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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2032366 times)
smooth
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March 24, 2014, 02:36:15 AM
 #8081

I have read that P2P profits long term are greater, does this still hold true?

Nobody can answer that, since it depends so much on luck and other factors. With the luck taking a very long time to average out, so the other factors a are really hard to measure. Over the past few months p2pool has had fairly bad luck. Very recently luck has been a little better. The future, nobody knows.

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for finite time. Maybe that is important to you.

Server lists:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=66182.0
http://p2pool-nodes.info/

EDIT: http://p2pools.org/ (thank you CartmanSPC)
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March 24, 2014, 04:18:33 AM
 #8082

I'd like to get the p2pool entry in organofcorti's pool list corrected to indicate that p2pool does support merged mining. 

Here's what is now:

PPLNS mining pool

Pool : p2Pool
Fee :0%
Pay Tx Reward: Yes
Variable Difficulty: p2Pool
Local Work : Stratum
Pay Orphans: No
Min Withdrawal : Unknown
Merged Mining: No

Here's what I propose to submit (changes in bold). If someone can be more specific about the min payout, or has other suggestions, that might be helpful.

Pool : p2pool
Fee :0%
Pay Tx Reward: Yes
Variable Difficulty: p2pool
Local Work : Stratum
Pay Orphans: No
Min Withdrawal : Unknown
Merged Mining: Yes
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March 24, 2014, 04:38:10 AM
 #8083

Hello all.  Is there a list, somewhere, of the p2p servers set up, for Bitcoin and alt coins?

http://p2pools.org/ is a nice list...

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March 24, 2014, 05:03:13 AM
 #8084

I have read that P2P profits long term are greater, does this still hold true?

Nobody can answer that, since it depends so much on luck and other factors. With the luck...

Good thing I am a lucky S.O.B

And thanks for the list.
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March 24, 2014, 05:39:10 AM
 #8085

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for finite time.

Can you derive this for me? I've just spent a bit of the afternoon on it and I can't see it.




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March 24, 2014, 05:54:34 AM
 #8086

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for infinite time.
Can you derive this for me? I've just spent a bit of the afternoon on it and I can't see it.

fixed.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
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March 24, 2014, 06:05:40 AM
 #8087

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for finite time.
Can you derive this for me? I've just spent a bit of the afternoon on it and I can't see it.

First, let's ignore orphans, they affect both more or less equally, though how exactly they affect eligius is complex. It doesn't help refute the argument though.

The expected value of every share on p2pool (PPLNS) is exactly B/D (for some suitable scaling of B and D). This can be derived, and is likely is derived in one of Meni's posts.

The expected value of a share on eligius is (the product of an equivalent B/D and) the sum of an infinite series adding the probabilities that it is paid on this round plus the probability that it is paid on each future round. This series never goes to zero, so the terms beyond any finite time horizon always have a positive sum.

Not formal, but good enough?
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March 24, 2014, 06:16:34 AM
 #8088

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for infinite time.
Can you derive this for me? I've just spent a bit of the afternoon on it and I can't see it.

fixed.

No that's backwards. My original post was correct, as explained in my previous post.

This does not (at all) guarantee that you make more in p2pool. Expected value doesn't mean that.

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March 24, 2014, 09:27:38 AM
 #8089

Hmmmm....having all sorts of latency issues since upgrading to Bitcoin v9 & getting regular cpu spikes up to 60% - anyone else having problems? Done the right thing, uninstalled old, installed new from ppa, etc.........tried reinstalling........strange Tongue


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March 24, 2014, 10:01:25 AM
 #8090

I have read that P2P profits long term are greater, does this still hold true?

Nobody can answer that, since it depends so much on luck and other factors. With the luck taking a very long time to average out, so the other factors a are really hard to measure. Over the past few months p2pool has had fairly bad luck. Very recently luck has been a little better. The future, nobody knows.

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for finite time. Maybe that is important to you.

I'm not sure that last statement about being higher payout than Eligius is accurate.  You can put 0% donation into both, both pay transaction fees, and Eligius pays merged mining on NMC.  Yes you can merge mine in p2pool, but you are solo merged mining, which is almost the same as solo mining BTC. 

And when you throw in increasing variance with p2pool, I definitely think Eligius comes out ahead (which is why I'm there, not on p2pool).

