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Author Topic: (Closed) Butter Bot!: Premier Bitstamp, and BTC-E EMA Trading Platform (Closed)  (Read 274748 times)
NginUS
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November 20, 2013, 03:24:19 AM
 #1381

I think it's not supposed to be arbitrarily executing trades immediately upon being enabled. Fix that bug & no threshold fields are necessary.
boozezela
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November 20, 2013, 03:47:53 AM
 #1382

I think it's not supposed to be arbitrarily executing trades immediately upon being enabled. Fix that bug & no threshold fields are necessary.

It would be the simplest option: wait for a cross to happen and buy/sell depending on the cross and the availability of BTC/FIAT.
NginUS
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November 20, 2013, 03:53:46 AM
 #1383

I think it's not supposed to be arbitrarily executing trades immediately upon being enabled. Fix that bug & no threshold fields are necessary.

It would be the simplest option: wait for a cross to happen and buy/sell depending on the cross and the availability of BTC/FIAT.

That's what I had originally assumed it would do, but it surprised me. Worse than that, it kept sending me sell triggered messages after I disabled it. There was no more BTC left at the time so I don't know if it would've actually sold while disabled or if it was just email ignoring the disabled command.

Undortunately I closed Chrome in order to stop its buggy behavior, and thus lost the pertinent logs for debugging. So once I get more BTC, I'll try to recreate it so I can send logs so it can be fixed. :-)
uck
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November 20, 2013, 04:41:44 AM
 #1384

When you turn on the bot, it should ASK you to, if you have your position wrong for what it thinks, to manually trade to get it where it thinks it should be, otherwise it should wait for the first cross.

NginUS
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November 20, 2013, 04:55:45 AM
 #1385

Here I go again with another feature request.

Settings profiles so we can save different kinds for different market conditions. Also for there to be several immutable stock presets profiles for different conditions, too.

Put it in a drop down menu like Windows classic desktop themes were.
vesperwillow
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November 20, 2013, 05:00:16 AM
 #1386

Here I go again with another feature request.

Settings profiles so we can save different kinds for different market conditions. Also for there to be several immutable stock presets profiles for different conditions, too.

Put it in a drop down menu like Windows classic desktop themes were.

You and I sound alike. See Pablo, he's requesting the same stuff I did haha. Power in numbers!

NginUS
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November 20, 2013, 05:04:14 AM
 #1387

Here I go again with another feature request.

Settings profiles so we can save different kinds for different market conditions. Also for there to be several immutable stock presets profiles for different conditions, too.

Put it in a drop down menu like Windows classic desktop themes were.

You and I sound alike. See Pablo, he's requesting the same stuff I did haha. Power in numbers!

I think I've heard more people than us who like the idea, its been discussed.

Today especially I could have used an alternate stock preset today is why I bring it up.
NginUS
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November 20, 2013, 06:02:39 AM
 #1388

I think it would be a good thing if the devs were to make a training video that detailed each & every setting & how they affect trading. Explaining like I'm 5, lol.

They could teach things like why & when you'd want to have negative values set, , etc.
PuertoLibre
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November 20, 2013, 06:58:39 AM
 #1389

I think it would be a good thing if the devs were to make a training video that detailed each & every setting & how they affect trading. Explaining like I'm 5, lol.

They could teach things like why & when you'd want to have negative values set, , etc.
Not a bad idea...

They should totally make a techsmith based type of summary.

http://www.techsmith.com/camtasia.html

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PuertoLibre
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November 20, 2013, 09:40:00 AM
Last edit: November 20, 2013, 10:44:58 AM by PuertoLibre
 #1390

@ Interested folks who don't quite understand how Butter Bot does things:



If you look at the above graph, this is how EMA values are read by the bot at 1 hour or 2 hour intervals.

If you look at the first arrow in orange, it shows that EMA (and butterbot) works by measuring deviations from two different EMA values and spits out a difference measurement. From this it generates a column called "DIFF". A negative (down trend) in red means that the deviation is downward, while a positive one in green is in a up trend.

If you look carefully, you'll notice that even though the deviation is growing, butter averages it out over whatever the update period is.

