[ANN] DERO: DAG + Cryptonote + Bulletproofs + SSL + POW + Smart Contracts

[MagicSmoker]

Likewise, I agree with you almost, but not quite, 100%. Where I differ with you is that I see the DERO network as having already passed the stress test, more or less, and so it now seems reasonable to divert some effort into forking off the ASICs.
...

The bolded part of your post does seem to be the point of contention. Where we disagree is the extent to which the stress test is known to have been passed. The developers (via Serena) keep alluding to security issues as part of the reason for a delay in switching PoW algo, and I have no real reason to doubt them.
...

Ah, yes... you make a compelling argument here; so much so that it has persuaded me to go back to my earlier position which is to let CaptDero and friends keep doing whatever it is they are doing. In the end, if you believe in the merit of a project you have to trust the course the devs are taking, even if - from an outsider's perspective - it seems to be counterproductive or even short-term injurious.

[CaptDero]

...The holier-than-thou approach of the team to an outpouring of disappointment from their early supporters and the toxicity that breeds has killed what I used to love coming to this community for....

...
We're weighing 2 very important things at the moment: Network security, stability, and reliability and what the community is saying. We have some (private) very important information/data on our end that is heavily contributing to our decision to focus where we are.

While I can understand the argument for continuing with core development - especially to address these nebulous "security" issues you keep alluding too - I also wish to invoke the apocryphal quote usually attributed to John Maynard Keynes* - "When the facts change, I change my mind; what do you do?"

More specifically, the fact that changed here is the network hashrate, which has gone from 5MH/s to as much as 100MH/s. Contrast that with ZenCash, for example, which has a network hashrate of 75-80MH/s and a market cap of $131M (all $ in USD), so is worth about $1.75 per MH/s. The situation is even more stark with Monero, which now has a hashrate of 530MH/s and a market cap of $4.5B, so is worth about $8.50 per MH/s. Extrapolating these two examples to DERO would result in a market cap of somewhere between $87.5M ($1.75 * 50Mh/s) to $850M ($8.50 * 100MH/s). Does even the lower valuation seem at all realistic given the recent market conditions and the near total absence of any actual use for DERO (at the moment)? Not to me, it doesn't.

I rather suspect the pitchforks and cudgels would be brought out if DERO's price had continued its downward trajectory, but fortunately for all it seems to have not only stopped declining, but reversed smartly to the upside, and so the community is merely upset, rather than furious. But again, the facts have changed, --Serena-- and CaptDero; will you change your minds, or stubbornly continue on the same path?

* - but most likely first said by another economist, Paul Samuelson

I think that you and I are generally of a like mind, not just where DERO is concerned but also regarding other projects in which we have a mutual interest, but I don't agree with you 100% on this one.

In real life, something that I'm regularly faced with is stress testing applications, the web server stacks that serve them, and the hardware that it all runs on. One of the most difficult things to come up with is "actual usage" tests (rather than something as simplistic as ApacheBench or similar) that simulate real world usage patterns. Part of the reason that it's so difficult is because there's nothing even close to a standard usage pattern when hosting mixed-application websites belonging to hundreds of different people and with wildly varying traffic patterns, application configurations, resource requirements etc.

One can easily see where the emergence of ASICs and the sudden surge in attacks and the network hash rate has dropped a rather useful "real world" stress test right into the DERO developers' laps. Consider what other projects have done. ITNS was attacked and essentially went offline while a hardfork was implemented and the chain rolled back. XVG was attacked and basically exposed the absolute incompetence of the developers who had no idea how to respond. There are other examples I'm sure, but those are the two that I'm most familiar with.

Imagine that ITNS was more mature and in heavy worldwide usage. Can you picture the sheer chaos caused by a hardfork and roll back of the chain? Even if the usage was related to its primary function (a mechanism for VPN services) and not more widespread commerce, that would mean that payments to providers would essentially be undone for the entire duration of the roll back, and that the VPN services that people had come to rely on were not available to them. Would ITNS be trusted again in such a scenario, even after the fix had been implemented? Maybe. Maybe not. There would be an awful lot of VPN service providers who would be mightily pissed, and rightly so.