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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March 24, 2014, 10:15:27 AM
 #8091

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for finite time.
Can you derive this for me? I've just spent a bit of the afternoon on it and I can't see it.

First, let's ignore orphans, they affect both more or less equally, though how exactly they affect eligius is complex. It doesn't help refute the argument though.

The expected value of every share on p2pool (PPLNS) is exactly B/D (for some suitable scaling of B and D). This can be derived, and is likely is derived in one of Meni's posts.

The expected value of a share on eligius is (the product of an equivalent B/D and) the sum of an infinite series adding the probabilities that it is paid on this round plus the probability that it is paid on each future round. This series never goes to zero, so the terms beyond any finite time horizon always have a positive sum.

Not formal, but good enough?

I'm not sure about the way you're thinking about expected value of a share on Eligius.

You need to show that for any t < Infty E(p2pool share) > E(eligius share) and I don't think that's the case (or at least I couldn't see a way to derive it).


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smooth
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March 24, 2014, 12:14:46 PM
 #8092

Let's posit that both pools have the same expected value for a share given infinite time.

Let's further posit that shares are proportional to time. This is not exactly true, but it is close. If you do not like this equivalence, then you may modify my original statement to be that the payout for p2pool is greater over a finite number of shares.

The payout for a share is made over at most N shares for p2pool. Once N is reached your expected payout is equal to the expected value of the share. The payout for that same share on Eligius is made over a potentially infinite number of shares (blocks). Thus for any future share > N, e(p2pool) has an expected payout value of 0 and Eligius has some expected payout value > 0. Sp when we reach N (and for any finite number of shares >=N), the expected value paid out by p2pool is greater than the expected value paid out by Eligius, because Eligius still has some remaining expected payments > 0 while p2pool does not.

For shares < N it isn't as clear. I'm ignoring that case. If your window is less than N your expected payout for Eligius may in fact be higher, I'm not sure.

I'm really not sure if this is not clear to you or if you would just like to see it stated more formally.


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March 24, 2014, 12:22:09 PM
 #8093

I'm not sure that last statement about being higher payout than Eligius is accurate.  You can put 0% donation into both, both pay transaction fees, and Eligius pays merged mining on NMC.  Yes you can merge mine in p2pool, but you are solo merged mining, which is almost the same as solo mining BTC.  

I did not claim it has a higher payout. I claimed it has a higher expected value (a mathematical term similar to average) over a finite period of time (more precisely a finite number of shares). In fact they have the same expected value over an infinite time horizon, as far as I can tell.

Quote
And when you throw in increasing variance with p2pool, I definitely think Eligius comes out ahead (which is why I'm there, not on p2pool).

I agree eligius most certainly has lower variance and may be preferable for that reason. This is a different question than expected value in finite time.

There are other pools that also have higher expected value than eligius in finite time but also have lower variance (certainly much lower than p2pool and possibly lower than eligius though this is certainly not clear). It isn't my intent here to promote any particular pool so I won't name names. I'm just pointing out some differences in payout methods that may or may not matter to a particular miner.

BTW, solo mining has the exact same expected value as mining on a zero fee hop-proof pool. But obviously very different variance.
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March 24, 2014, 01:39:27 PM
 #8094

Hmmmm....having all sorts of latency issues since upgrading to Bitcoin v9 & getting regular cpu spikes up to 60% - anyone else having problems? Done the right thing, uninstalled old, installed new from ppa, etc.........tried reinstalling........strange Tongue



Rinse, repeat:



Running Xubuntu 13.10 64bit - anyone else have latency issues with Bitcoind v9?

Anyone??

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March 24, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
 #8095

I have read that P2P profits long term are greater, does this still hold true?

Nobody can answer that, since it depends so much on luck and other factors. With the luck taking a very long time to average out, so the other factors a are really hard to measure. Over the past few months p2pool has had fairly bad luck. Very recently luck has been a little better. The future, nobody knows.

However, I will say that the expected value of the p2pool payout method (if set to zero fees) is higher than the expected value of the eligius payout method for finite time. Maybe that is important to you.

