Bitcoin Forum
May 26, 2018, 12:14:10 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.16.0  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 [352] 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 666092 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic.
develCuy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 279
Merit: 250


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2017, 11:19:43 PM
 #7021

Feedback is impossible until you make firm proposals/justification. What changes you want, why and how.
Reiterating a purpose and focusing on secondary issue of a swap is not a plan.

OK, maybe I assumed most people that cares about Devcoin realize why we should fix things rather than letting them stay as they are.

The only reason for me is that Devcoin is currently not sustainable by design, that is why I'm proposing a new IRS and RDS, and to hardfork with a DRS. So I'm taking time to discuss every aspect of my proposal openly in this forum, the change needs all help possible!

Let me elaborate a few things on why Devcoin is not sustainable:

1. Most rewards (bounties, staff, devtome, minning, etc) are paid for doing absolutely nothing.
2. Devtome is abandoned and nobody wants to take care of it
3. There is only have ONE exchange accepting Devcoin, and there will hardly be other accepting it
4. Development is stuck, source code is outdated, there is no development team, nor any maintenance (hello security!)
5. Currently Devcoin is not creating any value at all, it is just a merged mined coin that slowly dumps on every cycle

In short, Devcoin is vanishing as we discuss, somebody must do something! How about US doing something for Devcoin?

You know something? I'm already working hard to create assets for Devcoin, it will be backed by real assets from day zero, YET first things first. Devcoin needs purpose back into the minds of core team, are you in or what?

1527293650
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1527293650

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1527293650
Reply with quote  #2

1527293650
Report to moderator
1527293650
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1527293650

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1527293650
Reply with quote  #2

1527293650
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1527293650
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1527293650

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1527293650
Reply with quote  #2

1527293650
Report to moderator
1527293650
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1527293650

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1527293650
Reply with quote  #2

1527293650
Report to moderator
1527293650
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1527293650

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1527293650
Reply with quote  #2

1527293650
Report to moderator
markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2072
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
August 24, 2017, 01:02:31 AM
 #7022

It is not abandoned, DeVCoin was created by Unthinkingbit and I and we are still here and still doing our parts.

The argument that it would take 2.2 bitcoins per month to buy all the minted coins per month at one BTC-satoshi each merely shows how many years of such buying power were stolen from us by Cryptsy, if we get our bitcoins back from Cryptsy we can keep buying for years.

Historically I was buying at 3 satoshis and selling for 4 satoshis consistently, plus growing the buy-side order-books stronger and stronger, I was in fact approaching the point where people could dump ALL the existing coins and there was buy-side already sitting on the exchanges waiting to buy them all.

It simply takes time to make up a loss of 134+ bitcoins of buy-side order-book.

I have bought some litecoins and started to build up the LTC/DVC order-books on CopinGather, it will take time but over time we will eventually re-build the liquidity that Cryptsy stole from us.

There are lots of assets etc that folk can trade their DeVCoins in for, see http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

I was just about to set up DeVCoins on the HORIZON network when HORIZON ran out of exchanges and people started saying it was dead. I am now looking at using the STELLAR network, which is based on Ripple so hopefully will allow us to have trading-pairs that do not insinuate the platform's native coin (LUMENS) into every pair, so I think maybe on STELLAR we can det up direct trading pairs between DeVCoin and IXCoin, I0Coin, United Kingdom Britcoins, Martian BotCoins, General Mining Corp scrip, General Retirement Corp scrip and so on and so on without anyof them being forced to have to pair with the platform's own coin as a mediator. If that is so STELLAR network should be even more useful than the HORIZON network. It remains to be seen though whether we can get their code for "gateways" working to automate conversion between on-blockchain coins and STELLAR-network tokens representing such coins.

If people are being paid for doing nothing that needs to be addressed.

We also should either lower the shares per word for Devtome writing or increase the shares for software development, and create bounties for the few little functionalities the free open source games need to mesh them together better, such as in FreeCiv a starship flag for units along with routines for exporting starships, with destination info, from a running instance of FreeCiv and import into another running instance of FreeCiv corresponding to the designated destination, hopefully incorporating a check of the distance to the destination planet before export so people don't send their starships on voyages they do not have sufficient movement-points to complete. That will become more and more useful ans the number of starships travelling between planets increases, right now we have to do it by saving both games, hacking the savegame file to remove starship(s) from one game and add them to another, then re-start the games. That is kind of awkward.

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
weisoq
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 715
Merit: 500


View Profile
August 24, 2017, 10:57:17 AM
 #7023


OK, maybe I assumed most people that cares about Devcoin realize why we should fix things rather than letting them stay as they are.

