Bitcoin Forum
December 11, 2016, 02:03:51 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 [366] 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 ... 744 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2035751 times)
Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470



View Profile
January 04, 2014, 03:58:20 PM
 #7301

So, basically it seems nothing has been done.  Oh well.  Roll Eyes

No, it means that everything has been done for every other device that has native stratum. Those devices now all work. AM blades are the only available example of ASIC hardware like this.

If it's any consolation, the p2pool hashrate has gone up so much that you'd be fighting to get 1 share in the chain per block found. Because of all the ASICs on the pool.

Vires in numeris
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481465031
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481465031

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481465031
Reply with quote  #2

1481465031
Report to moderator
1481465031
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481465031

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481465031
Reply with quote  #2

1481465031
Report to moderator
int03h
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
January 04, 2014, 05:48:43 PM
 #7302

WRT sizing a p2pool node .. has anyone got any decent guidance on what the  requirements for running the EXE or on linux?

I have tried various scenarios and it seems dead rate is very dependant on available CPU and hash load.

Watching taskmanager it seems to hit the CPU hard every few seconds as it gets new work. If the machine is too small e.g. Amazon EC2 micro it flat lines at 100% for a few seconds and generates orphans and deads like crazy. The more miners connected the more spikes. The bigger the machine the better, it seems, but that is a VERY WIDE definition.

Anyone care to explain how to avoid losing shares - the more technical the better ?

EDIT: My DOA rate hovers well under 10%. Not sure if I am trying to fix something that ain't broke ?
spooderman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176


View Profile WWW
January 05, 2014, 04:50:08 PM
 #7303

I would like to start mining here. Honestly though, all I have is 6.5GH to offer. Is there any point (as opposed to continuing on eligius)? And, if someone would be so kind, could you please tell me how the payout works? It's obviously not PPS, and I guess the CPPSRBP that I've grown to love with eligius is also not offered (is this not a possibility here, given that this method prevents the pool from ever paying out more than it can? Or would this jeopardize the pools decentralization?)

Thknas, spodermen

Society doesn't scale.
mitty
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 363



View Profile
January 06, 2014, 01:00:02 AM
 #7304

I would like to start mining here. Honestly though, all I have is 6.5GH to offer. Is there any point (as opposed to continuing on eligius)? And, if someone would be so kind, could you please tell me how the payout works? It's obviously not PPS, and I guess the CPPSRBP that I've grown to love with eligius is also not offered (is this not a possibility here, given that this method prevents the pool from ever paying out more than it can? Or would this jeopardize the pools decentralization?)

Thknas, spodermen
It's been a while since I've used p2pool but I believe the payout system is PPLNS (Pay per last N shares).  I don't think decentralized CPPSRBP is currently possible because there'd have to be some way to manage a pool wallet for when there's a surplus from a block reward/pay from it when needed and doing this in a decentralized manner would be very difficult.

The advantage of p2pool is decentralization/not trusting a centralized pool operator and helping the Bitcoin network by running a 24/7 full node.  I'd recommend not using p2pool with a small hashrate because your payouts will be tiny and cost a lot to spend in terms of transaction fees.
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
January 06, 2014, 01:26:13 AM
 #7305

I don't think decentralized CPPSRBP is currently possible because there'd have to be some way to manage a pool wallet for when there's a surplus from a block reward/pay from it when needed and doing this in a decentralized manner would be very difficult.

There is no wallet or surplus with CPPSRBP. The Eligius coinbases pay out to miners, not a pool wallet.  There is a share log and every block that gets paid out to the most recent shares adding up to the value of the block. If the round was unlucky then not all shares from that round will be paid. If the round was lucky then some old shares will be paid.  I don't know enough about the internals of p2pool to know whether this is possible.

