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Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 775467 times)
sturle
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January 26, 2012, 11:31:12 AM
 #781

About voting with hash power, I think that can be the right way to do such changes, but pools complicate that a bit. It's a bit late now, but if there will be more such voting in the future, then perhaps it would be an idea to implement some sort of voting inside BitMinter. Say you vote on the website and the pool creates votes in the blocks we make to match how much hash power in our pool voted for the one or other option. The choices in this case would be "BIP16", "BIP17" or "blank". This would allow each miner to use their hash power the way they want.
I think calling this a "vote" is misleading.  To cite BIP 16:
Quote
To gracefully upgrade and ensure no long-lasting block-chain split occurs, more than 50% of miners must support full validation of the new transaction type and must switch from the old validation rules to the new rules at the same time.

To judge whether or not more than 50% of hashing power supports this BIP, miners are asked to upgrade their software and put the string "/P2SH/" in the input of the coinbase transaction for blocks that they create.
Never ever put "/P2SH/" in the coinbase to state an opinion unless you actually have upgraded bitcoind to validate P2SH transactions as specified in the BIP, or there will be a miscount with consequences as described.  For BIP 17 this is even more important, because BIP 17 type transactions can be stolen by anyone until more than 50% of the hashing power correctly validates the transactions.  If e.g. Deepbit choose to "vote" for BIP 17 without actually validating the transactions, any BIP 17 type transactions can be stolen before they reach the block chain.  (This has been demonstrated on the testnet, where people have fun stealing luke-jr's test transactions.)

IMHO BIP 16 is the way to go.  BIP 17 has support from one developer while the rest support BIP 16.  BIP 17 will probably never gain the support it needs, and only delay the process of getting multisignature transactions into Bitcoin.  Multisignature transactions are important for security reasons.  Especially for larger companies where large transactions needs to be signed by at least two persons.

Sjå http://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
I support the roadmap.  If a majority of miners ever try to forcefully take control of Bitcoin through a hard fork without 100% consensus, I will immediately split out and dump all my forkcoins, and buy more real Bitcoin.
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January 26, 2012, 01:15:00 PM
 #782

About voting with hash power, I think that can be the right way to do such changes, but pools complicate that a bit. It's a bit late now, but if there will be more such voting in the future, then perhaps it would be an idea to implement some sort of voting inside BitMinter. Say you vote on the website and the pool creates votes in the blocks we make to match how much hash power in our pool voted for the one or other option. The choices in this case would be "BIP16", "BIP17" or "blank". This would allow each miner to use their hash power the way they want.
I think calling this a "vote" is misleading.  To cite BIP 16:
Quote
To gracefully upgrade and ensure no long-lasting block-chain split occurs, more than 50% of miners must support full validation of the new transaction type and must switch from the old validation rules to the new rules at the same time.

To judge whether or not more than 50% of hashing power supports this BIP, miners are asked to upgrade their software and put the string "/P2SH/" in the input of the coinbase transaction for blocks that they create.

Never ever put "/P2SH/" in the coinbase to state an opinion unless you actually have upgraded bitcoind to validate P2SH transactions as specified in the BIP, or there will be a miscount with consequences as described.  For BIP 17 this is even more important, because BIP 17 type transactions can be stolen by anyone until more than 50% of the hashing power correctly validates the transactions.  If e.g. Deepbit choose to "vote" for BIP 17 without actually validating the transactions, any BIP 17 type transactions can be stolen before they reach the block chain.  (This has been demonstrated on the testnet, where people have fun stealing luke-jr's test transactions.)

That is a good point.  Miners (and more directly pool operators) VOTE by their ACTIONS.  Upgrading to p2sh capable bitoind is the actual "vote".  Now that vote is silent/hidden from the rest of the network so putting text code into the coinbase is merelying indicating how the pool has ALREADY voted.

If enough people changed coinbase text without updating their bitcoind the results would be disastrous.