The only reason for me is that Devcoin is currently not sustainable by design, that is why I'm proposing a new IRS and RDS, and to hardfork with a DRS. So I'm taking time to discuss every aspect of my proposal openly in this forum, the change needs all help possible!

Let me elaborate a few things on why Devcoin is not sustainable:

1. Most rewards (bounties, staff, devtome, minning, etc) are paid for doing absolutely nothing.
2. Devtome is abandoned and nobody wants to take care of it
3. There is only have ONE exchange accepting Devcoin, and there will hardly be other accepting it
4. Development is stuck, source code is outdated, there is no development team, nor any maintenance (hello security!)
5. Currently Devcoin is not creating any value at all, it is just a merged mined coin that slowly dumps on every cycle

In short, Devcoin is vanishing as we discuss, somebody must do something! How about US doing something for Devcoin?

You know something? I'm already working hard to create assets for Devcoin, it will be backed by real assets from day zero, YET first things first. Devcoin needs purpose back into the minds of core team, are you in or what?
In what though?

I'm not saying things are perfect; argued similarly on the model for years.

Again, my opinion is you need to put conversion to the side and lay detail on the table. There may be (dis)agreement. Perhaps changes must be encompassed in a new coin (per markm above). But successful decentralised change demands explanation and consensus.

e.g. Generation: unlimited, limited, constant, dynamic, merged, standalone, levels, rate of change, why, why not, how? ...

I'm only being blunt to try keeping this pragmatic and avoid going round in circles again. No point inferring any other motive as we've been here before, but will leave you to it.

wiser
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1019



View Profile WWW
August 25, 2017, 02:12:55 AM
 #7024

I thought I'd chime in with a few points. Back when I got started writing for the Devtome, Devcoin was one of just a handful of cryptocoins on the scene, meaning it didn't have much competition. Now there are over 500 cryptocoins in existence, some of which are so fundamentally solid and profitable that they are attracting the interest of venture capitalists and hedge fund managers. This means we can learn even more from the successful coins and honestly stack up Devcoin against them to see what would need to be changed in order to be competitive.

The following are a few observations I have about what it takes to make a successful cryptocurrency in today's industry:

1. More and more, it is important for a new coin project to be more than just a coin. It must be a complete ecosystem. This often means multiple tokens and interlocking systems. Some good examples are the emerging VIVA project (vivaco.in), Steemit (with its Steem, Steem Power and Steem Dollars tokens), Ethereum and NEM with their block chains capable of supporting other tokens.

2. There has to be genuine value supporting the coin. This means infrastructure that makes the coin easier to use or adds value to it in some way. Bitcoin has a lot of that (example, various trading platforms, Coinbase, payment processors, websites which sell quality products and accept Bitcoin payments) which has been added on by third parties. However a new altcoin needs to have some of that value added right from the beginning by the development team itself. Some other good examples of coins with value added infrastructure include DNotes and Steemit.

3. There has to be a development team. It can't be a one man show. The bigger and better organized the team, the better chance the coin has. A development team that runs the enterprise like a genuine business is even better. This means it can't all be about coding, though that is important. There have to be others on the team who handle the outreach and marketing and who tell the coders the features needed to make the coin user friendly for non coders (which is most of the people you hope will adopt your coin).

4. A coin needs a built in incentive to tie up the supply and keep it off the market. This means that it is in people's self interest to hold onto the coin for the long haul. Idealism or faith in the coin is not enough. If I am going to hold your coin there has to be something in it for me both now and in the future. The simplest way to do this is to offer some kind of interest equivalent whereby my holding onto the coin earns me a rate of return in the form of new coins or some other token. DNotes has the DNotes vault which pays monthly "interest" to all who hold coins in it for set amounts of time (the penalty for early withdrawal being that you lose the earned interest). Diamond Coin has a cloud mining operation where people earn Diamonds based on how much Bitcoin they have donated to the operation. Any Proof of Stake coin already incentivizes people to hold the coin and run the wallet.

I have always believed that Devcoin's biggest weakness as it works right now is that it incentivizes earning and dumping, not holding. Then to add insult to injury when it became known or suspected that people earning Devcoins were dumping them, they were often harshly repudiated here (not called out by name or anything but it was clear that those who dumped were considered to be bad for the coin,). In order to hold onto Devcoins you had to be altruistic towards it and basically take the hit from others dumping, and that is just not going to be sustainable because most of us plain aren't altruistic like that. This is probably the most important change Devcoin needs to make. The coin needs to be coded in to incentivize holding rather than dumping.