DERO, as you rightly said, doesn't currently have an actual use case. There are no end-users to inconvenience, no commercial transactions to be interrupted or rolled back. It's a new blockchain technology in its infancy, and the only people being inconvenienced are GPU and CPU miners. Does the current surge in the network hash rate suck for them in the short term? Sure. Though it's really not that hard to mine something else and exchange it for DERO at a rate far higher than can be obtained by just mining DERO. Example: I can mine less than 3 DERO per day with my measly 10KH/s, but I can mine XMR and buy more than 20 DERO per day. That's not far off what I was mining before the ASIC invasion.

The DERO developers however are getting that real life stress test that I talked about earlier, and they're getting it for free. The network has been attacked, the attacks have failed. The hash rate is 10x what it was pre-ASICs and yet everything continues to run smoothly. Heck, just look at the number of Alpha releases that came one after the other in response to the attacks and network surge. The devs were clearly learning, and learning fast, not just from what was happening to DERO but to other projects too. You simply cannot buy that kind of data about how a blockchain will respond to suddenly changing conditions and / or attacks of various amplitudes.

With that in mind, I'm not at all convinced that an immediate hard fork to ward off the evil ASICs is (or was) necessarily in the best long term interests of the DERO project, its supporters, and its investors. Nothing is learned that way. And when new ASICs come out that can mine v7, Lite, Heavy etc the projects that swept network / security issues under the rug with a simple algo change will find themselves in the same situation again.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the DERO devs should be applauded, not castigated, for taking this free-of-charge real world stress test, patiently learning lessons from it and applying them to the underlying blockchain technology, and THEN eventually making a switch to a different algo once they've learned all that they can. In doing so, they're showing the kind of foresight and discipline that we should all want in the devs of a project that we hope will flourish into something massive.

Short term pain for long term gains. I can live with that.

P.S. Wanted to add some quick math since I know you love it as much as I do. Pre-ASICs my 10KH/s was mining ~25-30 DERO per day, and by mining XMR then exchanging it for DERO I can currently buy ~20 DERO per day. Worst case scenario, it's costing me 10 DERO per day. Let's say that DERO doesn't implement a new algo for 2 months - 60 days. The total cost to me is 600 DERO, or at the current price about $540. Will I trade that for all of the lessons that are being learned and put into practice by the devs? Every day, and twice on Sundays. If DERO takes off as we all hope it will, it's well worth that to me to avoid the pains that the ETH network experienced.

Thanks @Speedie for your time and efforts for understanding and explaining the same.
Everyone was more than happy and satisfied with Golang Alpha release and no one would have ever required/asked for more than what was already being offered. Everything was moving ahead of schedule and smooth.
But we decided to go for DERO Atlantis as we can see clearly the journey ahead.

[lqulong]

Hi friends! I need your help! I would like to send some Dero coins from wallet to account on stocks.echange. I used the old wallet, it needs paymentID but my account on stocks.exchange does not have paymentID.

[CaptDero]

Likewise, I agree with you almost, but not quite, 100%. Where I differ with you is that I see the DERO network as having already passed the stress test, more or less, and so it now seems reasonable to divert some effort into forking off the ASICs.
...

The bolded part of your post does seem to be the point of contention. Where we disagree is the extent to which the stress test is known to have been passed. The developers (via Serena) keep alluding to security issues as part of the reason for a delay in switching PoW algo, and I have no real reason to doubt them.
...

Ah, yes... you make a compelling argument here; so much so that it has persuaded me to go back to my earlier position which is to let CaptDero and friends keep doing whatever it is they are doing. In the end, if you believe in the merit of a project you have to trust the course the devs are taking, even if - from an outsider's perspective - it seems to be counterproductive or even short-term injurious.

