block #294292 - 2014-04-05 03:35:13
Block #294304 - 2014-04-05 05:06:18

Between the 4/4 08:13:00 and 4/5 05:06:59, that's a 21 hour 53 second period within which three blocks were found.  Given your work with cgminer, it seems you have some great programming skills, but here you chime in to tell me I'm wrong when it's clearly not the case.  Embarrassed to admit you're wrong?

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Krak
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April 07, 2014, 07:10:54 PM
 #8189

Sorry friend, seems we're both developers who use much more advanced math than addition, so I don't see how we could disagree on basic addition.
The following blocks were found by P2Pool at the specified time:
Block #294121 - 2014-04-04 08:13:16
Block #294292 - 2014-04-05 03:35:13
Block #294304 - 2014-04-05 05:06:18

Between the 4/4 08:13:00 and 4/5 05:06:59, that's a 21 hour 53 second period within which three blocks were found.  Given your work with cgminer, it seems you have some great programming skills, but here you chime in to tell me I'm wrong when it's clearly not the case.  Embarrassed to admit you're wrong?
I'm pretty sure it's because you're not including the time leading up to the first block. That needs to be taken into account.

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PatMan
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April 07, 2014, 07:16:21 PM
 #8190

Jacob - think about it dude......

I'll have what you're smoking...... Cheesy Cheesy

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
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smooth
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April 07, 2014, 07:23:06 PM
 #8191

Can you guys put your energy into finding blocks please.
jacob019
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April 07, 2014, 07:51:52 PM
 #8192

Three blocks were found in 21 hours.  I see the logic though, three rounds took longer.

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jonnybravo0311
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April 08, 2014, 12:27:19 PM
 #8193

Since you all are discussing blocks and how long it is taking to find them, perhaps I could get a little help on the payouts.  I understand p2pool has a higher variance than traditional pools.  I understand the ddos-resistant nature of the setup.  I believe in it - enough to have setup and run my own p2pool node on a Mac, and post a tutorial on how to do so in another forum.

Having written that, I'm wondering how the payouts are affected by long droughts between block finds, and hope someone can clarify things for me.  Let's take a couple of examples and walk through them.  For the sake of the discussion, we will assume that there is a constant 200GH/s miner, a difficulty that does not increase and an expected payout of 0.01BTC per day in all of the examples.

Example 1: Miner finds a valid share every 4 hours.  Pool finds a block every 24 hours.
This is the average example, so I would expect payout to be right on that 0.01BTC per day.  Is my understanding correct?

Example 2: Miner finds a valid share every 4 hours.  Pool finds a block every 96 hours.
In this example, the miner is still working and finding shares; however the pool has hit a string of bad luck and doesn't find a block for 4 days.  Does the miner get rewarded for having submitted shares successfully during the entire 96 hours, or will only a given window of those shares be counted?  In other words, when the pool finds the block, does the miner get paid for 4 days of work, or 1?  My understanding is that this is a bad luck case, and the miner would only get the expected 0.01BTC once the pool finds the block.  Is my understanding correct?

Example 3: Miner finds 4 invalid shares (orphans) per day.  Pool finds a block every 24 hours.
Here the miner's shares are beat getting into the share chain - at least that is what I assume orphaned means, if my understanding is wrong, then please define orphaned and dead shares as they relate to p2pool.  My understanding here is that the miner would not be paid out anything because all of the shares submitted are invalid.  Is this correct?

Example 4: Miner finds 4 valid shares a day for 3 days, but finds all invalid shares on the 4th day.  Pool finds block on the 5th day.
So, the miner has been chugging along for 4 days, happily submitting shares.  Unfortunately on the 4th day all of the submitted shares were invalid.  If things follow the pattern I've laid out in previous examples, then the miner doesn't get paid for his efforts because the only shares seen in the past 24 hours are invalid ones.  Is my understanding correct?

Example 5: Miner finds 8 valid shares in a day.  Pool finds 2 blocks a day.
Since the examples have been all doom and gloom up to this point, let's look at the other side of the coin - where lady luck shines on us a bit.  Here the miner is finding and submitting twice the expected amount of work and the pool is finding double the number of blocks.  In this case, I expect that the miner would be making 4 times the expected payout.  Twice as much because he's finding double the shares and twice as much again because the pool is finding 2 blocks in that 24 hour window.  Is this correct?