Related to this, it must be assumed that people will game the system if it is beneficial to them to do so. You need to engineer your system in such a way that there is no benefit to attempting to gain the system and that using the system in the way you intend is what gives the greatest benefit to the end user. That can be very challenging to accomplish but I believe it is possible and the successful (and not so successful) coins now out there have a lot to teach us about what kind of things need to be written into the code. The code should also be flexible enough that when you find a loophole you don't want, you can fix it with an update or fork.

5. The development team needs to have a good reason to create buy support for the coin on the open market. Again, altruism is not enough. In the case of Diamond coin, the developers need to buy Diamond in order to pay the weekly payouts from the cloud mining operation. If the developers aren't buying the coin, then others need to do so for reasons of self interest. With the exception of the speculators who are there to profit from trading itself, the reason that anyone else would buy the coin has to be because they need the coin. You need the coin in order to gain the benefit from accumulating and holding it, or you need it to pay someone with it, or you need it to buy something with it. An altruistic desire to prop up the coin's value is not enough and won't be sustainable long term.

6. The coin needs to be attractive to speculators. Speculators are important because they provide liquidity for everyone else, meaning others can easily buy or sell the coin at a consistent value (not too much difference between top buy and sell requests). So whatever it is that makes speculators go "wow, I want to speculate on this coin!" is what your coin needs to have so that everyone else can have the needed liquidity to get into and out of the coin at will.

7. The coin needs to have a solid community of people who are there because being part of this community will better their financial lives in some way. They should believe in the coin but that belief should stem from solid fundamentals and the perception that this coin will do good things for their bottom line. In order to nurture this community it is very important to have basic courtesy and professionalism wherever that community gathers. That community needs to be growing.

There are probably a couple more points that I have missed, but what I have shared is a good starting point. How does Devcoin do on each of these fundamentals? How could it be changed or forked to excel in those fundamentals which are weak now? The honest discussion around these points could become the basis for a solid plan for how to update Devcoin to now be competitive in today's industry.

markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2072
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
August 25, 2017, 10:23:22 AM
 #7025

We can implement an "interest" type incentive simply by assigning "shares" to any share-recieving addresses that still contain coins that have not moved for a certain span of time.

By limiting this to share-receiver addresses, such as the addresses folks have on file in Devtome as the address to pay their shares to, we hopefully will at least to some extent avoid paying interest to ancient long-lost dead addresses no-one remembers their private keys to.

A better way of implementing it though might be to assign a certain number of shares, or a certain percentage of the total shares, to a "General Interest Corp" (GIC) which will pay dividends to its own shareholders and whose mandate includes holding more of the coins itself after each dividend-payment cycle than it held prior to the previous dividend-payment cycle thus ties up more and more coins itself.

So far I have avoided creating any dividend-paying assets for a few reasons:

One reason I have avoided creating dividend-paying assets is that the dividend-payment cycle tends to create sawtooth waves in the value of the asset, since the value grows as it accumulates stuff then falls when it pays some of that stuff out as dividends.

Another reason I have avoided creating dividend-paying assets is my background as Gamemaster of "Role Playing Games" (RPGs); it has been my experience in games that players typically are not doing market-investor type analysis of their dividend-paying assets but, rather, have tended to in a way possibly over-value them; they have tended to hang on to such assets stubbornly, because the mere fact that such assets keep creating new value for the player makes them hands-off earners.

Take for example an "Odin's Ring" object that creates a gold ring each day; or a "Purse of Plenty" that creates a gold coin each day, or other such objects; I have yet to encounter a player who has computed a reasonable sale price to sell such an object based on its annual earnings or suchlike; instead players have historically tended to just hang on to such objects as something that will ensure their character keeps getting richer even if the player vanishes for a decade or few decades failing to play at all. Maybe it is simply too much trouble to try to bend their minds around how to compute a price, or maybe it is partly there are not a lot of active markets in such trinkets so they do not have other "interest-bearing" trinkets against which to compare relative price vs earnings ratios.

Take for example "General Holding Corp", known outside the game as "General Hosting Corp". It charges the civilisations on the FreeCiv planets "hosting fees" intended to cover the projected cost of maintaining "OpenSimulator" three-dimensional representations ("regions") to represent the land held by those civilisations on those planets.

The actual cost of running a FreeCiv planet is far, far less than the projected cost of representing that entire planet in  "OpenSimulator"; General Holding Corp (GHC) accumulates the difference between what it charges the civilisations and what it currently actually costs the Corp to maintain the planets at the current level and scale of representation.

Since we thus far have not deployed OpenSimulator on planetary scales, this accumulates a lot, so obviously it is in the interests of the civilisations to hold enough shares of GHC to offset their civilisation-hosting fees.