You can have a very large price drop and butter will show a proportion of change based on it's update frequency. A gradual price drop over a protracted period might not set off your threshold values! <--- important point

Depending on your settings you will find that butter (can and does) report a "DIFF" of -0.2% at two VERY different price points even as the market continues to drop. It is a deviation measurement as the numbers it is using are (EMA values) that change over time.

Sharp drops [depending on your update frequency]  in a very short period of time register as a larger "DIFF". While long term drops register as a very small DIFF over a larger period of updates.



=============================

A potential mistake you might make when using the bot is the following:

If you mistake the DIFF measurements as being based on price...you'd be setting up the bot in the wrong way.

So if you set a threshold value (for either buy or sell) of a very large value, [1%+] then you are instructing the bot to only react when the DIFF value it measures has a very sudden change in market prices based on the two EMA values you have chosen. (NOT based on the price)

Your thresholds determine when the bot reacts. Larger values means the bot reacts at sudden changes between updates. The smaller thresholds describe smaller and more gradual corrections [up or down].

Butter bot treats all threshold values as positive numbers. <---- IMPORTANT POINT

Placing any negative number in the threshold does NOT mean the bot will look for price drops based on price. It will default to any DIFF larger than 0.

In other words, if you use -0.2 as a buy threshold, Butter bot treats the threshold value as "any DIFF number greater than 0". So you should use positive numbers instead in any of the 4 threshold settings which will not leave you confused as to what you wanted the bot to look for.

==========================

If you are the type of person who is looking for sharp drops, you should change your update period to a shorter value. This will tell butter to update more frequently and make measurements often.

If you are the type of person who is looking for trends over many hours and days (or weeks) you should use a longer update interval. (1 hour or higher). Butter will then ignore any sharp drops and rises and focus on the long term EMA deviations.

Basically, a longer update period will cause butter to smooth out sudden changes in favor of long term changes.

Shorter update periods will allow butter to react to sudden moment-to-moment large deviations (drops and rises) with extreme sensitivity. But beware because it may pay attention to noise rather than trends.


============================

I would suggest (and only a suggestion) that if you are in a down market (as we are right now) you focus on trends. If we are in a uptrend market, then you might want to use a fast update period and high DIFF setting.
Casimir1904
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November 20, 2013, 10:17:42 AM
 #1391

I Bought the bot but I don't get the advantage of this bot?
When I test settings it show profit but I don't see this profit?

I see $ is growing yes but when I Calculate against BTC I see BTC amount is going lower?

Default settings 2y test:

21.11.2011 23:00:00   buy   2.270    $99.40   -0.60%
That are 43.788546256 BTC

After 2y:
20.11.2013 09:00:00   sell   535.900    $12225.74   12125.74%
That is sell of 22.813472663 BTC
you sell it as 12125.4% profit but in fact its loss of 21BTC ?

I would prefer to make more BTC instead of USD...

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madpoet
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November 20, 2013, 11:45:24 AM
 #1392

It is designed to make a profit in fiat currency, not in btc.
Casimir1904
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November 20, 2013, 12:01:35 PM
 #1393

It is designed to make a profit in fiat currency, not in btc.

ok then i must be to stupid to understand it?

43 btc * actual rate = always more then 22 * actual rate?
Bot says it "made" 12k
When another person bought 2y ago 43 btc and didnt trade he would have 20k+...
I don't see where it is making Profit then when it is losing money.. its just making profit when btc goes higher but with less then just holding the btc...

maybe my math is to bad to understand it correct but in no way i see making it profit in usd or btc...

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PuertoLibre
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November 20, 2013, 12:20:12 PM
 #1394

It is designed to make a profit in fiat currency, not in btc.

ok then i must be to stupid to understand it?