EDIT: This isn't quite right since Eligius doesn't pay out until your balance reaches the minimum payout. Still the blocks rewards are paid directly to miners (who have accumulated a large enough balance to get paid out), not to a pool wallet.
spooderman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176


View Profile WWW
January 06, 2014, 06:04:59 AM
 #7306

I would like to start mining here. Honestly though, all I have is 6.5GH to offer. Is there any point (as opposed to continuing on eligius)? And, if someone would be so kind, could you please tell me how the payout works? It's obviously not PPS, and I guess the CPPSRBP that I've grown to love with eligius is also not offered (is this not a possibility here, given that this method prevents the pool from ever paying out more than it can? Or would this jeopardize the pools decentralization?)

Thknas, spodermen
It's been a while since I've used p2pool but I believe the payout system is PPLNS (Pay per last N shares).  I don't think decentralized CPPSRBP is currently possible because there'd have to be some way to manage a pool wallet for when there's a surplus from a block reward/pay from it when needed and doing this in a decentralized manner would be very difficult.

The advantage of p2pool is decentralization/not trusting a centralized pool operator and helping the Bitcoin network by running a 24/7 full node.  I'd recommend not using p2pool with a small hashrate because your payouts will be tiny and cost a lot to spend in terms of transaction fees.

do p2pool payouts unavoidably incur transaction fees? I don't understand enough about it to know for myself. If I am directly getting the mined coins that shouldn't happen right? A fee to me implies that someone is paying me a tiny amount. Thanks for your response btw. I'll probably stay on eligius, even though I do greatly want to help the network health. Ghash and guild should have 5% between them. Not over half.

Society doesn't scale.
kjj
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302



View Profile
January 06, 2014, 06:16:18 AM
 #7307

It's been a while since I've used p2pool but I believe the payout system is PPLNS (Pay per last N shares).  I don't think decentralized CPPSRBP is currently possible because there'd have to be some way to manage a pool wallet for when there's a surplus from a block reward/pay from it when needed and doing this in a decentralized manner would be very difficult.

The advantage of p2pool is decentralization/not trusting a centralized pool operator and helping the Bitcoin network by running a 24/7 full node.  I'd recommend not using p2pool with a small hashrate because your payouts will be tiny and cost a lot to spend in terms of transaction fees.

do p2pool payouts unavoidably incur transaction fees? I don't understand enough about it to know for myself. If I am directly getting the mined coins that shouldn't happen right? A fee to me implies that someone is paying me a tiny amount. Thanks for your response btw. I'll probably stay on eligius, even though I do greatly want to help the network health. Ghash and guild should have 5% between them. Not over half.

He means when you spend them later.  The payments to you are indeed generation transactions and have no fees.  Current payout for a single active share is something like 0.0045 BTC.  A spend of 1 BTC using them will be like 50kb or something, and will need some fees.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
I routinely ignore posters with paid advertising in their sigs.  You should too.
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
January 06, 2014, 06:36:44 AM
 #7308

He means when you spend them later.  The payments to you are indeed generation transactions and have no fees.  Current payout for a single active share is something like 0.0045 BTC.  A spend of 1 BTC using them will be like 50kb or something, and will need some fees.

You can avoid these under the current rules if you a really really careful about how you construct the transactions, or at least minimize them given slightly less care. The bitcoin wiki has some examples. The standard client probably won't construct the transactions the right way though.

EDIT: I thought it had examples, but now I can't find the page. The gist of it is that you need to keep the transactions under 10kb and make sure that all outputs are >0.01. In practice this means not having a change output and it might mean having one large input along with the small ones you are aggregating. It might take multiple transactions but as long as each is under 10kb, you're fine. You might then need a fee to spend the entire amount because the outputs of the initial transactions aren't "mature" but the fee will be a reasonable percentage.
lenny_
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 953



View Profile
January 06, 2014, 09:03:02 AM
 #7309

Rules has been changed in last Bitcoin version 0.8.6. Maximum free transaction size is now 3 KB not 10 KB.
Also, all outputs of 0.01 BTC rule also have been removed.