This in turn would lead to a barrier-to-entry for prospective new civilisations considering joining the game, if all the shares of GHC were already owned by competing civilisations. If we insist that in order to create a civilisation within the game you must own at least one such share that makes even less incentive for anyone to part with a share, at least to anyone who does not already control a civilisation within the game.

By not paying dividends, General Holding Corp (GHC) forces players to have to sell shares if they want to "realise" any of the accrued "earnings" of the Corp. That hopefully will create enough sell-pressure over time to ensure that at least from time to time it becomes possible for aspiring civilisations to find a share to try to buy.

Another example is General Financial Corp. As can be seen from the table at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/sharesindvc.html it has accumulated value over time. If it paid dividends what would be anyone's incentive to sell any of the shares? By not paying dividends it forces holders to have to part with shares if the holders want to "realise" any of the gains.

Considering how much hassle has historically been involved in dealing with "exchanges", whereby any given asset or coin might at any time turn out not to happen to be actually "listed" at any such service, it has seemed particularly important to try to give holders some reason to actually sell something occassionally. So the giving of dividends has historically always seemed like a counter-productive idea compared to making it necessary for someone to actually somehow "make a sale" in order to "realise" any "earnings" or "profits"...

BY THE WAY, regarding "DiaMonD": that is indeed a nice coin, at some point I should probably add it into the "current conversion rates" calculations as it has been becoming more and more important to the "big picture" ever since using it as a major way of withdrawing earnings from Cryptsy. Well over 100,000 DMD so far is in our current "big picture" and it is expected to have more and more importance as part of the "reserves" that in effect are the ultimate "backing" of the coins used in the Galactic Milieu and thus effectively in "backing" DeVCoin. It will probably also eventually become associated with the in-game objects known as diamonds in the various games that serve as interfaces into the Milieu.

ALSO BY THE WAY, regarding General Holding Corp shares, you might have noticed GHC is not listed in the public pages showing share values. That is deliberate, as the Corp is not really intended to be publicly traded as ownership of its shares is intended to be by civilisations and prospective civilisations rather than by the general public.

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
develCuy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 279
Merit: 250


View Profile WWW
August 25, 2017, 02:27:40 PM
 #7026

Wonderful!! This is the kind of feedback we need for this discussion!!

I look forward to your feedback people!

I thought I'd chime in with a few points. Back when I got started writing for the Devtome, Devcoin was one of just a handful of cryptocoins on the scene, meaning it didn't have much competition. Now there are over 500 cryptocoins in existence, some of which are so fundamentally solid and profitable that they are attracting the interest of venture capitalists and hedge fund managers. This means we can learn even more from the successful coins and honestly stack up Devcoin against them to see what would need to be changed in order to be competitive.

The following are a few observations I have about what it takes to make a successful cryptocurrency in today's industry:

1. More and more, it is important for a new coin project to be more than just a coin. It must be a complete ecosystem. This often means multiple tokens and interlocking systems. Some good examples are the emerging VIVA project (vivaco.in), Steemit (with its Steem, Steem Power and Steem Dollars tokens), Ethereum and NEM with their block chains capable of supporting other tokens.

2. There has to be genuine value supporting the coin. This means infrastructure that makes the coin easier to use or adds value to it in some way. Bitcoin has a lot of that (example, various trading platforms, Coinbase, payment processors, websites which sell quality products and accept Bitcoin payments) which has been added on by third parties. However a new altcoin needs to have some of that value added right from the beginning by the development team itself. Some other good examples of coins with value added infrastructure include DNotes and Steemit.

3. There has to be a development team. It can't be a one man show. The bigger and better organized the team, the better chance the coin has. A development team that runs the enterprise like a genuine business is even better. This means it can't all be about coding, though that is important. There have to be others on the team who handle the outreach and marketing and who tell the coders the features needed to make the coin user friendly for non coders (which is most of the people you hope will adopt your coin).

4. A coin needs a built in incentive to tie up the supply and keep it off the market. This means that it is in people's self interest to hold onto the coin for the long haul. Idealism or faith in the coin is not enough. If I am going to hold your coin there has to be something in it for me both now and in the future. The simplest way to do this is to offer some kind of interest equivalent whereby my holding onto the coin earns me a rate of return in the form of new coins or some other token. DNotes has the DNotes vault which pays monthly "interest" to all who hold coins in it for set amounts of time (the penalty for early withdrawal being that you lose the earned interest). Diamond Coin has a cloud mining operation where people earn Diamonds based on how much Bitcoin they have donated to the operation. Any Proof of Stake coin already incentivizes people to hold the coin and run the wallet.