Thanks in advance to everyone for helping!

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
mdude77
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April 08, 2014, 10:23:31 PM
 #8194

Sharing the alert:


Get 0.9.1 immediately if you are using 0.9.0!!  See the alert on the top:

News: ♦♦ A bug in OpenSSL, used by Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoin Core, could allow your bitcoins to be stolen. Immediately updating Bitcoin Core to 0.9.1 is required in some cases, especially if you're using 0.9.0.

!!!!!

https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.1/

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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smooth
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April 08, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
 #8195

Sharing the alert:


Get 0.9.1 immediately if you are using 0.9.0!!  See the alert on the top:

News: ♦♦ A bug in OpenSSL, used by Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoin Core, could allow your bitcoins to be stolen. Immediately updating Bitcoin Core to 0.9.1 is required in some cases, especially if you're using 0.9.0.

!!!!!

https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.1/

M

Does p2pool itself use openssl?

smooth
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April 08, 2014, 10:42:01 PM
 #8196

Having written that, I'm wondering how the payouts are affected by long droughts between block finds, and hope someone can clarify things for me.

I'm really, really lazy when it comes to forum posts so I have to confess TLDR.

But let me say this, when we have droughts, nobody gets paid. End of story. Doesn't matter if you are a large miner, a small miner, or in between, you get nothing.

Obviously that is not good for variance.

Small miners who don't always have shares active on the (3 day) chain will have it a bit worse in relative terms (though much less bad in absolute terms, imagine having an electric bill of $1000/day and no blocks to show for it), but its bad for everyone.


roy7
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April 08, 2014, 11:22:30 PM
 #8197

Having written that, I'm wondering how the payouts are affected by long droughts between block finds, and hope someone can clarify things for me.

Hi jonnybravo0311. I will try to help. Smiley

Example 1: Miner finds a valid share every 4 hours.  Pool finds a block every 24 hours.
This is the average example, so I would expect payout to be right on that 0.01BTC per day.  Is my understanding correct?

Yes. BTC has a SPREAD of 3 and a maximum share chain of 3 days worth of shares. If block times get over 1 day on average, the share window will be smaller than SPREAD since we hit the 3 day cap, but your example fits perfectly.

Since shares are good for 3 days in your example, after mining 3 days if we're nailing the average like clockwork, you'd have 18 shares in the share chain (6 per day * 3 days). So the value of a share would be .01 BTC / 18 so that your one block per day pays out .01 to you.

Example 2: Miner finds a valid share every 4 hours.  Pool finds a block every 96 hours.
In this example, the miner is still working and finding shares; however the pool has hit a string of bad luck and doesn't find a block for 4 days.  Does the miner get rewarded for having submitted shares successfully during the entire 96 hours, or will only a given window of those shares be counted?  In other words, when the pool finds the block, does the miner get paid for 4 days of work, or 1?  My understanding is that this is a bad luck case, and the miner would only get the expected 0.01BTC once the pool finds the block.  Is my understanding correct?

So we're assuming the pool is supposed to find a block every 24 hours on average, but it is a really long round. Nothing really changes. You have 18 shares in the chain that total .01 of value, when this block is found you are paid .01. So you've made less income over these 4 days because of bad pool luck. I don't know what CDF a 4x longer than expect block is (it could be calculated but I'm doing my taxes and I'm tired), but keep in mind the 5% chance you hit a bad luck 95% CDF round is the same as the 5% chance you hit a 5% CDF round. Over a long enough period of time the average CDF of all blocks found should be 50%.

Example 3: Miner finds 4 invalid shares (orphans) per day.  Pool finds a block every 24 hours.
Here the miner's shares are beat getting into the share chain - at least that is what I assume orphaned means, if my understanding is wrong, then please define orphaned and dead shares as they relate to p2pool.  My understanding here is that the miner would not be paid out anything because all of the shares submitted are invalid.  Is this correct?

You have zero shares and so get paid nothing. Orphan rates should be somewhat similar across the p2pool networks, but a node that is super fast and efficient might have a lower orphan rate than some other poorly connected slow node. This gives an advantage to the better/faster nodes. The efficiency % in most interfaces is a way to try and measure that.