I'm not sure that last statement about being higher payout than Eligius is accurate.  You can put 0% donation into both, both pay transaction fees, and Eligius pays merged mining on NMC.  Yes you can merge mine in p2pool, but you are solo merged mining, which is almost the same as solo mining BTC. 

And when you throw in increasing variance with p2pool, I definitely think Eligius comes out ahead (which is why I'm there, not on p2pool).

M

it will be always big discussion which pool has better payouts. if we are only "thinking" about it this discussion is senseless...
i have reference miners in different pools since 2 months and can say pretty clear that mining in eligius is for sure not more effective than mining  in p2pool. even with lots of bad luck in p2pool last few months i have better payouts in p2pool.

it looks like p2pool has a big variance, but in reality every pool has some variances. p2pool maybe does not find a block some days long and we speak already about "big loss and variance", but nobody recognizes when other pools with huge hash rate has daily payout drop of 30-40% and that sometimes several days.

payout stability of ghash.io, btcguild, eligius etc. is a myth. everyone has low payout phases and mostly this "lows" make payout in in the end (long terms) worse than it is in p2pool.

Those are my real experiences and not just what i am thinking.


Enjoy your life!
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March 24, 2014, 02:24:51 PM
 #8096

payout stability of ghash.io, btcguild, eligius etc. is a myth.

The greater the proportion of the network hashrate a pool commands, the lower its variance will be.
That isn't a myth.

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
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March 24, 2014, 02:57:24 PM
 #8097

payout stability of ghash.io, btcguild, eligius etc. is a myth.

The greater the proportion of the network hashrate a pool commands, the lower its variance will be.
That isn't a myth.

sure you get paid out with higher frequency, it does not mean that there is no variance.

sometimes p2pool does not make block several days and then makes 2 or 3 in wiry short time. daily payouts in other pools are day to day different too.
variance is a so to say "relative function" and depending what kind of timeframe you take as mirror.

it is not important how many payouts you have per day, week or month but its important how much BTC you get paid out in this timeframe. if you chose short timeframe you can speak about big variance. every longer timeframe that smaller variance. i don´t care (and for sure most of miners don´t) how often i get payouts, more important is how much i get paid out in the end.

of course if you have to sell your BTC daily, then it is easier to mine in some huge pool and enjoy this BTC or USD daily.

my variance i count per month and so p2pool did not disappoint me yet. monthly (income)variance speaks clear for p2pool.

of course it can be that small(er) miners have different experiences.

Enjoy your life!
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March 24, 2014, 03:19:24 PM
 #8098

payout stability of ghash.io, btcguild, eligius etc. is a myth.

The greater the proportion of the network hashrate a pool commands, the lower its variance will be.
That isn't a myth.

sure you get paid out with higher frequency, it does not mean that there is no variance.
No, it means there is lower variance, and your payouts will be more consistent.
Larger pools do have greater payout stability, due to lower variance.

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
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March 24, 2014, 08:59:06 PM
 #8099

Hello all.  Is there a list, somewhere, of the p2p servers set up, for Bitcoin and alt coins? 

P2Pool Finder
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March 24, 2014, 09:37:20 PM
 #8100

I used to mine here at p2pool about six to nine months ago. I'm considering coming back and I have a couple of questions. I am using Ubuntu 12.04.

1: Do I need to use a dummy wallet now that we have the disable wallet feature on bitcoin-qt or do I even need a wallet.dat file at all with the disable wallet command?

Edit: Well I answered my first question on my own I am using QT with no wallet.dat file so no dummy or any other needed.

2: I set a user/password in my bitcoin.conf file but when I try to use it with p2pool.py for example    python run_p2pool.py -a 1blahblahblah --give-author 0.5 -u user -p password
I have it running with no user/pass set and I used bogus user/pass on my miner to connect to my node. Is this a security issue, have I configured something wrong?


3:I'm at about 280GH/s and cgminer keeps changing my difficulty (often) should I set a minimum diff setting and where do I do that? I know there was a way in the past I just can't remember.

Edit: I answered my 3rd question you just append +xxx to your user name for the miner pool credentials and it adjust the difficulty accordingly...

4: My latency is about .3s, that seems high should I be concerned about that and start tuning a little or is that acceptable?

Thanks,
GrapeApe

BTW: The conversation going on beneath my post is the same one that was going on six months ago just different people.....BORING
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