I have always believed that Devcoin's biggest weakness as it works right now is that it incentivizes earning and dumping, not holding. Then to add insult to injury when it became known or suspected that people earning Devcoins were dumping them, they were often harshly repudiated here (not called out by name or anything but it was clear that those who dumped were considered to be bad for the coin,). In order to hold onto Devcoins you had to be altruistic towards it and basically take the hit from others dumping, and that is just not going to be sustainable because most of us plain aren't altruistic like that. This is probably the most important change Devcoin needs to make. The coin needs to be coded in to incentivize holding rather than dumping.

Related to this, it must be assumed that people will game the system if it is beneficial to them to do so. You need to engineer your system in such a way that there is no benefit to attempting to gain the system and that using the system in the way you intend is what gives the greatest benefit to the end user. That can be very challenging to accomplish but I believe it is possible and the successful (and not so successful) coins now out there have a lot to teach us about what kind of things need to be written into the code. The code should also be flexible enough that when you find a loophole you don't want, you can fix it with an update or fork.

5. The development team needs to have a good reason to create buy support for the coin on the open market. Again, altruism is not enough. In the case of Diamond coin, the developers need to buy Diamond in order to pay the weekly payouts from the cloud mining operation. If the developers aren't buying the coin, then others need to do so for reasons of self interest. With the exception of the speculators who are there to profit from trading itself, the reason that anyone else would buy the coin has to be because they need the coin. You need the coin in order to gain the benefit from accumulating and holding it, or you need it to pay someone with it, or you need it to buy something with it. An altruistic desire to prop up the coin's value is not enough and won't be sustainable long term.

6. The coin needs to be attractive to speculators. Speculators are important because they provide liquidity for everyone else, meaning others can easily buy or sell the coin at a consistent value (not too much difference between top buy and sell requests). So whatever it is that makes speculators go "wow, I want to speculate on this coin!" is what your coin needs to have so that everyone else can have the needed liquidity to get into and out of the coin at will.

7. The coin needs to have a solid community of people who are there because being part of this community will better their financial lives in some way. They should believe in the coin but that belief should stem from solid fundamentals and the perception that this coin will do good things for their bottom line. In order to nurture this community it is very important to have basic courtesy and professionalism wherever that community gathers. That community needs to be growing.

There are probably a couple more points that I have missed, but what I have shared is a good starting point. How does Devcoin do on each of these fundamentals? How could it be changed or forked to excel in those fundamentals which are weak now? The honest discussion around these points could become the basis for a solid plan for how to update Devcoin to now be competitive in today's industry.

R-J-F
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 253


AKA RJF - Member since '13


View Profile
August 25, 2017, 03:09:27 PM
 #7027

I thought I'd chime in with a few points. Back when I got started writing for the Devtome, Devcoin was one of just a handful of cryptocoins on the scene, meaning it didn't have much competition. Now there are over 500 cryptocoins in existence, some of which are so fundamentally solid and profitable that they are attracting the interest of venture capitalists and hedge fund managers. This means we can learn even more from the successful coins and honestly stack up Devcoin against them to see what would need to be changed in order to be competitive.

The following are a few observations I have about what it takes to make a successful cryptocurrency in today's industry:

1. More and more, it is important for a new coin project to be more than just a coin. It must be a complete ecosystem. This often means multiple tokens and interlocking systems. Some good examples are the emerging VIVA project (vivaco.in), Steemit (with its Steem, Steem Power and Steem Dollars tokens), Ethereum and NEM with their block chains capable of supporting other tokens.

2. There has to be genuine value supporting the coin. This means infrastructure that makes the coin easier to use or adds value to it in some way. Bitcoin has a lot of that (example, various trading platforms, Coinbase, payment processors, websites which sell quality products and accept Bitcoin payments) which has been added on by third parties. However a new altcoin needs to have some of that value added right from the beginning by the development team itself. Some other good examples of coins with value added infrastructure include DNotes and Steemit.

3. There has to be a development team. It can't be a one man show. The bigger and better organized the team, the better chance the coin has. A development team that runs the enterprise like a genuine business is even better. This means it can't all be about coding, though that is important. There have to be others on the team who handle the outreach and marketing and who tell the coders the features needed to make the coin user friendly for non coders (which is most of the people you hope will adopt your coin).

4. A coin needs a built in incentive to tie up the supply and keep it off the market. This means that it is in people's self interest to hold onto the coin for the long haul. Idealism or faith in the coin is not enough. If I am going to hold your coin there has to be something in it for me both now and in the future. The simplest way to do this is to offer some kind of interest equivalent whereby my holding onto the coin earns me a rate of return in the form of new coins or some other token. DNotes has the DNotes vault which pays monthly "interest" to all who hold coins in it for set amounts of time (the penalty for early withdrawal being that you lose the earned interest). Diamond Coin has a cloud mining operation where people earn Diamonds based on how much Bitcoin they have donated to the operation. Any Proof of Stake coin already incentivizes people to hold the coin and run the wallet.

