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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2570545 times)
Yogafan00000
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December 19, 2013, 01:55:39 PM
 #7221

Is anyone seeing this? or is this just normal variance?
Yes, I also meet the similar condition (look at the previous page). The client 13.4 does not function properly and nobody here tempts to explain why. Do not use it.

Ok, I rolled back to my previous versions of p2pool and litecoin wallet.

Interestingly enough, I decided to do a wallet backup before the rollback.  Before I had a chance to backup, Litecoin wallet had crashed.  When I restarted, the wallet was ~26 hours out of sync.  When it resync'd, I only had mining payouts from my smaller pre-upgrade pool.  No rewards from the upgraded pool.

Before all of this, I was getting from 4-10 mining payouts per day on my larger pool.

Something appears hinky with the new versions of Litecoin and p2pool.

I'm happy to report mining rewards are appearing again after the rollback to the previous versions. Shares: 4 (0 orphan, 1 dead)

I'm figuring the upgrade cost me a 2 day's worth of Litecoins, which for me, is about 0.6LTC.

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Yogafan00000
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December 19, 2013, 02:18:38 PM
 #7222

Here is the list  Grin


My portion of the refund sent.

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December 19, 2013, 03:19:50 PM
 #7223

Do you recomment using p2pool as only "pool" ? I'm having troubles with downtimes for certain coins with other pools.

I have 1Mh/s with Scrypt (2 fast GPUs), is it wise to connect to p2pool only?



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Rainbot
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December 19, 2013, 08:05:00 PM
 #7224

Is there any graph of share minimum difficulty over time?  In theory, if larger miners started using lower difficulty shares, then the minimum share difficulty would increase.
No (to the theory)
Yes (to the theory)
Difficulty is based on the p2pool "hash rate" - which clearly you don't understand what that is.

The number of shares is targeted at one every 30 seconds.

If everyone used the minimum share difficulty, then it would be directly linked.

However, if a large miner uses low difficulty, he would generate lots of shares.  In order to help the pool, he sets his difficulty higher.

This means he gets fewer shares, but each share has a higher weight.

If that miner was 25% of the hashing power, and he contributed only 1% of the shares, then the pool would only generate 76% as many shares.

The difficulty algorithm would re-target and reduce the minimum difficulty.  This would push the share rate back to one every 30 seconds.

If lots of large miners set their difficulty target higher, then they put less load on the system and so the difficulty can be set lower to help miners with lower hash rates.  This helps more people enter the pool, and so, helps everyone.
No, coz if the large miner submits less share difficulty during one round, then they submit more share difficulty during some other round(s), which simply averages out.

The affect of a large miner using higher difficulty is to destabilise the share difficulty more - it doesn't affect the average.

The well known bitcoin term here is called ... variance. Read up about it Smiley

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December 19, 2013, 08:34:14 PM
 #7225

How many hours does it usually take the pool to pay out?



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Rainbot
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December 19, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
 #7226

How many hours does it usually take the pool to pay out?
About 1 millisecond.

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December 19, 2013, 08:50:48 PM
 #7227

If lots of large miners set their difficulty target higher, then they put less load on the system and so the difficulty can be set lower to help miners with lower hash rates.  This helps more people enter the pool, and so, helps everyone.
No, coz if the large miner submits less share difficulty during one round, then they submit more share difficulty during some other round(s), which simply averages out.
We are not talking about the lenght of the rounds here.
It's about the number of shares per minute.

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December 19, 2013, 09:04:40 PM
 #7228

No, coz if the large miner submits less share difficulty during one round, then they submit more share difficulty during some other round(s), which simply averages out.

The affect of a large miner using higher difficulty is to destabilise the share difficulty more - it doesn't affect the average.

I didn't claim it did.  What it does do is lower the minimum difficulty, which helps low has rate miners have reduced variance.

The total p2pool network power is around 100TH/s.  If shares are every 30 seconds, then each share represents 3000TH (3000 * 10^12 hashes).

