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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2029994 times)
TierNolan
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January 16, 2014, 11:05:02 AM
 #7381

P2pool pays out over 3 blocks on average.  The pool is finding around 2 blocks per day.  This means if you find a share, you will get 3 payouts spaced every 12 hours (on average).

If you find a share once every 3 days, it remains active for 1.5 days, so you have an active share for 50% of the time.

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HellDiverUK
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January 16, 2014, 03:06:04 PM
 #7382

So, just ran my 120GH on p2pool for 24 hours.  Payout stands at 0.004BTC.  That's shit.  Barely pays for the power used running a PC all day.

Back to a real pool.
TierNolan
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January 16, 2014, 03:34:10 PM
 #7383

So, just ran my 120GH on p2pool for 24 hours.  Payout stands at 0.004BTC.  That's shit.  Barely pays for the power used running a PC all day.

Back to a real pool.

Payout is over 3 blocks, so takes 1.5 days to payout. 

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ksenter
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January 16, 2014, 04:09:47 PM
 #7384

So, just ran my 120GH on p2pool for 24 hours.  Payout stands at 0.004BTC.  That's shit.  Barely pays for the power used running a PC all day.

Back to a real pool.

Payout is over 3 blocks, so takes 1.5 days to payout. 
You should probably stop feeding the troll.  He'll never use p2pool long enough or with any objectivity.  He just knows he doesn't like it without having a valid reason.
Btw, over the past 3 days I've gotten 0.085+ bitcoins with only 30Ghs.  The 4 days prior to that I got 0 however.  So yeah, variance...  The good news is that over time I've always come out better than other pools.  You just have to be patient.  I completely understand though that people with low hashrates might prefer a different pool.  But really everyone with hundreds of GHs should consider trying p2pool for a couple of weeks.
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January 16, 2014, 04:19:56 PM
 #7385

So, just ran my 120GH on p2pool for 24 hours.  Payout stands at 0.004BTC.  That's shit.  Barely pays for the power used running a PC all day.

Back to a real pool.

Payout is over 3 blocks, so takes 1.5 days to payout.  
You should probably stop feeding the troll.  He'll never use p2pool long enough or with any objectivity.  He just knows he doesn't like it without having a valid reason.
Btw, over the past 3 days I've gotten 0.085+ bitcoins with only 30Ghs.  The 4 days prior to that I got 0 however.  So yeah, variance...  The good news is that over time I've always come out better than other pools.  You just have to be patient.  I completely understand though that people with low hashrates might prefer a different pool.  But really everyone with hundreds of GHs should consider trying p2pool for a couple of weeks.
it was allways the same with him/it and it will always be Tongue stupidity meets ignorance  Undecided

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smooth
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January 16, 2014, 07:49:17 PM
 #7386

On average it'll take you about 3 days to find a share at current sharechain difficulty (770k).  That means there will be dry periods much longer, and probably some days it's shorter.

How about you drop the obvious bias? "Will" be dry periods, and "probably" some days its shorter?  Seriously?

There WILL be longer dry periods and there WILL be shorter dry periods. That is the nature of variance. But when your total hash rate translates to $2/day the absolute variance will not be much. You will NEVER underperform by more than $2/day.

Quote
 Another factor regularly overlooked with p2pool is the high reject rate.  I know I was extremely disappointed when those 3 or 4 days would go by and I'd finally get that cherished share ... only to have it rejected.

If you have a "high" reject rate then something is malfunctioning or misconfigured.  A few percent or so rejects is normal and anything up to about 10% probably does not hurt your earnings relative to another pool.

Quote
I tend to think you won't be getting $5 or $10 every few days with 12gh/s.

Then you would be wrong. If your expected earnings are $2/day and you have multiple days of getting $0 then you WILL also have days of getting $6 or more. Mathematical certainty.

Over periods of weeks you will very likely earn more than regular pools even with 12 GH. If you want to earn less, go right ahead, but stop spreading biased misinformation.

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January 16, 2014, 08:00:37 PM
 #7387

Single blade antminer S1, Works fantastically on P2Pool:

Are you using any nonstandard configuration or settings?

I'm planning to give p2pool another shot on my AntMiners next week. The hardware for the node is on order right now.
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January 16, 2014, 08:36:10 PM
 #7388

Good Pool  Wink

mdude77
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January 16, 2014, 10:47:24 PM
 #7389

On average it'll take you about 3 days to find a share at current sharechain difficulty (770k).  That means there will be dry periods much longer, and probably some days it's shorter.