I have always believed that Devcoin's biggest weakness as it works right now is that it incentivizes earning and dumping, not holding. Then to add insult to injury when it became known or suspected that people earning Devcoins were dumping them, they were often harshly repudiated here (not called out by name or anything but it was clear that those who dumped were considered to be bad for the coin,). In order to hold onto Devcoins you had to be altruistic towards it and basically take the hit from others dumping, and that is just not going to be sustainable because most of us plain aren't altruistic like that. This is probably the most important change Devcoin needs to make. The coin needs to be coded in to incentivize holding rather than dumping.

Related to this, it must be assumed that people will game the system if it is beneficial to them to do so. You need to engineer your system in such a way that there is no benefit to attempting to gain the system and that using the system in the way you intend is what gives the greatest benefit to the end user. That can be very challenging to accomplish but I believe it is possible and the successful (and not so successful) coins now out there have a lot to teach us about what kind of things need to be written into the code. The code should also be flexible enough that when you find a loophole you don't want, you can fix it with an update or fork.

5. The development team needs to have a good reason to create buy support for the coin on the open market. Again, altruism is not enough. In the case of Diamond coin, the developers need to buy Diamond in order to pay the weekly payouts from the cloud mining operation. If the developers aren't buying the coin, then others need to do so for reasons of self interest. With the exception of the speculators who are there to profit from trading itself, the reason that anyone else would buy the coin has to be because they need the coin. You need the coin in order to gain the benefit from accumulating and holding it, or you need it to pay someone with it, or you need it to buy something with it. An altruistic desire to prop up the coin's value is not enough and won't be sustainable long term.

6. The coin needs to be attractive to speculators. Speculators are important because they provide liquidity for everyone else, meaning others can easily buy or sell the coin at a consistent value (not too much difference between top buy and sell requests). So whatever it is that makes speculators go "wow, I want to speculate on this coin!" is what your coin needs to have so that everyone else can have the needed liquidity to get into and out of the coin at will.

7. The coin needs to have a solid community of people who are there because being part of this community will better their financial lives in some way. They should believe in the coin but that belief should stem from solid fundamentals and the perception that this coin will do good things for their bottom line. In order to nurture this community it is very important to have basic courtesy and professionalism wherever that community gathers. That community needs to be growing.

There are probably a couple more points that I have missed, but what I have shared is a good starting point. How does Devcoin do on each of these fundamentals? How could it be changed or forked to excel in those fundamentals which are weak now? The honest discussion around these points could become the basis for a solid plan for how to update Devcoin to now be competitive in today's industry.


This is excellent. Wiser has captured the essence of success in crypto and reduced it to a few paragraphs of intelligent, well thought out observations and advice. What is printed above should become a roadmap for a successful crypto project.


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin
wiser
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1019



View Profile WWW
August 25, 2017, 04:44:54 PM
 #7028

On another note I had to start my Devcoin wallet all over again (download the block chain again). It is now stuck on 111 weeks behind for the past 24 to 36 hours. Do I just wait it out or do I need to try something different? Thanks.

EDIT: Well, waiting it out worked! Wallet is synced.

R-J-F
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 253


AKA RJF - Member since '13


View Profile
August 27, 2017, 03:03:14 PM
 #7029

On another note I had to start my Devcoin wallet all over again (download the block chain again). It is now stuck on 111 weeks behind for the past 24 to 36 hours. Do I just wait it out or do I need to try something different? Thanks.

EDIT: Well, waiting it out worked! Wallet is synced.

Synced without issue. Good to visit my balance again!  Grin

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin
rplescia
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 12
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 31, 2017, 04:52:12 PM
 #7030

I think wiser hit the nail on the head with his point #4 above. From reading through this thread and trying to get an understanding of where some of the issues lie it's clear to me that for this coin to survive one of the main things that need to happen is to switch this coin to Proof of Stake with a fair interest rate, eliminating the need for anyone to buy back Devcoin. Create a new wallet and give people a grace period to transition over to the new wallet, after that burn the old coins. Get the community involved in resurrecting this coin in the same way Dimecoin and Embercoin has, encouraging people to trade the coin and create liquidity
ranlo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 31, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
 #7031

I am 100% on board with the interest idea, and think it would go a long way towards promoting holding the coins. Could even implement one of those "must hold x days" rules to make it more effective.


