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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2032817 times)
iongchun
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January 18, 2014, 12:09:59 PM
 #7421


I pay 3% at BTC Guild.  I get paid for orphans, I get merged mining with NMC (impossible on p2pool solo), extremely low variance, 0.2% stales, and transaction fees.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me p2pool is better than that.

M

I don't want to convince you, because we value the benefit of mining differently.
Especially the decentralization and variance part.

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alanwgeorge
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January 18, 2014, 05:24:32 PM
 #7422

I was wondering how to get on this list?  I thought it might auto-populate but that doesn't seem to happen.

http://p2pool-nodes.info/

Wanted to add:
199.83.221.146:9332

Thanks,
-alan
mdude77
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January 18, 2014, 05:37:19 PM
 #7423


I pay 3% at BTC Guild.  I get paid for orphans, I get merged mining with NMC (impossible on p2pool solo), extremely low variance, 0.2% stales, and transaction fees.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me p2pool is better than that.

M

I don't want to convince you, because we value the benefit of mining differently.
Especially the decentralization and variance part.

I'm not following how you value increased variance.  Most people consider variance to be a bad thing.

Decentralization I can understand and agree with.  If I had the hashpower so that the current almost 1 million share difficulty didn't cause huge variance (or p2pool was changed so share difficulty didn't effectively lock out low end miners), and I could run p2pool locally, I would be a p2pool miner (again) as well.  Using a public node defeats the whole purpose of decentralization.

M

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Krak
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January 18, 2014, 05:45:30 PM
 #7424

I was wondering how to get on this list?  I thought it might auto-populate but that doesn't seem to happen.

http://p2pool-nodes.info/

Wanted to add:
199.83.221.146:9332

Thanks,
-alan
Do you have the ports forwarded? It can take a bit for it to show up on the site.

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alanwgeorge
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January 18, 2014, 05:51:07 PM
 #7425

I was wondering how to get on this list?  I thought it might auto-populate but that doesn't seem to happen.

http://p2pool-nodes.info/

Wanted to add:
199.83.221.146:9332

Thanks,
-alan
Do you have the ports forwarded? It can take a bit for it to show up on the site.

Yes it's forwarded, http://199.83.221.146:9332/static/ should be accessible and I am getting inbound p2pool traffic.
alanwgeorge
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January 18, 2014, 06:07:28 PM
 #7426


I pay 3% at BTC Guild.  I get paid for orphans, I get merged mining with NMC (impossible on p2pool solo), extremely low variance, 0.2% stales, and transaction fees.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me p2pool is better than that.

M

I don't want to convince you, because we value the benefit of mining differently.
Especially the decentralization and variance part.

I'm not following how you value increased variance.  Most people consider variance to be a bad thing.

Decentralization I can understand and agree with.  If I had the hashpower so that the current almost 1 million share difficulty didn't cause huge variance (or p2pool was changed so share difficulty didn't effectively lock out low end miners), and I could run p2pool locally, I would be a p2pool miner (again) as well.  Using a public node defeats the whole purpose of decentralization.

M

More hashpower is never going to reduce the variance compared to other pools.  You may get more shares on p2pool with more hashpower, but you will also get more shares on the other pools with same amount of hashes.  So I imagine you would still complain about "variance" even if you had more hashpower.  Shares on p2pool are far more valuable than other pools.  So in the long term, all other things being equal, it should be a wash, luck playing a big part.  The p2pool difficulty is reflected in the time it takes to generate a p2pool block.  The target being 10 seconds I believe.  The only way to reduce difficulty is to reduce this target time of 10 seconds (or reduce the total hashpower in the pool).  Reducing target time would have other consequences that I'm not sure you would be pleased with.  The effects of latency are already high.  Reducing target time would magnify those, if I understand correctly.  The sensitivity to latencies maybe the underlying cause behind your earlier comment, "p2pool can not be reliably run on a home DSL connection".  Which is not true, at least for me.  Anyhoo, sounds to me like having a constant trickle of payout no matter how small, is important to you.  I would suggest BTCGiuld is the right place for your hashes.
mdude77
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January 18, 2014, 06:52:11 PM
 #7427