How about you drop the obvious bias? "Will" be dry periods, and "probably" some days its shorter?  Seriously?

There WILL be longer dry periods and there WILL be shorter dry periods. That is the nature of variance. But when your total hash rate translates to $2/day the absolute variance will not be much. You will NEVER underperform by more than $2/day.

Quote
 Another factor regularly overlooked with p2pool is the high reject rate.  I know I was extremely disappointed when those 3 or 4 days would go by and I'd finally get that cherished share ... only to have it rejected.

If you have a "high" reject rate then something is malfunctioning or misconfigured.  A few percent or so rejects is normal and anything up to about 10% probably does not hurt your earnings relative to another pool.

Quote
I tend to think you won't be getting $5 or $10 every few days with 12gh/s.

Then you would be wrong. If your expected earnings are $2/day and you have multiple days of getting $0 then you WILL also have days of getting $6 or more. Mathematical certainty.

Over periods of weeks you will very likely earn more than regular pools even with 12 GH. If you want to earn less, go right ahead, but stop spreading biased misinformation.

[edited more than once]

You're right, I think there was some bias in there.  I'm not new to p2pool, nor new to mining.  I've always been a small miner in p2pool, and the huge variance I experience hurts.  And the 16% stale rate, on average, doesn't help matters.

I thought a bit about why I stay away from p2pool and why I suggest other "small" miners do the same.

It's the variance and the continued massive increases in difficulty.

Over the roughly 2 week period between BTC difficulty increases, if you average a share every 3 days, that means there will be times when it's longer, and there will be times that it's shorter.  Because of stale shares, there will be more longer periods than there will be shorter periods.  If BTC difficulty never increased, it would even out in the end compared to everyone else in p2pool.

The rub is in the difficulty increase.  In that 2 week period I should get 4 shares on average, assuming share difficulty doesn't increase.  But it is... so if I luck out and get 4 shares, or more, then great.  But if I don't, I will do better on a standard pool with little variance (like BTC Guild).  

Maybe my math is wrong.  The resident math expert will likely chime in here correcting me if I'm off.  It may just be a feeling.  Regardless, it seems to me because of the endless drastic difficulty increases, when I come out behind in that difficulty period, I will never catch up in the next difficulty period.  And there will be times when I come out behind... so therefore I'm better off in a standard pool.

Again, this applies to small miners.  With share difficulty approaching 1m, I can't imagine pointing my measly 38 gh/s at p2pool.  The variance would be awful, and before I know it, the BTC difficulty will increase again.

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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mdude77
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January 17, 2014, 01:19:39 AM
 #7390

Maybe my math is wrong.  The resident math expert will likely chime in here correcting me if I'm off.  It may just be a feeling.  Regardless, it seems to me because of the endless drastic difficulty increases, when I come out behind in that difficulty period, I will never catch up in the next difficulty period.  And there will be times when I come out behind... so therefore I'm better off in a standard pool.

I'll use some extreme numbers for an example.  The numbers will scale either way, I'm using these for simplicity.  I'm ignoring pool fees (lower on p2pool usually than conventional pools), share difficulty increases (doesn't increase on conventional pools), and high rejects on p2pool (doesn't increase on conventional pools).

Let's say for one given BTC difficulty period, according to average, I'm supposed to mine 1 BTC.

That period is awful luck wise.  I only get 50% of what I'm supposed to.  Instead of 1 BTC, I get 0.5 BTC.

The next period, my luck reverses.  I make 50% more than I'm supposed to!  But difficulty also increased 50%.  I'm supposed to make 0.5BTC, on average, but instead I make 0.75BTC.

For those periods, I made a total of 1.25BTC.

On a conventional pool with low variance, I would have made 1.5BTC.

Let's try it with difficulty increasing 30%.

2nd period, my luck reverses.  I'm supposed to make 0.7BTC, instead I make 1.05BTC.

For those two periods, I should have made 1.7BTC.  Instead I made 1.55BTC.  On a conventional pool with low variance, I would be a lot closer to 1.7BTC.

Granted, this is not specific to p2pool.  The same logic applies to any pool with high variance.  What's unique to p2pool is the high share difficulty (increases variance) and rejects (also increases variance).