 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




















Earn Devcoins by Writing
olcott
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 01, 2017, 12:32:42 PM
 #7032

Guys I have a spare resources on my hosting server. I would like to offer some of those resources to the DevCoin project if needed.
R-J-F
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 253


AKA RJF - Member since '13


View Profile
September 05, 2017, 01:00:52 PM
 #7033

I think wiser hit the nail on the head with his point #4 above. From reading through this thread and trying to get an understanding of where some of the issues lie it's clear to me that for this coin to survive one of the main things that need to happen is to switch this coin to Proof of Stake with a fair interest rate, eliminating the need for anyone to buy back Devcoin. Create a new wallet and give people a grace period to transition over to the new wallet, after that burn the old coins. Get the community involved in resurrecting this coin in the same way Dimecoin and Embercoin has, encouraging people to trade the coin and create liquidity

Agree. This makes sense and covers most if not all the issues at hand.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin
nutildah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050
Merit: 1018


Destroyer of Buffets


View Profile
September 07, 2017, 12:58:30 AM
 #7034

Hi guys, I read a few recent pages of this thread but can't seem to find out which exchange devcoin is listed on. There must be at least one because CoinGecko has a price for it. Thanks for your help.

MicroGuy
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1820
Merit: 1001


www.MicroGuy.com


View Profile WWW
September 07, 2017, 01:21:54 AM
 #7035

Hi guys, I read a few recent pages of this thread but can't seem to find out which exchange devcoin is listed on. There must be at least one because CoinGecko has a price for it. Thanks for your help.

Here you go! https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/devcoin/#markets

"The Internet unshackled information, Satoshi Nakamoto unshackled money. And money makes the world go round."
develCuy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 279
Merit: 250


View Profile WWW
September 11, 2017, 09:50:23 PM
 #7036

The Discussion is taking too long

TIME FOR A BACKUP PLAN

While I still believe that Devcoin still has enough community support for "resurrecting", it looks to me that people is waiting for real action rather than more endless discussion. Back to the basics:

"Talk is cheap... Code is gold!"

Let's code some stuff guys!

So, I'm planning to push some stuff to the official repo so you guys can play with it and to provide feedback hands-on.

If you guys want to push some code upstream, go ahead!

This is our playground from now on: http://github.com/coinzen/devcoin/

Let's move convert this discussion into Pull Requests!

Wekkel
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1862
Merit: 1029


yes


View Profile
September 11, 2017, 10:08:31 PM
 #7037

Please make a Windows wallet so I can play with it. I cannot code that well (and GitHub is still a mystery to me) so I cannot be much of service in terms of coding.

           ▀██▄ ▄██▀
            ▐█████▌
           ▄███▀███▄
         ▄████▄  ▀███▄
       ▄███▀ ▀██▄  ▀███▄
     ▄███▀  ▄█████▄  ▀███▄
   ▄███▀  ▄███▀ ▀███▄  ▀███▄
  ███▀  ▄████▌   ▐████▄  ▀███
 ███   ██▀  ██▄ ▄██  ▀██   ███
███   ███  ███   ███  ███   ███
███   ███   ███████   ███   ███
 ███   ███▄▄       ▄▄███   ███
  ███▄   ▀▀█████████▀▀   ▄███
   ▀████▄▄           ▄▄████▀
      ▀▀███████████████▀▀
DeepOnion
.Anonymous and Untraceable.
ANN  Whitepaper  Facebook  Twitter  Telegram  Discord 





      ▄▄██████████▄▄
    ▄███▀▀      ▀▀█▀   ▄▄
   ███▀              ▄███
  ███              ▄███▀   ▄▄
 ███▌  ▄▄▄▄      ▄███▀   ▄███
▐███  ██████   ▄███▀   ▄███▀
███▌ ███  ███▄███▀   ▄███▀
███▌ ███   ████▀   ▄███▀
███▌  ███   █▀   ▄███▀  ███
▐███   ███     ▄███▀   ███
 ███▌   ███  ▄███▀     ███
  ███    ██████▀      ███
   ███▄             ▄███
    ▀███▄▄       ▄▄███▀
      ▀▀███████████▀▀
.
K1773R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1778
Merit: 1003


/dev/null


View Profile
September 13, 2017, 07:33:47 AM
 #7038

The Discussion is taking too long

TIME FOR A BACKUP PLAN

While I still believe that Devcoin still has enough community support for "resurrecting", it looks to me that people is waiting for real action rather than more endless discussion. Back to the basics:

"Talk is cheap... Code is gold!"

Let's code some stuff guys!

So, I'm planning to push some stuff to the official repo so you guys can play with it and to provide feedback hands-on.

If you guys want to push some code upstream, go ahead!

This is our playground from now on: http://github.com/coinzen/devcoin/

Let's move convert this discussion into Pull Requests!
just dont play on the master branch.

