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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 1049455 times)
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weisoq
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May 16, 2019, 09:49:53 AM
 #7861

Taxes on crypto are getting too complicated and dangerous ...

...Devcoin is worth very little, but the accounting fees and risks are still high. It's a lot of hassle for little gain.
Because of this, unfortunately, I am going to resign from devcoin
Thanks for your efforts UTB, and for what was a promising idea.

You're right in inferring that many don't properly consider tax issues. I was careful about where and how traded but it still took a long time to collate past info to calculate potential liability. Not something I want to do again (or even could do given how many exchanges have disappeared) and it's one reason I don't play any more.

All the best
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May 16, 2019, 01:50:29 PM
 #7862

I'm sorry for leaving. I wish there was another way, but I don't see one.

Sorry to hear this and good luck with future.Will Devcoin project survive in your opinion?

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May 16, 2019, 03:19:30 PM
 #7863

Taxes on crypto are getting too complicated and dangerous:
https://www.reddit.com/r/tax/comments/9tcnu8/did_i_ruin_my_life_by_trading_crypto/

The problems are the following:

1. The tax code for crypto is ambiguous, there is no widely agreed upon way to calculate taxes.
2. When exchanges fail, the trading information is lost, so it can be impossible to calculate trading gains and losses.
3. Accounting fees can be very high for crypto trading, sometimes more than the actual money made.
4. It is possible to owe more in taxes than was actually cashed out.
5. The rules change, and some of those changes are retroactive, so even if taxes are filed correctly today, in future tax collectors can claim that the taxes were not filed correctly and impose arbitrary penalties.

Devcoin is worth very little, but the accounting fees and risks are still high. It's a lot of hassle for little gain.

Because of this, unfortunately, I am going to resign from devcoin, until taxes are simplified or there's a big tax free cryptocoin jurisdiction, which I don't expect to happen for a long time if ever.

I don't want anyone to get in trouble because of something I'm doing or developing. I'll do the accounting for round 94, after that devcoin developers can handle the receiver files however they want.

I'm sorry for leaving. I wish there was another way, but I don't see one.

Sorry to hear you are leaving us Unthinkingbit, your work and devotion to devcoin will be missed but I want to say a huge thank you for all your efforts over the years and completely understandable your decision to step down now rather than getting into trouble with the tax man further down the road.

If there is anything we can do as a community to help the transition of you leaving please let us know.

Many thanks again

Fuzzybear

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May 16, 2019, 08:36:30 PM
 #7864

Also a big thank you from me. You've made a great contribution to Devcoin.

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realdantreccia
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May 17, 2019, 08:03:41 PM
 #7865

Someone call Bahrain I hear they have a carousel full of funds for us.

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DVC: 1EP4QqKq42kpfuZB3XQSyscrWNYRt158Et
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May 18, 2019, 09:27:01 AM
 #7866

Someone call Bahrain I hear they have a carousel full of funds for us.

Imminent!

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May 18, 2019, 10:40:16 PM
Last edit: May 18, 2019, 11:06:13 PM by markm
 #7867

Hmm does anyone else remember when politicians were talking about taxing things like magick swords in online fantasy games?

The argument was that since someone managed to sell such a sword on E-bay, everyone who obtained such a sword in such a game should pay tax on it.

Which of course is insane since past performance is no proof of future performance so it was not even known whether anyone would ever manage to find a buyer for such a sword again, let alone at such a price.

Thus really it only makes any sense to measure how much fiat currency you pay to play online games (such as altcoin trading games as well as other games, whether or not the game itself includes various currencies of its own) and how much fiat currency you end up taking home at such time as you manage to sell some of your game "stuff" for fiat.

Until you actually get fiat back to a bank account or physical cash or something held by some kind of licensed or registered (and insured) "custodian" you really don't have a thing.

Even if you get cryptocoins home into a wallet of your own where you are the only person who has the keys you still don't really have a thing, since as we have seen over and over and over again you cannot know whether you will ever manage to sell any of it for any fiat.