Please read 0.8.6 changelog: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.6/README.txt/download

Code:
- Remove the all-outputs-must-be-greater-than-CENT-to-qualify-as-free rule for relaying
  (see https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/7670433#086-relaying)

- Lower maximum size for free transaction creation
  (see https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/7670433#086-wallet)
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
January 06, 2014, 05:55:13 PM
 #7310

Rules has been changed in last Bitcoin version 0.8.6. Maximum free transaction size is now 3 KB not 10 KB.
Also, all outputs of 0.01 BTC rule also have been removed.

That being the case all you need to do is collect up as many outputs as you can fit into each 3K transaction (roughly 10 I think) and send them to a new output. Of course this assumes enough of the network has upgraded to 0.8.6, which may or may not be true.
mitty
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 363



View Profile
January 07, 2014, 06:52:41 AM
 #7311

I don't think decentralized CPPSRBP is currently possible because there'd have to be some way to manage a pool wallet for when there's a surplus from a block reward/pay from it when needed and doing this in a decentralized manner would be very difficult.

There is no wallet or surplus with CPPSRBP. The Eligius coinbases pay out to miners, not a pool wallet.  There is a share log and every block that gets paid out to the most recent shares adding up to the value of the block. If the round was unlucky then not all shares from that round will be paid. If the round was lucky then some old shares will be paid.  I don't know enough about the internals of p2pool to know whether this is possible.

EDIT: This isn't quite right since Eligius doesn't pay out until your balance reaches the minimum payout. Still the blocks rewards are paid directly to miners (who have accumulated a large enough balance to get paid out), not to a pool wallet.
Eligius usually pays directly using the coinbase transactions of blocks the pool mines, but from the Eligius CPPSRB page:
Quote
When a block is found:
  • Go back 25 BTC into the share log, and reward those at PPS price.
  • Delete those shares from the log
  • If the entire database was paid and there are still funds left, include it in the next block's reward

When a block is orphaned:
  • Undelete the shares rewarded for it

I may be wrong but I don't know how BTC saved for the next block's reward could be awarded using the coinbase since the full block reward needs to go somewhere.  I mine on Eligius and every once in a while I get regular payments (i.e., not "mined"/generated payouts) to my address so I just assume it was from coins the pool had to pay to itself due to a lucky streak. (or nice people donating/miners typing their address incorrectly :p )

@spooderman like kjj, smooth, and lenny_ above me said you won't be charged fees when you get paid via p2pool, but mining on p2pool with a low hashrate will lead to a bunch of tiny payments into your wallet which will cost a lot in transaction fees later on when you try to spend the coins if your wallet isn't smart about making small enough transactions which can be sent with no fee.  Normal pools just wait until you have mined a certain amount before sending you a payout which leads to fewer transaction fees when you later spend the coins but I believe p2pool sends you a payout as long as you have found at least one p2pool share during a round which means a bunch of tiny transactions if you usually only find a couple of shares per round.

However you can get around this by trial and error if you're using bitcoin-qt: keep trying to send transactions and decrease the amount until it doesn't ask for a fee.  You can keep paying into an address of an exchange account and then withdraw all the coins from the exchange back into your wallet in one transaction which should make spending your coins much cheaper. Smiley
(I hope the exchange wallet has an intelligent way of bundling these tiny inputs into other transactions so they aren't hit with fees!)
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
January 07, 2014, 02:03:02 PM
 #7312

  • If the entire database was paid and there are still funds left, include it in the next block's reward

This never happens in practice. The database has shares that are months or maybe years old. It is not clear to me why this is other than bad luck early on by the pool (which would build up a backlog of shares in the database). Or maybe it is because p2pool apparently outperforms the centralized pools, so they will always have a bit more than their share of "bad luck."