[GPG Public Key]  [Devcoin Builds]  [BBQCoin Builds]  [Multichain Blockexplorer]  [Multichain Blockexplorer - PoS Coins]  [Ufasoft Miner Linux Builds]
BTC/DVC/TRC/FRC: 1K1773RbXRZVRQSSXe9N6N2MUFERvrdu6y ANC/XPM AK1773RTmRKtvbKBCrUu95UQg5iegrqyeA NMC: NK1773Rzv8b4ugmCgX789PbjewA9fL9Dy1 LTC: LKi773RBuPepQH8E6Zb1ponoCvgbU7hHmd EMC: EK1773RxUes1HX1YAGMZ1xVYBBRUCqfDoF BQC: bK1773R1APJz4yTgRkmdKQhjhiMyQpJgfN
wiser
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1019



View Profile WWW
September 13, 2017, 10:25:48 PM
 #7039

The Discussion is taking too long

TIME FOR A BACKUP PLAN

While I still believe that Devcoin still has enough community support for "resurrecting", it looks to me that people is waiting for real action rather than more endless discussion. Back to the basics:

"Talk is cheap... Code is gold!"

Let's code some stuff guys!

So, I'm planning to push some stuff to the official repo so you guys can play with it and to provide feedback hands-on.

If you guys want to push some code upstream, go ahead!

This is our playground from now on: http://github.com/coinzen/devcoin/

Let's move convert this discussion into Pull Requests!

That sounds like a good move. Can you periodically post updates here on how the coding is going, for those of us who don't code?

markm
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2072
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
September 21, 2017, 10:22:39 AM
 #7040

Are you lot aware of the panoply of domains this project has had sitting around for years waiting to be deployed?

I really think that instead of throwing around all kinds of F.U.D. about how the coin is broken and so on, you would do better to actually make proper use of the damn coin the way it actually is.

All this moaning and screwing around has served to keep delaying and delaying and delaying the deployment of all the cool stuff we have sitting in the wings.

For example all the problems with the Wiki make the idea of deplying the various special-focus Wikis we have long had domains ready for seem like hmm hmm maybe just not yet, let them get the general-purpose no-specific-focus Wiki working smoothly first before expanding into the whole panoply of specialised-topic Wikis.

We have a perfectly good coin that works just fine, we the original developers are still right here, still waiting for the folks who insisted they needed to take control of various of its domains, run its wiki and so on to actually demonstrate that they are in fact able to perform those tasks adequately.

By the way regarding the current Wiki, is there some reason why we cannot deploy Google Adsense ads on it? Preferably big graphic banners that pey per exposure rather than per click?

I am thinking of setting up all our domains with webservers, if only with placeholder pages explaining what kinds of things we had had in mind for each domain, and since one of our biggest problems is too many shares being allocated to folks who dump the coins instead of to folks who are tying the coins up into various projects designed to absorb and retain coins, maybe it would be a great idea to assign a share per such domain toward hosting and admin, or even a share toward hosting and an additional share toward administrative expenses?

Also maybe it would be a good idea to enumerate and describe some of the projects that aim to tie up coins, create "Corps" out of them, and assign each such "Corp" a share toward administrative costs?

I am also re-visiting the idea of insisting upon actual DeVCoins in payment for various things, especially recurring annual things, that are denominated in DeVCoins, instead of flexibly offering to accept "equivalent value" ( at current exchange rates such as those shown at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc ) in various other coins and assets, to force players to have to resort to some form of exchange to pay those recurring fees and thus be more likely to impact the actual exchange-rates.

I think there are something like two billion devcoins minted each year, with one thousand players an annual fee of two million DeVCoins per player would consume all of that. with only one hundred players it would take an annual fee of twenty million to do so.

You have to have an, or the, entire economy in mind; you need "money sinks" equal to the amount of money being minted if you are to keep MUDflation from running away with itself.


Maybe it is time to make the authorship shares of the Wiki be shares of the DeVCoins that the advertising on the Wiki manages to bring in? Have it buy DeVCoins with the advertising revenue as was originally intended but also give the authors shares only of that revenue?

Bring back to mind yet again that originally one share was intended to be what one person who as a matter of lifestyle puts in typically ten hours per week of coding work was to receive.

How many thousands of words should an author be able to post in a forty-hour month of writing on the Wiki?

Is it not a bit ridiculous to expect forty hours of writing to result in only one thousand words?

How many words SHOULD we really require of authors per forty hours (one share) of writing?

Meanwhile, I am continuing to build up the buy-side of the DVC/LTC orderbook...

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
Pages: « 1 ... 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 [352] 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!