Is there a flaw in my logic?

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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alanwgeorge
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January 17, 2014, 01:21:34 AM
 #7391

I was curious why all the p2pool payouts are listed on blockchain's "Strange Transactions" list.

https://blockchain.info/strange-transactions

"Unable to decode input address" 0 BTC
IYFTech
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January 17, 2014, 01:36:01 AM
 #7392

Hello again p2poolers  Grin

OK, decided to switch my node on again after upgrading to 13.10. I'm struggling with getting slush's stratum proxy to play with p2pool so thought I'd ask here - does it work with p2pool? If so, can someone give me a heads up?

Ta muchly  Grin

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forrestv
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January 17, 2014, 01:49:10 AM
 #7393

Maybe my math is wrong.  The resident math expert will likely chime in here correcting me if I'm off.  It may just be a feeling.  Regardless, it seems to me because of the endless drastic difficulty increases, when I come out behind in that difficulty period, I will never catch up in the next difficulty period.  And there will be times when I come out behind... so therefore I'm better off in a standard pool.

I'll use some extreme numbers for an example.  The numbers will scale either way, I'm using these for simplicity.  I'm ignoring pool fees (lower on p2pool usually than conventional pools), share difficulty increases (doesn't increase on conventional pools), and high rejects on p2pool (doesn't increase on conventional pools).

Let's say for one given BTC difficulty period, according to average, I'm supposed to mine 1 BTC.

That period is awful luck wise.  I only get 50% of what I'm supposed to.  Instead of 1 BTC, I get 0.5 BTC.

The next period, my luck reverses.  I make 50% more than I'm supposed to!  But difficulty also increased 50%.  I'm supposed to make 0.5BTC, on average, but instead I make 0.75BTC.

For those periods, I made a total of 1.25BTC.

On a conventional pool with low variance, I would have made 1.5BTC.

Let's try it with difficulty increasing 30%.

2nd period, my luck reverses.  I'm supposed to make 0.7BTC, instead I make 1.05BTC.

For those two periods, I should have made 1.7BTC.  Instead I made 1.55BTC.  On a conventional pool with low variance, I would be a lot closer to 1.7BTC.

Granted, this is not specific to p2pool.  The same logic applies to any pool with high variance.  What's unique to p2pool is the high share difficulty (increases variance) and rejects (also increases variance).

Is there a flaw in my logic?

M


Yes. You're assuming that you'll have bad luck now and good luck later, but you have to look at all possible outcomes to calculate what you expect to happen.

Using the average return for your case and the case where you have good luck now and bad luck later happens to be enough for the calculated return to be what it should be:

First period: supposed to mine 1 BTC, mine 1.5 BTC instead (+50% luck)
Second period: supposed to mine 0.5 BTC, mine 0.25 BTC instead (-50% luck)

You made 1.75 BTC, more than expected.


Average of 1.25 BTC and 1.75 BTC = 1.5 BTC, what you're "supposed to mine."

1J1zegkNSbwX4smvTdoHSanUfwvXFeuV23
mdude77
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January 17, 2014, 02:00:15 AM
 #7394

Maybe my math is wrong.  The resident math expert will likely chime in here correcting me if I'm off.  It may just be a feeling.  Regardless, it seems to me because of the endless drastic difficulty increases, when I come out behind in that difficulty period, I will never catch up in the next difficulty period.  And there will be times when I come out behind... so therefore I'm better off in a standard pool.

I'll use some extreme numbers for an example.  The numbers will scale either way, I'm using these for simplicity.  I'm ignoring pool fees (lower on p2pool usually than conventional pools), share difficulty increases (doesn't increase on conventional pools), and high rejects on p2pool (doesn't increase on conventional pools).

Let's say for one given BTC difficulty period, according to average, I'm supposed to mine 1 BTC.

That period is awful luck wise.  I only get 50% of what I'm supposed to.  Instead of 1 BTC, I get 0.5 BTC.

The next period, my luck reverses.  I make 50% more than I'm supposed to!  But difficulty also increased 50%.  I'm supposed to make 0.5BTC, on average, but instead I make 0.75BTC.

For those periods, I made a total of 1.25BTC.

On a conventional pool with low variance, I would have made 1.5BTC.

Let's try it with difficulty increasing 30%.

2nd period, my luck reverses.  I'm supposed to make 0.7BTC, instead I make 1.05BTC.