It is all basically just virtual crap, game stuff, that might or might not ever have a buyer. Finding a buyer might even involve a lot of marketing on our part, or bribing a so called "exchange" to "list" the thing and then hoping the "exchange" isn't just going to run off with it all.

You could have billions of magick swords, but what is the chance you will be able to sell them all? And how much will the last few be worth once you have flooded such market as there might be with the first few billions of them? It is all just virtual crap until you receive something "real", which let's face it you might never do.

Sure it makes sense that the guy who sold one magick sword on E-bay pay tax on that income. If playing the game it was in was a business rather than a hobby to him he probably should also be declaring whatever he had to pay to play the game, probably including some portion of his internet connection fees, as business expense. But how many magick swords he ever had, how many dragons he had to kill to get it, and even whether he actually got it by trading a magick shield for it in the game, is crazy to even try to keep track of.

One by one maybe some ultra-special cryptocoins might end up being regarded as in some sense "real money", but even bitcoin might not be there yet and certainly the vast majority of coins will likely never get there. Digitised securities might get there much sooner to the extent that they truly represent something real, the way some so-called stablecoins claim to do.

But it makes no sense to count your purported "balances" in unregistered, uninsured so-called "exchanges" as in any way real until they actually get stuff back to you before running off with it or supposedly getting "hacked".

That is my position and so far the income tax folks seem to accept it even though I am way behind in paying income tax on the actual fiat that actually did manage to end up arriving at my bank.

I do not even know, and CANNOT know, how many cryptocoins I actually HAVE until various possible future things happen, such as Cryptsy reporting whether they have any of my coins still and whether they are ever going to send them to me, and Cryptopia similarly, and gosh I have lost count of how many other "exchanges" that "flew by night", and of course even if I had disks in safe-deposit boxes I have enough experience with disks, and "backups", to know that I cannot even be sure any of those disks are even readable, let alone are backups of uncorrupted data, until I try to recover the data on them and actually use it. Then as mentioned previously I do not know whether there will even be any market for that data even assuming it IS uncorrupted. So I literally do not know how many coins I even own, of what kinds.

All I really CAN know is how much I paid for computers, electricity to power them, rent for rooms to keep them in, internet connections for them, repair and maintenance of them, and how much cash and bank-deposits in fiat eventually resulted from my use of such things.

The U.S.A. seems a bit insane though. I wonder, if they knew Satoshi's heir(s) were in the U.S.A. would they be trying to tax them on the purported value of all the bitcoins that they, as his or her or their heirs, presumably "inherited", regardless of whether they ever actually manage to find and use the keys to those addresses and sell any of those coins for fiat?

-MarkM-

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realdantreccia
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May 19, 2019, 01:49:07 AM
 #7868

Someone call Bahrain I hear they have a carousel full of funds for us.

Imminent!

I don't have Sunkeys I'm sorry

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May 19, 2019, 08:44:20 AM
 #7869

..Since this decision is tax-driven, is it possible you can continue until the end of your current tax year?
The additional time will allow us to communicate and vote of the options available for continuation of the receiver file functions.

ctya

I am willing to do the accounting for at least a few more months, if necessary. I will certainly stop by the end of the current tax year. Lately, there has not been a change in devcoin work, for example the account_93.csv file is identical to the account_94.csv file.