More hashpower is never going to reduce the variance compared to other pools.  You may get more shares on p2pool with more hashpower, but you will also get more shares on the other pools with same amount of hashes.  So I imagine you would still complain about "variance" even if you had more hashpower.  Shares on p2pool are far more valuable than other pools.  So in the long term, all other things being equal, it should be a wash, luck playing a big part.  The p2pool difficulty is reflected in the time it takes to generate a p2pool block.  The target being 10 seconds I believe.  The only way to reduce difficulty is to reduce this target time of 10 seconds (or reduce the total hashpower in the pool).  Reducing target time would have other consequences that I'm not sure you would be pleased with.  The effects of latency are already high.  Reducing target time would magnify those, if I understand correctly.  The sensitivity to latencies maybe the underlying cause behind your earlier comment, "p2pool can not be reliably run on a home DSL connection".  Which is not true, at least from me.  Anyhoo, sounds to me like having a constant trickle of payout no matter how small, is important to you.  I would suggest BTCGiuld is the right place for your hashes.

More hashpower *will* reduce variance on p2pool.  It means more shares, which means more regular payouts.

I've been around since p2pool was a toddler.  I believe the changes made that spike the share difficulty up were to address the issues p2pool had with ASICs.  Now many ASICs work, but if you have small hashpower, you still get extreme variance because getting over that 1m difficulty share with a 15-20% chance of being rejected is hard.

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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gyverlb
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January 18, 2014, 10:15:42 PM
 #7428


I pay 3% at BTC Guild.  I get paid for orphans, I get merged mining with NMC (impossible on p2pool solo), extremely low variance, 0.2% stales, and transaction fees.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me p2pool is better than that.

M

I pay what I want to forrestv.
P2Pool has a negligible amount of orphans (didn't even find one in the last 200 known p2pool blocks).
I get merged mining with NMC, IXC, DVC (and could add any other merge-able coin I deem worth it).
Variance is only a problem if you don't earn much on p2pool (maybe then it doesn't really matter where you mine). You can actually verify this with merged mined coins: they work OK but as it's solo mining variance is really high and NMC blocks are a rare but nice bonus.
Stales % doesn't matter on p2pool only efficiency and I'm at 100+%.
p2pool pays transaction fees.

And I run it on a DSL line...

I only use centralized pools as backups and really don't see how I would benefit from switching to any of them. Even if I had a whole week of downtime right now on p2pool I still would have earned more than on any theoretical 100% up centralized pool (which actually have downtime when they are DoSed).

By the way, look at the current IXC and DVC difficulty (43% and 64% of BTC difficulty). This means that at least 40% of the miners are merge-mining IXC and 60% are merge-mining DVC (I'm pretty sure nobody is mining these coins expecting a profit unless they are using merge-mining).
Do you think these miners are aware they do mine IXC and/or DVC and get the relevant income?

No : they are mined by centralized pools and most keep the income for themselves and AFAIK don't even tell their miners about it. When you use p2pool you can at least fully control what your hash power is used for.

P2pool tuning guide
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smoothrunnings
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January 18, 2014, 10:26:21 PM
 #7429

How do I get the p2pool pages for /users/ /local_stats/ etc looking pleasing instead of lines of word wrapped text?

Also I have the latest version installed and /graphs/ doesn't work telling me "no such resource" is this normal?

Thanks
alanwgeorge
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January 18, 2014, 10:42:05 PM
 #7430

How do I get the p2pool pages for /users/ /local_stats/ etc looking pleasing instead of lines of word wrapped text?

Also I have the latest version installed and /graphs/ doesn't work telling me "no such resource" is this normal?