If all shares were the same difficulty, then that would be the effective share difficulty, in average hashes.

If you have 10GH/s, it will take on average 3.47 days to get a share.

If half of the miners switch to 10X the minimum difficulty, then they need 30,000TH to get a share.  Since they have half of the mining power, they have 50TH/s.  This means that one of them gets a share every (30000 / 50) = 600 seconds = 10 minutes.  The rest of the pool has the standard difficulty, so they get a share every 60 seconds.

This means that in 10 minutes, the miners will find 1 + 10 = 11 shares.  This works out as one share every 54 seconds.

The system will then lower the minimum difficulty by around 50%.  Now a 10GH/s miner will get a share around twice as fast as before (but worth half as much).  This gives those miners lower variance and the same average returns.

Quote
The well known bitcoin term here is called ... variance. Read up about it Smiley

Yeah, I know.

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December 19, 2013, 09:54:14 PM
 #7229

No, coz if the large miner submits less share difficulty during one round, then they submit more share difficulty during some other round(s), which simply averages out.

The affect of a large miner using higher difficulty is to destabilise the share difficulty more - it doesn't affect the average.

I didn't claim it did.  What it does do is lower the minimum difficulty, which helps low has rate miners have reduced variance.

The total p2pool network power is around 100TH/s.  If shares are every 30 seconds, then each share represents 3000TH (3000 * 10^12 hashes).

If all shares were the same difficulty, then that would be the effective share difficulty, in average hashes.

If you have 10GH/s, it will take on average 3.47 days to get a share.

If half of the miners switch to 10X the minimum difficulty, then they need 30,000TH to get a share.  Since they have half of the mining power, they have 50TH/s.  This means that one of them gets a share every (30000 / 50) = 600 seconds = 10 minutes.  The rest of the pool has the standard difficulty, so they get a share every 60 seconds.

This means that in 10 minutes, the miners will find 1 + 10 = 11 shares.  This works out as one share every 54 seconds.

The system will then lower the minimum difficulty by around 50%.  Now a 10GH/s miner will get a share around twice as fast as before (but worth half as much).  This gives those miners lower variance and the same average returns.

Quote
The well known bitcoin term here is called ... variance. Read up about it Smiley

Yeah, I know.
No.

You are missing the issue of variance.

If the difficulty drops it will also go up. It averages out to the same share difficulty.

So statistically you still get the same number of shares over time.

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December 19, 2013, 11:07:27 PM
 #7230

How many hours does it usually take the pool to pay out?
About 1 millisecond.

Why did I not receive any then? (I am mining doge since 12 hours).



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December 19, 2013, 11:39:41 PM
 #7231

You are missing the issue of variance.
If the difficulty drops it will also go up. It averages out to the same share difficulty.
So statistically you still get the same number of shares over time.
If the big miners are sending shares with higher difficulty they would be sending less shares per minute.
The variance for the big miners would be higher.
The minimum p2pool difficulty would drop.
All miners using the minimum difficulty would be sending more shares.
Their variance would decrease.
The total p2pool hash rate would stay the same.
The average income of the miners would stay the same.

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December 19, 2013, 11:51:49 PM
 #7232

Why not state clearly in this thread that p2pool.org and p2pool.com are not affiliated with p2pool?

I added some clarification about p2pool.org to the first post. I think p2pool.com is pretty obviously not.

In other related news, using http://p2pool.info/ as the new homepage for P2Pool is on the horizon since I recently took up maintenance of it and as it's already well-known.
good, about time to handle with the guy @ p2pool.org

Can you help me? I've been mining into p2pool.org and did not get any coinage.



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December 20, 2013, 01:34:55 AM
 #7233

.......
The well known bitcoin term here is called ... variance. Read up about it Smiley

Yeah, I know.
No.

You are missing the issue of variance.

If the difficulty drops it will also go up. It averages out to the same share difficulty.

So statistically you still get the same number of shares over time.

kano, I think TierNolan is referring to the fact that some large miners can set their own difficulty much higher than the automatic amount set by the system. If I have that fact right, then this means that the average share difficulty is reduced for the remainder of miners.