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May 19, 2019, 08:46:20 AM
 #7870

Each round, to place the receiver file in the custodian's sites, do the following:

1.
Ensure that you can use python 2.x, and git, on your computer.

2.
Download the Unthinkingbit/charity github folder to a folder in your drive if you don't already have it:
https://github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity

3.
Copy the last devtome_analytics_(x).csv file and rename it devtome_analytics_(x+1).csv
Copy the last ongoing_(x).csv file and rename it ongoing_(x+1).csv

4.
Open a console in your folder.

5.
Run the following python scripts:
python rating.py -round (x+1)
python devtome.py -round (x+1)
python marketing.py -round (x+1)
python account.py -round (x+1)

6.
Upload the newly copied and generated files with git:
git add account_(x+1).csv
git add devtome_(x+1).csv
git add devtome_analytics_(x+1).csv
git add devtome_earnings_(x+1).csv
git add marketing_earnings_(x+1).csv
git add ongoing_(x+1).csv
git add rating_(x+1).csv
git add rating_earnings_(x+1).csv
git add receiver_(x+1).csv
git commit -a -m maintenance
git push origin master

7.
Contact Markm and ask him to generate his copy of the account and receiver file by running the account script on his computer:
python account.py -round (x+1)

and ask him to upload his files and reply to you.

8.
After Mark confirms that he generated the account and receiver file, contact the file custodians, and ask them to upload his file.

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May 19, 2019, 12:26:37 PM
 #7871


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May 24, 2019, 11:47:38 AM
Merited by Vlad2Vlad (3)
 #7872

Someone call Bahrain I hear they have a carousel full of funds for us.

Imminent!


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May 30, 2019, 09:14:35 PM
Merited by Vlad2Vlad (20)
 #7873


The tax problem is easily solved. From now on donate all coins to entities like Wikipedia, if not collected by the entity within a month burn them up or try with another entity.
There is no need for you to collect other dvc. You got millions at least.
Be innovative, risk it all, or watch dvc die.
Dvc has such a great potential.
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June 01, 2019, 06:04:02 PM
 #7874


The tax problem is easily solved. From now on donate all coins to entities like Wikipedia, if not collected by the entity within a month burn them up or try with another entity.
There is no need for you to collect other dvc. You got millions at least.
Be innovative, risk it all, or watch dvc die.
Dvc has such a great potential.



If its worth nothing and you can buy nothing with it then it has zero potential Cry

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realdantreccia
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June 03, 2019, 06:11:38 PM
Merited by Vlad2Vlad (7), hornetsnest (3)
 #7875


The tax problem is easily solved. From now on donate all coins to entities like Wikipedia, if not collected by the entity within a month burn them up or try with another entity.
There is no need for you to collect other dvc. You got millions at least.
Be innovative, risk it all, or watch dvc die.
Dvc has such a great potential.


It doesn't just have great potential, it has a great future ahead of it. I have no say over the disbursement - but I agree, send it to Wikipedia.  Or maybe promote the reasons why its special instead of being so coy about it.  That isn't specifically addressed to you - I'm saying that to everyone (especially those who started this topic).

I'm just one man.  You can slam me all you guys want, but I am confident in DVC and I will not shake on that stance.

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June 06, 2019, 07:48:45 PM
 #7876

Are the single satoshi days finally coming to an end?

If Freiexchange gains some traction with the new UI, it could draw a lot of attention to DVC. Price discovery will be interesting..
realdantreccia
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June 07, 2019, 03:36:54 AM
 #7877

Are the single satoshi days finally coming to an end?

If Freiexchange gains some traction with the new UI, it could draw a lot of attention to DVC. Price discovery will be interesting..

Wouldn't that be nice. I think we had that convo on twitter. Smiley

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Vlad2Vlad
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June 07, 2019, 03:37:08 AM
 #7878

Are the single satoshi days finally coming to an end?

If Freiexchange gains some traction with the new UI, it could draw a lot of attention to DVC. Price discovery will be interesting..

Would be nice but not sure a better site will do much but you never know.  

iXcoin - Welcome to the F U T U R E!
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June 07, 2019, 02:33:38 PM
 #7879

I'm in the process of making it happen Wink
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June 07, 2019, 03:47:58 PM
 #7880

I'm in the process of making it happen Wink

Buying up the book?   Grin

Altilly has the most coins available right now I think and cheaper too. 

iXcoin - Welcome to the F U T U R E!
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