Nice to see that.  Hope in very near future we will sit in the evening and I will be able to answer your some questions very clearly then. Would also like to hear about your never ending lucky/reliable counter/oscilloscope stories along with defunct_lucky_ebay_search and their silly restoration process. I never expressed my love for electronics before, Don't wana start here 

[CaptDero]

Hi friends! I need your help! I would like to send some Dero coins from wallet to account on stocks.echange. I used the old wallet, it needs paymentID but my account on stocks.exchange does not have paymentID.

Download latest from http://seeds.dero.io/alpha/   sync first.
Now stocks.exchange does not require payment_ID, they use integrated_address.

[allwithpassion]

First SSL Blockchain? What do you mean?

[--Serena--]

First SSL Blockchain? What do you mean?

Dero is, to the best of our knowledge, the first blockchain to have complete SSL/TLS in the p2p layer

https://medium.com/@867cryptocurrency/dero-a-new-blockchain-technology-that-brings-cryptonote-privacy-together-with-smart-contracts-4cc4972c81f8

[DeroHodler]

It seems the ASIC owners are not eager to sell their share of DERO. I am not sure how this will play out in the long term, but for now the price is rising rapidly and so is the volume. A 20,000 buy order has been placed at 0.00015000 BTC per DERO. This is huge and should reinforce the current cost.

Also, DERO currently has a 24 hour trade volume of $85,000, $15,000 shy of coinmarketcap's listing requirement. Getting listed on coinmarketcap could bring a significant amount of attention to the project and grow the community.

[Coindgr]

What's going on?? Major pump from ASIC miners so they can dump DERO??

Coin is worth a lot more, but with current situation... dump expected

[--Serena--]

                                                   

How to start using Dero                Downloads                Whitepaper                Support      

About DERO  

The Dero Project has written a unique new blockchain technology that is based on the CryptoNote protocol. Dero's goal is to create a unique state of the art blockchain technology with enhanced reliability, privacy, security, usability, and portability by bringing together some of the best proven technologies like the CryptoNote protocol and smart contracts, thereby allowing for the creation of truly private smart contracts.

The Dero development team has implemented complete SSL across the Dero network which is a first on any blockchain. This encrypts the entirety of our network traffic, which greatly reduces our attack surface, while simultaneously preventing ISPs or other users from analyzing Dero’s network traffic.

Dero's Key Features  

• DERO is a completely new and unique CryptoNote blockchain written in Golang
• DERO is the first blockchain to have complete SSL in the P2P layer
• DERO will be the first CryptoNote blockchain to have 500 transactions per second on its native blockchain without any lightning networks, validators or off-blockchain solutions
• DERO will be first CryptoNote blockchain to have smart contracts on its native chain without any extra layers or secondary blockchains
• CryptoNote privacy
• Smart contracts
• Atomic swaps
• Mobile and offline wallets
• Lightweight wallets
• Subaddresses
• Escrow services on the blockchain
• Address signing and certifying
• Voting on a private blockchain

About The Developers  

There are three developers working on the Dero Project who have been working in the field of cryptography and blockchain development as a team for more than a decade. Dero's research and development team are devoted full time to the project, and can often be found in our Slack channel. For now, the development team are choosing to retain their privacy until the Dero Project incorporates.

Coin Specifications  

 

• Proof-of-work (PoW) algorithm: CryptoNight
• Max supply: 18.4 million for the first 8 years followed by an infinite emission rate after year 8 of ~157,000 DERO/year
• Block reward: Smoothly varying
• Block time: 120 seconds
• Difficulty: Retargets at every block
• Ticker: DERO

Dero's Roadmap  

 

• Q1/2018 - Dero's new unique blockchain written and full Activation. - Completed ahead of schedule with the extra addition of complete SSL across Dero's network
• Q2/2018 - Record CryptoNote TX/sec, GUI wallets, sub addresses, atomic swaps, and smart contract testing.
• Q3/2018 - Smart contract support on chain. Q3 2018.
• Q4/2018 - Strategic market expansion, team growth, and more (coming soon).