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December 20, 2013, 02:48:57 AM
 #7234

.......
The well known bitcoin term here is called ... variance. Read up about it Smiley

Yeah, I know.
No.

You are missing the issue of variance.

If the difficulty drops it will also go up. It averages out to the same share difficulty.

So statistically you still get the same number of shares over time.

kano, I think TierNolan is referring to the fact that some large miners can set their own difficulty much higher than the automatic amount set by the system. If I have that fact right, then this means that the average share difficulty is reduced for the remainder of miners.
Unless there's some weird calculation in the p2pool code to push the base difficulty down, it doesn't matter if someone is submitting 'double' diff shares - they are just the same as submitting 2 'single' diff shares other than an increase in variance.

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December 20, 2013, 02:58:42 AM
 #7235

Unless there's some weird calculation in the p2pool code to push the base difficulty down

There is.

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December 20, 2013, 08:45:59 AM
 #7236

Unless there's some weird calculation in the p2pool code to push the base difficulty down

There is.

There is, but it doesnt' work very well. Here is my proposal to implement alternative function:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg3929150#msg3929150

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December 20, 2013, 12:05:32 PM
 #7237

There is, but it doesnt' work very well. Here is my proposal to implement alternative function:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg3929150#msg3929150

Each worker sets its own difficulty right?

So,

- adjust minimum difficulty per miner so that shares are received at most once every 60 minutes
- all workers to the same address count as a single miner for these purposes

I think there is at least one p2pool backed pool out there that supports smaller miners.  However, it works by setting the fee to 100% and has a separate process to handle payouts to miners.

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December 20, 2013, 12:59:29 PM
 #7238

Unless there's some weird calculation in the p2pool code to push the base difficulty down

There is.
Well if there is than the statement on the main p2pool page is wrong also:

Quote
P2Pool creates a new block chain in which the difficulty is adjusted so a new block is found every 1030 seconds.

I of course updated the 10 to 30.

That statement would be false if what people are implying here is true.

To make a share average every 30s, it must use the submitted 1diff share rate to attempt to make that happen.
There is no other way to do it.

So again ...

Quote
If the difficulty drops it will also go up. It averages out to the same share difficulty.

So statistically you still get the same number of shares over time.

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December 20, 2013, 01:41:37 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2013, 04:28:52 PM by twmz
 #7239

Unless there's some weird calculation in the p2pool code to push the base difficulty down

There is.
Well if there is than the statement on the main p2pool page is wrong also:

Quote
P2Pool creates a new block chain in which the difficulty is adjusted so a new block is found every 1030 seconds.

I of course updated the 10 to 30.

That statement would be false if what people are implying here is true.

To make a share average every 30s, it must use the submitted 1diff share rate to attempt to make that happen.
There is no other way to do it.

So again ...

Quote
If the difficulty drops it will also go up. It averages out to the same share difficulty.

So statistically you still get the same number of shares over time.

It's really not that complicated.  p2pool adjusts the minimum required share difficulty for shares so that a share will be found once every 30 seconds.  Now, if a bunch of people start to opt-in to a share difficulty much higher minimum requirement (doing so is a feature baked into p2pool), then obviously shares are going to start to be found less often.  In order for shares to continue to be found about once per 30 seconds, everyone else has to start finding them more often.  The only way they can find shares more often (with the same hashrate) is if p2pool lowers the minimum required share difficulty, and that's exactly what it does.

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December 20, 2013, 02:49:04 PM
 #7240

The only way they can find shares more often (with the same hashrate) is if p2pool lowers the minimum required share difficulty, and that's exactly what it does.

Right, the key is that the pool can set minimum difficulty.  Rather than adjusting difficulty for all miners, it adjusts difficulty for miners who have their difficulty set to the lowest possible.

Another way would be to adjust all miner's difficulty.  A miner might set their difficulty to 100X the default value.  The pool would then adjust the default value.

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