And yes this means miner's don't get a direct vote (excpet solo & p2pool miners) ALTHOUGH if pools made their position clear miners do have the choice to CHANGE pools (indirect voting).
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January 26, 2012, 04:06:01 PM
 #783

For BIP 17 this is even more important, because BIP 17 type transactions can be stolen by anyone until more than 50% of the hashing power correctly validates the transactions.  If e.g. Deepbit choose to "vote" for BIP 17 without actually validating the transactions, any BIP 17 type transactions can be stolen before they reach the block chain.  (This has been demonstrated on the testnet, where people have fun stealing luke-jr's test transactions.)

This is a pretty scary thing with BIP 17.

Miners (and more directly pool operators) VOTE by their ACTIONS.  Upgrading to p2sh capable bitoind is the actual "vote".

For pools using "getwork" to create blocks this is true. Since BitMinter uses "getmemorypool" (which means it creates the generation transaction itself) to create blocks, the upgrade to a bitcoind version supporting certain features and putting /P2SH/ or similar in the generation transactions are two separate things. I just have to remember to do both. Wink

Looks like pretty strong support for BIP 16 in this pool so far.

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January 26, 2012, 07:03:15 PM
 #784

I was cleaning up the Bitcoin wiki pool comparison page and I discovered something about Bitminter.

Bitminter is the largest merged mining pool which has no fee and shares transaction fees.

Basically Bitminter is the largest "true 0% cost" pool. Smiley

Pools which don't pay transaction fees cost miners ~0.2%.
Pools which don't merge mine costs miners ~1.5%.
Pools which charge a high fee costs miners 3% to 10%.
Pools which don't protect miners from hoppers costs miner ~10% to ~20% or more.

Bitminter - the "true zero cost solution".  That being said I hope Bitminter does support donations in the future.
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January 26, 2012, 08:22:51 PM
 #785

Precisely why I hooked a rig with this pool.
I'm doing an extended revenue comparison of BitMinter and p2pool, I'll share my findings in a month or two.
My days of mining at Eligius are officially over. A bloody shame for it's an awesome SMPPS poisoned apple pool and I'm still in love with the pure-address TNO approach.

EDIT:: there also appears to have been some morally dubious activity going on at ABCPool concerning Goat's project. Ceased due to technical issues more than anything else.
I call that highly disconcerting.
Don't let greed cloud your judgment, pool ops  Angry
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January 26, 2012, 08:27:54 PM
 #786

Id gladly sacrifice transaction fees or even merged mining fees in return for one feature I think is missing still. Eclipse has SMS notification for hash rate (and even found blocks), which is really cool. Im not sure how he does it and pays for it, it cant be free to send a dozen SMS messages across the globe for any miner, but its neat. Paypal payout is also something that could appeal particularly to newbies, even if a fat fee is taken. That fee could also form a small source of revenue.

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Gerald Davis


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January 26, 2012, 08:59:13 PM
 #787

Id gladly sacrifice transaction fees or even merged mining fees in return for one feature I think is missing still. Eclipse has SMS notification for hash rate (and even found blocks), which is really cool. Im not sure how he does it and pays for it, it cant be free to send a dozen SMS messages across the globe for any miner, but its neat. Paypal payout is also something that could appeal particularly to newbies, even if a fat fee is taken. That fee could also form a small source of revenue.

I assume he is just paying it out of fees collected.  SMS API are pretty cheap. 

Here is just one example (couple dozen companies offer same stuff)
http://www.cdyne.com/products/sms-notify.aspx

1 cent per message.  (USD cents not Bitcents. Smiley )
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January 27, 2012, 06:08:39 PM
 #788

Oh god I solved two blocks :'D
I feel useful.
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January 27, 2012, 07:04:34 PM
 #789

Good news. New server is ready. Moving will cause a little downtime though. It's probably best to schedule this ahead of time, so people can set a backup pool or manually move to another pool during the downtime. Saturday in a week might be good?