Thanks


https://github.com/hardcpp/P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd
mdude77
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January 18, 2014, 10:47:15 PM
 #7431

I pay what I want to forrestv.
P2Pool has a negligible amount of orphans (didn't even find one in the last 200 known p2pool blocks).
I get merged mining with NMC, IXC, DVC (and could add any other merge-able coin I deem worth it).
Variance is only a problem if you don't earn much on p2pool (maybe then it doesn't really matter where you mine). You can actually verify this with merged mined coins: they work OK but as it's solo mining variance is really high and NMC blocks are a rare but nice bonus.
Stales % doesn't matter on p2pool only efficiency and I'm at 100+%.
p2pool pays transaction fees.

And I run it on a DSL line...

YMMV.  My DSL line can't take the bandwidth.  I seem you recall you saying earlier (I think it was you) that p2pool doesn't run well on the average home DSL line.

Remember the 100+% efficiency is compared to other p2pool users, not compared to conventional pools.  I'm sure with a little tweaking I could get below the current p2pool average of 19%.  It's still magnitudes more than I get on a conventional pool.

Quote
I only use centralized pools as backups and really don't see how I would benefit from switching to any of them. Even if I had a whole week of downtime right now on p2pool I still would have earned more than on any theoretical 100% up centralized pool (which actually have downtime when they are DoSed).

BTC Guild had a huge DDOS not that long ago.  It stayed up.

Quote
By the way, look at the current IXC and DVC difficulty (43% and 64% of BTC difficulty). This means that at least 40% of the miners are merge-mining IXC and 60% are merge-mining DVC (I'm pretty sure nobody is mining these coins expecting a profit unless they are using merge-mining).
Do you think these miners are aware they do mine IXC and/or DVC and get the relevant income?

No : they are mined by centralized pools and most keep the income for themselves and AFAIK don't even tell their miners about it. When you use p2pool you can at least fully control what your hash power is used for.

That's an interesting point.

It doesn't mean I can successfully merge mine them though.  Did you see what I posted for IXC, DVC, and NMC difficulty?  It's like playing the lottery trying to solo mine them, which is what you're doing if you merge mine them with p2pool.  I'm better off not merge mining them and save some bandwidth.

You seem to distrust pool operators.  I happen to trust mine, and I am certain I do better on BTC Guild than I would on p2pool.  If I had the bandwidth and more hashpower, I'd use p2pool.  But I don't... I've been effectively squeezed out.  And I'm not alone.

M

EDIT: I guess my point is p2pool isn't for everyone.  True supporters of the p2pool concept acknowledge that.  The rest treat p2pool as a religion, as from their perspective, anyone who has a problem must not have their settings right or not understand the system.

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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smoothrunnings
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January 18, 2014, 11:17:10 PM
 #7432

How do I get the p2pool pages for /users/ /local_stats/ etc looking pleasing instead of lines of word wrapped text?

Also I have the latest version installed and /graphs/ doesn't work telling me "no such resource" is this normal?

Thanks


https://github.com/hardcpp/P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd

Sorry when it says put these files in your web-static folder, does it just mean the files or do I need to download the folders too? (just wondering so I am not doing something tiwce)
alanwgeorge
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January 18, 2014, 11:21:53 PM
 #7433

How do I get the p2pool pages for /users/ /local_stats/ etc looking pleasing instead of lines of word wrapped text?

Also I have the latest version installed and /graphs/ doesn't work telling me "no such resource" is this normal?

Thanks


https://github.com/hardcpp/P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd

Sorry when it says put these files in your web-static folder, does it just mean the files or do I need to download the folders too? (just wondering so I am not doing something tiwce)

$ cd p2pool
$ mv web-static web-static.orig
$ unzip P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd.zip
$ mv P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd web-static

from browser hit you 9332 port, you should see improved UI.

-alan
gyverlb
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January 18, 2014, 11:47:44 PM
 #7434

EDIT: I guess my point is p2pool isn't for everyone.  True supporters of the p2pool concept acknowledge that.  The rest treat p2pool as a religion, as from their perspective, anyone who has a problem must not have their settings right or not understand the system.