For those two periods, I should have made 1.7BTC.  Instead I made 1.55BTC.  On a conventional pool with low variance, I would be a lot closer to 1.7BTC.

Granted, this is not specific to p2pool.  The same logic applies to any pool with high variance.  What's unique to p2pool is the high share difficulty (increases variance) and rejects (also increases variance).

Is there a flaw in my logic?

M


Yes. You're assuming that you'll have bad luck now and good luck later, but you have to look at all possible outcomes to calculate what you expect to happen.

Using the average return for your case and the case where you have good luck now and bad luck later happens to be enough for the calculated return to be what it should be:

First period: supposed to mine 1 BTC, mine 1.5 BTC instead (+50% luck)
Second period: supposed to mine 0.5 BTC, mine 0.25 BTC instead (-50% luck)

You made 1.75 BTC, more than expected.

Average of 1.25 BTC and 1.75 BTC = 1.5 BTC, what you're "supposed to mine."

Good point about the average. 

However, when you factor in the additional variance introduced by high share difficulty and reject rate, and you get more variance than you would elsewhere. 

Yes?

M

MMinerMonitor author, monitor/auto/schedule reboots/alerts/remote/MobileMiner for Ants and Spondoolies! Latest (5.2). MPoolMonitor author, monitor stats/workers for most pools, global BTC stats (current/nxt diff/USD val/hashrate/calc)! Latest (v4.2) 
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forrestv
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January 17, 2014, 02:35:39 AM
 #7395

Good point about the average. 

However, when you factor in the additional variance introduced by high share difficulty and reject rate, and you get more variance than you would elsewhere. 

Yes?

M

P2Pool definitely has more variance than other pools; I'm not sure if it makes sense to say that difficulty changes contribute to P2Pool's variance more than they do to other pools (but I wouldn't be surprised if that were somehow true...)

Difficulty changes definitely effectively "magnify" past variance relative to current earnings, at least.

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IYFTech
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January 17, 2014, 02:37:11 AM
 #7396

Hello again p2poolers  Grin

OK, decided to switch my node on again after upgrading to 13.10. I'm struggling with getting slush's stratum proxy to play with p2pool so thought I'd ask here - does it work with p2pool? If so, can someone give me a heads up?

Ta muchly  Grin

Anyone?  Wink

-- Smiley  Thank you for smoking  Smiley --  If you paid VAT to dogie for items you should read this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1018906.0
theonewhowaskazu
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January 17, 2014, 02:53:30 AM
 #7397

The biggest problem with p2pool is the fact that it reduces my Jupiter's hashrate SIGNIFICANTLY. Hopefully either KNC or P2pool devs will fix that soon.

theonewhowaskazu
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January 17, 2014, 02:54:03 AM
 #7398

Hello again p2poolers  Grin

OK, decided to switch my node on again after upgrading to 13.10. I'm struggling with getting slush's stratum proxy to play with p2pool so thought I'd ask here - does it work with p2pool? If so, can someone give me a heads up?

Ta muchly  Grin

Anyone?  Wink

From my experience, it doesn't seem to work with p2pool at all. The BFG one will work, though.

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January 17, 2014, 03:07:24 AM
 #7399

Hello again p2poolers  Grin

OK, decided to switch my node on again after upgrading to 13.10. I'm struggling with getting slush's stratum proxy to play with p2pool so thought I'd ask here - does it work with p2pool? If so, can someone give me a heads up?

Ta muchly  Grin

Anyone?  Wink

From my experience, it doesn't seem to work with p2pool at all. The BFG one will work, though.

Thanks for the answer theonewhowaskazu.

I used to use the bfgminer one, but it does not support longpoll & I was getting over 30% DOA/stale/rejects with p2pool. Is there a reason why it works with every other pool perfectly well but not p2pool? Seems a bit strange eh?

Peace.

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January 17, 2014, 03:11:50 AM
 #7400

I get these quite often.  Is this from the miner connections or the Bitcoin-Qt connection?  Is it something I should worry about?

2014-01-16 18:59:38.826198 > Unhandled error in Deferred:
2014-01-16 18:59:38.826283 > Unhandled Error
2014-01-16 18:59:38.826316 > Traceback (most recent call last):
2014-01-16 18:59:38.826344 > Failure: twisted.internet.defer.TimeoutError: in ReplyMatcher

Thanks!
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