43 btc * actual rate = always more then 22 * actual rate?
Bot says it "made" 12k
When another person bought 2y ago 43 btc and didnt trade he would have 20k+...
I don't see where it is making Profit then when it is losing money.. its just making profit when btc goes higher but with less then just holding the btc...

maybe my math is to bad to understand it correct but in no way i see making it profit in usd or btc...
You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k (with this bot). When it comes back down to roughly about the same level as you started, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with. With each long term increase and decrease you should be holding more USD and BTC. If it only goes in one direction then you'd be losing BTC over the long term.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

(Disclaimer: EMA is probably not the most efficient route to compare to a buy and hold strategy, it is considered a "lagging indicator".)
Casimir1904
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November 20, 2013, 12:26:15 PM
 #1395


You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then you at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k. When it comes back down to roughly about the same level, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

I'm looking for longterm profit, i runned the test with different settings and i never got a way where it increase btc holding...
I'll continue testing...

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PuertoLibre
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November 20, 2013, 12:29:20 PM
 #1396

In either case, you should be encouraging B-Bot use and adoption. In the end, the more bots there are, the more volatile the markets will become.
PuertoLibre
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November 20, 2013, 12:37:25 PM
 #1397


You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then you at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k. When it comes back down to roughly about the same level, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

I'm looking for longterm profit, i runned the test with different settings and i never got a way where it increase btc holding...
I'll continue testing...
Probably because different settings are required to make what I mentioned above a profitable scenario.

One settings is good for uptrends, others are much better for downtrends. The bot is currently too simple to make effective decisions based on more than one trend. It will do "okay" in all scenarios. Fine tuned settings for one particular type of market will make it work very good in one direction, then switch, and play a different card.

The current B-Bot requires a lot of refinement and many parameters to do what people really want it to do. Till it gets it, we will just have to babysit it every day to assess what the current scenario is playing out as. And adjusting as appropriate.

For example, I knew when it peaked at 900 that B-Bot wasn't going to react very well to a flash crash on most current users settings. So I turned it off when I noticed the market was rising too fast in 1 day and did manual trading while expecting the inevitable retracement.

In about 15 minutes it crashed 300 dollars, sure, it recovered for a number of hours, but if the timing was off, B-Bot would have cost people quite a bit of their earnings. There is definitely lots of room for improvement.
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November 20, 2013, 12:44:46 PM
 #1398

Any issues with the Bot Server side?

I woke up this morning and checked my bot and its showed no activity since 1 am

I am on Bitstamp and use 30 min checks..

I restarted by Browesr and now it just sits there saying Loading on the Bot screen..(Had to leave for work so not sure it ever came up)


My Internete is up and I can get to other web sites so dont think its my connection..

No one else having issues?




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November 20, 2013, 12:49:34 PM
 #1399

Hi Guys,
I have to Qs to the users here and Pablo:

1) As back testing engine was nicely implemented into bbot wouldn't it be possible to use that mechanism and test all the possible EMA pairs and maybe even sell/buy thresholds against the past data and precisely tell which one is the best (at the moment)? Or this is the way you do it Pablo to tell us the best initial parameters? I just saw that EMA returns table created by Gombo's and was thinking is it possible to automated with bbot back testing engine.

2) In many places mentioning about trading BTCs it's mentioned that one should not keep neither bitcoins nor fiat on the exchange account (except the time of executing trade of course Wink. In the light of different hacker attacks and even exchanges disappearances it make sense although while using bots become a little troublesome. I was wondering then about your opinions in the matter; do you think it's safe to keep the money on exchange or it's a worthy precaution to keep it in you (offline?) wallet and transfer only after the  'first threshold' email?



P.S Sorry Pablo for not sending you the logs last time, API came back to normal after couple of hours. I'll try to stay cool(er) the next time ;P
       
tralala33
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November 20, 2013, 12:51:22 PM
 #1400


You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then you at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k. When it comes back down to roughly about the same level, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

I'm looking for longterm profit, i runned the test with different settings and i never got a way where it increase btc holding...
I'll continue testing...

Please note that you are testing configuration over a very long time period. In reality there different phases in the market where different settings work best (e.g longer time frames during slow and steady trends to filter out the small movements, smaller time frames and lower EMA values during triangle formations to catch the breakout ASAP etc) so  real profit can  much higher when you monitor the market and adapt the settings from time to time.

And finally to some (to me at least) running a bot is not only about maximizing profit but also about managing risk. I definitely sleep better knowing that the bot would get me out in case of any unforseen circumstances Smiley
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