There are people with a setup that can't work well with p2pool whatever they try (ASICMiner blades, clogged or unreliable Internet connectivity for example) but there are people who don't understand how to tune a p2pool setup to work well on their environment too.

Given that p2pool can be configured to use less than 20KB/s and bitcoind tuned to use even less, people with DSL should all be able to use p2pool. The only ways someone can't use p2pool on a link that provides at least 512kbps in both directions I can think of are:
  • not knowing how to configure p2pool and bitcoind for low bandwidth,
  • not knowing how or being able to use QoS to give priority to p2pool and bitcoind,
  • needing the bandwidth for something else,
  • unreliable connectivity

On a related subject variance importance is often blown out of proportions and people willingly choose pools that pay between 3 and 5% less monthly because p2pool pays less nearly one day out of two. This behavior is not limited to pool choice: many forfeit long term gains for short term gains in most domains.

P2pool tuning guide
Trade BTC for €/$ at bitcoin.de (referral), it's cheaper and faster (acts as escrow and lets the buyers do bank transfers).
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mdude77
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January 18, 2014, 11:50:16 PM
 #7435

Just for comparison... since the common belief is that the high variance and high share difficulty doesn't affect your payout, let's compare.

I have 38GH/s.  It's a cube, I brought it online almost 13 days ago, pointing to BTC Guild.  Since then my total payout has been 0.12764.  According to BTCGuild stats, we're at 99.7% luck for the last 14 days, so I'm pretty close to "average" payout.  I'm not counting the ~0.21 NMC I've earned.

Can someone who has significantly larger hashrate post their comparison?  Ie, what you made in the last 13 days scaled down to 38GH/s?

EDIT: I'd also like to see someone who has an equivalent hashrate or less.

M


MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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mdude77
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January 18, 2014, 11:52:05 PM
 #7436

EDIT: I guess my point is p2pool isn't for everyone.  True supporters of the p2pool concept acknowledge that.  The rest treat p2pool as a religion, as from their perspective, anyone who has a problem must not have their settings right or not understand the system.

Given that p2pool can be configured to use less than 20KB/s and bitcoind tuned to use even less, people with DSL should all be able to use p2pool. The only ways someone can't use p2pool on a link that provides at least 512kbps in both directions I can think of are:
  • not knowing how to configure p2pool and bitcoind for low bandwidth,
  • not knowing how or being able to use QoS to give priority to p2pool and bitcoind,
  • needing the bandwidth for something else,
  • unreliable connectivity

I've never seen anyone say good things about QoS.  In fact, I've seen lots of people say turn it off, it hoses things, and I've seen it here in this thread.

Who doesn't use the bandwidth for anything else?

Quote
On a related subject variance importance is often blown out of proportions and people willingly choose pools that pay between 3 and 5% less monthly because p2pool pays less nearly one day out of two. This behavior is not limited to pool choice: many forfeit long term gains for short term gains in most domains.

See my prior post.  What's your 12 day comparison?  I realize it's probably too short, but I'd like to see.  We can compare again in 18 days.

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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smoothrunnings
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January 19, 2014, 12:00:40 AM
 #7437

EDIT: I guess my point is p2pool isn't for everyone.  True supporters of the p2pool concept acknowledge that.  The rest treat p2pool as a religion, as from their perspective, anyone who has a problem must not have their settings right or not understand the system.

On a related subject variance importance is often blown out of proportions and people willingly choose pools that pay between 3 and 5% less monthly because p2pool pays less nearly one day out of two. This behavior is not limited to pool choice: many forfeit long term gains for short term gains in most domains.

I agree, a mining friend of mine told me I should give P2Pool a chance for 30 days or so to see the overall gain over using a fee based pool. So far I have to say at I am happy to be at least hashing, the fee based pool I have been using lately hasn't had any blocks to be hashed so my miners have been spinning their wheels. Sad
smoothrunnings
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January 19, 2014, 12:01:23 AM
 #7438

How do I get the p2pool pages for /users/ /local_stats/ etc looking pleasing instead of lines of word wrapped text?