Quote
I mine on Eligius and every once in a while I get regular payments (i.e., not "mined"/generated payouts) to my address so I just assume it was from coins the pool had to pay to itself due to a lucky streak. (or nice people donating/miners typing their address incorrectly :p )

I have no idea what those are. I don't think I've received them (but not positive, I've had payments going to several different wallets/addresses over the years so I may not have noticed). Maybe the operator correcting for some malfunctions?



gmaxwell
Moderator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2030



View Profile
January 08, 2014, 05:49:55 PM
 #7313

This never happens in practice.
It's because their payout is higher than the actual expectation once you consider orphans. It ends up being a transfer of value from those with the most weighed hash-power when the pool is unlucky those with the most weighed hashpower when its lucky. Fortunately thats still not hoppable since you don't know in advance which group you'll be in, but it's clearly unoptimal.  I'd tried to talk wizkid into paying 99% of PPS to the regular share queue and have the remaining 1% set aside and moved to a queue which is only paid after all the pay before it was paid out, but he was worried that other pools would claim that it was a fee. (Ideally the fraction would be determined by the true expected reward, but thats hard to estimate and it looks like eligius has a ~1% orphan rate, and indeed P2Pools' appears to be much lower)

I'm glad p2pool uses a pay-per last-n derived method where you don't have to worry about that kind of open loop mismatch.
TierNolan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
January 08, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
 #7314

It's because their payout is higher than the actual expectation once you consider orphans.

- pay each share 98% of expected
- pay remaining to last N shares, if queue is empty

Quote
I'm glad p2pool uses a pay-per last-n derived method where you don't have to worry about that kind of open loop mismatch.

I think the Eligius one has lower variance?

P2pool relies on honesty to ensure that miners update the bitcoin block they are building on (and the 1% reward for actually finding a block)?

In fact, what is the "cycle" time for an ASIC?

1LxbG5cKXzTwZg9mjL3gaRE835uNQEteWF
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
January 08, 2014, 07:48:01 PM
 #7315

This never happens in practice.
It's because their payout is higher than the actual expectation once you consider orphans.

Okay yes that makes sense. As soon as you get a single orphan (the expectation of) those shares will stay in the log forever.

Thank you for the explanation.


smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
January 08, 2014, 08:16:32 PM
 #7316

I'd tried to talk wizkid into paying 99% of PPS to the regular share queue and have the remaining 1% set aside and moved to a queue which is only paid after all the pay before it was paid out, but he was worried that other pools would claim that it was a fee.

Why not just dump the oldest 25 BTC worth of shares from the log when you get an orphan? The orphan happened, so 25 BTC worth of shares is worthless and the pool isn't getting that value back ever. That's makes it sort of a PPLN with a very large N, while retaining the low variance of their method.

organofcorti
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1960


Poor impulse control.


View Profile WWW
January 09, 2014, 03:44:25 AM
 #7317

.....

I think the Eligius one has lower variance?

.....

AFAIK, no one has derived the variance for average reward per valid share submitted per period of time for Eligius' reward method. In infinite time all shares should be paid, but if you confine rewards to a time period there is significant variance in received rewards.




Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
follow @oocBlog for new post notifications
manrus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1363


TTM


View Profile
January 09, 2014, 12:50:09 PM
 #7318

I have 31gh/s asic. Can I mining on p2pool or this too small speed?
TierNolan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
January 09, 2014, 03:01:33 PM
 #7319

I have 31gh/s asic. Can I mining on p2pool or this too small speed?

The smallest miners on the pool have around 5-10GH/s.  I think 30GH/s would give you more than one share a day, so variance wouldn't be that bad.

The pool itself finds a share twice a day, and you get 3 payments per share on average.

1LxbG5cKXzTwZg9mjL3gaRE835uNQEteWF
LargePig
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 13



View Profile
January 09, 2014, 03:12:18 PM
 #7320

The smallest miners on the pool have around 5-10GH/s.  I think 30GH/s would give you more than one share a day, so variance wouldn't be that bad.

Mine is currently running like this:
Local: 31942MH/s in last 10.0 minutes Local dead on arrival: ~3.5% (2-6%) Expected time to share: 1.1 days

I've just today switched back to p2pool from a while balanced between BTC Guild and Slush, so will see how it settles down.

BTC: 1DxCK6nnZZe7iDPYV79wZsouMDVFDSu2Wx
My P2pool (2% fee, I guarantee nothing....) http://p2pool.allyourbasearebelongto.me.uk:9332
Pages: « 1 ... 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 [366] 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 ... 744 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!