Example 4: Miner finds 4 valid shares a day for 3 days, but finds all invalid shares on the 4th day.  Pool finds block on the 5th day.
So, the miner has been chugging along for 4 days, happily submitting shares.  Unfortunately on the 4th day all of the submitted shares were invalid.  If things follow the pattern I've laid out in previous examples, then the miner doesn't get paid for his efforts because the only shares seen in the past 24 hours are invalid ones.  Is my understanding correct?

At the time the block is found you have 2 days of shares in the share chain (since day 3 was all orphans). That means 12 shares instead of 18 shares, giving you 2/3 of your normal payment. .00666666 instead of .01.

The max share chain length was increased to 3 days instead of 1 day at some point in the past, when the share chain was slowed down from 10 seconds to 30 seconds.

Example 5: Miner finds 8 valid shares in a day.  Pool finds 2 blocks a day.
Since the examples have been all doom and gloom up to this point, let's look at the other side of the coin - where lady luck shines on us a bit.  Here the miner is finding and submitting twice the expected amount of work and the pool is finding double the number of blocks.  In this case, I expect that the miner would be making 4 times the expected payout.  Twice as much because he's finding double the shares and twice as much again because the pool is finding 2 blocks in that 24 hour window.  Is this correct?

If you are supposed to find 6 shares/day at your hash rate but get lucky and find 8 instead, then you're making about 1/3 more than normal. Or .01333333 per block instead of .01. If the pool is supposed to be finding 1 block a day but is constantly lucky and finding 2 instead, then you are getting two .01333333 payments per day. In total making .02666666 vs .01 per day. Of course, you are equally likely to have bad luck in the opposite direction and given enough time it will average out to .01/day.

I hope 1- this helps, and 2- I didn't actually get any of this wrong. Smiley

RoyalMiningCo: Pools retired. Was fun!
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April 08, 2014, 11:34:36 PM
 #8198

Example 3: Miner finds 4 invalid shares (orphans) per day.  Pool finds a block every 24 hours.
Here the miner's shares are beat getting into the share chain - at least that is what I assume orphaned means, if my understanding is wrong, then please define orphaned and dead shares as they relate to p2pool.  My understanding here is that the miner would not be paid out anything because all of the shares submitted are invalid.  Is this correct?

You can simplify your thinking on this significantly. Orphan shares are virtually the same as not having found the share in the first place. What matters is your rate of finding valid shares (compared to the pool's rate of valid shares).

The only way in which orphan shares might be different from never finding the share at all is that they could actually find a bitcoin block, but that is so rare they can be ignored.

Your earnings are determined by your rate (and, in the short term, timing) of your VALID shares, plus the blocks found by the pool. That's all that matters.



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April 09, 2014, 12:43:08 AM
 #8199

Sharing the alert:


Get 0.9.1 immediately if you are using 0.9.0!!  See the alert on the top:

News: ♦♦ A bug in OpenSSL, used by Bitcoin-Qt/Bitcoin Core, could allow your bitcoins to be stolen. Immediately updating Bitcoin Core to 0.9.1 is required in some cases, especially if you're using 0.9.0.

!!!!!

https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.1/

M

Glad I stuck to v8.6.0.......Think I'll leave this alone as well for a while.

-- Smiley  Thank you for smoking  Smiley --  If you paid VAT to dogie for items you should read this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1018906.0
jonnybravo0311
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April 09, 2014, 01:04:23 AM
 #8200

smooth and roy7, thanks for taking the time and providing the explanation.  Just to make sure I've got everything correct, ultimately it works out to be:

Shares are counted in a rolling 3 day window.  Every block found during that time is paid out based upon how many valid shares a miner has contributed during that 3 day window.

So, to use a concrete example, I'm running an Antminer S1 @ 200GH/s on a local p2pool node.  I've had it setup and running for a week at this point.  I'll have to shut it down for a bit tonight to upgrade to 0.9.1, but that will take like 5 minutes tops.  During this week, p2pool has found 3 blocks, and I received payouts for each.  Now it's been nearly 4 days since a block was found.  When that block is found, assuming I continue on without interruption and I find about 6 shares a day, I'll get 18 shares worth of payment from that block, and from every block found until my rate of found shares goes down.

Again, thanks for taking the time and providing the explanation!

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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