Dero Related Links  

Resource Links  

WEBSITE: https://dero.io/
FORUM: https://forum.dero.io/
EXPLORER: https://explorer.dero.io
OFFICIAL POOL: http://pool.dero.live/
BINARIES: http://seeds.dero.io/alpha/

Exchanges & Stats:

EXCHANGE: https://stocks.exchange/trade/DERO/BTC
EXCHANGE: https://www.southxchange.com/Balance/Index/DERO
Stats: https://coincodex.com/crypto/dero/
Stats: https://www.difficultychart.com/dero
Stats: https://www.cryptunit.com/coin/DERO

Articles and Media Content  

Dero: A new blockchain technology that brings CryptoNote privacy together with smart contracts.


Shifting from alpha to beta: CryptoNote with smart contracts



Support

[copatel]

Amazing promotion post about dero. But i not found any difference from prev page

[--Serena--]

Amazing promotion post about dero. But i not found any difference from prev page

We try to keep it visible at the top of each page 

[copatel]

Amazing promotion post about dero. But i not found any difference from prev page

We try to keep it visible at the top of each page 

Volume 100k, cmc

[--Serena--]

Amazing promotion post about dero. But i not found any difference from prev page

We try to keep it visible at the top of each page 

Volume 100k, cmc

We applied!

[Atomicc]

We can see the possible price manipulation from ASIC miners. Mining...but there is no selling. Solo mining, farms. No decentralization.
From the beginning, DERO start with huge support from small GPU miners, and big decentralization. A big GPU miner population is one of the reasons why You decide to use a Cryptonight, and got a free marketing from the start, and loyal supporters.
Now coin developers decide to betray GPU miners, and accept ASICs. All other serious coins made a fork, support decentralization and make their coins ASIC resistant. Even ETN work on fork.
When ETN left the "old" cryptonight, the rest market value of all coins on old algo will not be sustainable to give ASIC owners profitability. They will stop mining. What You will do than? Transfer DERO to PoS?

[b9ron]

Stop crying we are not sure if the next PoW change will ever be GPU friendly. Even at 100 Mh they make less coins than a GPU miner enthusiast during last month.

[copatel]

will not be sustainable to give ASIC owners profitability. They will stop mining.

Natural ASIC resistance.

 

[fellestreum]

Why  hasn't the price gone down?

[Hopebrignt]

Why  hasn't the price gone down?

Because, Dero will be listed in Coinmarketcap. 
p/s: i have just seen Volume 24h is ~100k$

[Digital Drug Lord]

On behalf of the Dero team, I want to let you know that making anyone feel this way is not the intention, and in fact what we're doing is exactly the opposite.

I feel it's important to step back for a moment to look at the larger situation as a whole. Many projects that had set fork dates for ASIC-resistance had to push their updates sooner because their networks were being attacked.

Dero has taken it's own approach since day 1. In this case, we feel it's critically important to protect the security, reliability, and robustness of Dero's network to protect everyone's efforts to date. What Dero is doing is looking at the issue from a different perspective and fixing the underlying problems before addressing what exacerbated them.

I strongly feel that when people look back through these posts in the future, they will see that Dero wants the most secure and safest network possible. We will always work very hard to protect our community but you're comparing a critical issue to one that is important, but less critical.

I have been mining Dero myself for 4 months, and so I can understand that ASICs are not ideal. People won't invest in something that is not secure, and they will remember security issues for a long time. It is the miners like you, and I who are effected in the short term, however, in the long term fixing critical issues and prioritizing properly is good for anyone who believes in the Dero Project.

this is bullshit, you are killing gpu mining, look at actual hashrate and what it was 2 weeks ago. Your community is gpu miners not chinese asics farms.Go ahead that way and DERO is dead

So have ascic killed this coin? Did they fork like everyone else?