Also I have the latest version installed and /graphs/ doesn't work telling me "no such resource" is this normal?

Thanks


https://github.com/hardcpp/P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd

Sorry when it says put these files in your web-static folder, does it just mean the files or do I need to download the folders too? (just wondering so I am not doing something tiwce)

$ cd p2pool
$ mv web-static web-static.orig
$ unzip P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd.zip
$ mv P2PoolExtendedFrontEnd web-static

from browser hit you 9332 port, you should see improved UI.

-alan

To edit some of the links on the page that's all in the index I suppose?
gyverlb
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January 19, 2014, 01:03:33 AM
 #7439

I've never seen anyone say good things about QoS.  In fact, I've seen lots of people say turn it off, it hoses things, and I've seen it here in this thread.

I really don't care about what people say but about what is doable. I've configured QoS on my Linux server, it works, end of story. If people use QoS on their Linux server and it doesn't work for them I can provide tips.

Who doesn't use the bandwidth for anything else?
Quote

You misunderstood. QoS allows bandwidth for other traffic but for it to work you must have some headroom, if you need all of your available bandwidth for other traffics you can't use p2pool, if you only need what's above 256-512kbps in both directions then you can fit p2pool and bitcoind in with various levels of efficiency.

See my prior post.  What's your 12 day comparison?  I realize it's probably too short, but I'd like to see.  We can compare again in 18 days.

You don't have to ask here, the information is already public. Go to p2pool.info and you'll have data for a theoretical 100% efficient p2pool node.

Given that you mentioned a cube I suppose you have an ASICMiner cube. Unless they have a different miner implementation than the blades you are probably out of luck on p2pool. IIRC the blade miner could only do getwork and poorly: it didn't work well on several pools including p2pool because of their implementation. If this didn't change you are probably better off letting the beast mine on whatever pools you could find that worked fine with it.

P2pool tuning guide
Trade BTC for €/$ at bitcoin.de (referral), it's cheaper and faster (acts as escrow and lets the buyers do bank transfers).
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mdude77
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January 19, 2014, 01:29:34 AM
 #7440

I've never seen anyone say good things about QoS.  In fact, I've seen lots of people say turn it off, it hoses things, and I've seen it here in this thread.

I really don't care about what people say but about what is doable. I've configured QoS on my Linux server, it works, end of story. If people use QoS on their Linux server and it doesn't work for them I can provide tips.

That might be the difference.  The average person isn't going to use QoS on a Linux server.  The average person is going to have a cheap router that touts QoS, but the reality is it doesn't work well.

Who doesn't use the bandwidth for anything else?

You misunderstood. QoS allows bandwidth for other traffic but for it to work you must have some headroom, if you need all of your available bandwidth for other traffics you can't use p2pool, if you only need what's above 256-512kbps in both directions then you can fit p2pool and bitcoind in with various levels of efficiency.

I know what QoS is.  I have theoretical 768k up.  If I need p2pool and bitcoin to use 2/3's of that, I'm in trouble.

Quote
You don't have to ask here, the information is already public. Go to p2pool.info and you'll have data for a theoretical 100% efficient p2pool node.

I don't care what theoretical is.  I want to know what people are really getting! Smiley

Quote
Given that you mentioned a cube I suppose you have an ASICMiner cube. Unless they have a different miner implementation than the blades you are probably out of luck on p2pool. IIRC the blade miner could only do getwork and poorly: it didn't work well on several pools including p2pool because of their implementation. If this didn't change you are probably better off letting the beast mine on whatever pools you could find that worked fine with it.

If I was to attempt it I'd run it through a stratum proxy, as I'm doing now.  But as I've implied a few times, there's no way I'm pointing 38gh/s at 1m share difficulty.

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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