Also, there seems to be strong support for BIP 16, so I will put those votes in. Just going to test new bitcoind + the vote change + other changes in new mining pool software. But coming soon...

Bitminter is the largest merged mining pool which has no fee and shares transaction fees.

Yay! Good points, I updated the subject and contents of the original post a bit, maybe it helps attract more miners.

Oh god I solved two blocks :'D

Nicely done, sir. Smiley

Id gladly sacrifice transaction fees or even merged mining fees in return for one feature I think is missing still. Eclipse has SMS notification for hash rate (and even found blocks), which is really cool. Im not sure how he does it and pays for it, it cant be free to send a dozen SMS messages across the globe for any miner, but its neat. Paypal payout is also something that could appeal particularly to newbies, even if a fat fee is taken. That fee could also form a small source of revenue.

Hmm. SMS notifications. Paypal payout. Added to my list. Wink

I'm doing an extended revenue comparison of BitMinter and p2pool, I'll share my findings in a month or two.

It's a race! Will their 0.5% fee or their bonuses decide? Or maybe that old hairy monster called Variance? Smiley

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January 27, 2012, 07:47:47 PM
 #790

I regret to say I have lost all confidence in ABCPool.
If ABCPool had been pool hopping all the time, it's safe to presume that the ops made a shitload of bitcoins behind the scenes. Damned greed.
Of course, if there were no proportional idiots pools in the first place, none of that shit would be possible.
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January 27, 2012, 09:27:42 PM
 #791

Great to hear about the new server, Im ready anytime for the cut-over!  Grin


I like the idea of the SMS notifications, even tho I don't have a phone...
I could see a Paypal payout option attracting a few more miners as well..
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January 27, 2012, 11:19:27 PM
 #792

Great to hear about the new server, Im ready anytime for the cut-over!  Grin


I like the idea of the SMS notifications, even tho I don't have a phone...
I could see a Paypal payout option attracting a few more miners as well..


I think Paypal might be a very good fit for this pool.  The java app makes trying mining very easy and if the user can right away cash it might draw more causal users.

casual miner 1: "Look man you can get paid to use your .... "
casual miner 2: "Save it.  I don't believe in that Bitcoin scam"
casual miner 1: "Well I just got paid in dollars"
casual miner 2: "Wait where?  I want moneyz too".

Smiley

I really think BitMinter could generate revenue from "value added" services:
  • Paypal cost 2.9% but to causal miner they might be willing to pay a 1% markup for "instant cash".
  • SMS messages only cost a penny but miners might be willing to pay 500% of that.
  • "Instant payments (no 120 block delay) and invalid block "insurance" doesn't cost much (invalid blocks make up about 0.2% of pools generation) but it has high perceived value by some.  No doubt some miner would check yes for a 1% fee.
  • Maybe someday add a PPS option.  Hell it could be the first "member contributed" PPS funds (another BitMinter first).  You optionally deposit BTC to a fund to payout negative PPS swings.  Essentially you are taking the "other side" of the PPS bet (you gain on short blocks and lose on long blocks).  In the end it evens out except you collect the fee. Say Bitminter collects a 4% fee for PPS (60% less than Deepbit).  They pool keeps 1% and pays out the other 3% to the PPS funds members.
  • Maybe a "VIP" plan.  8% fee.  Gets you PPS, FREE paypal cashouts, instant payments (no 120 block delay), invalid block insurance, unlimited SMS notifications, and a "VIP" member forum badge.

I don't want to speak for the pool operator but I could see a high speed zero fee pool which also has paid value added services being attractive.  People feel better about "spending money" than they do about getting hit w/ some mandatory fees.
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January 27, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
 #793

I concur D&T

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January 28, 2012, 12:37:07 AM
 #794

casual miner 1: "Look man you can get paid to use your .... "
casual miner 2: "Save it.  I don't believe in that Bitcoin scam"
casual miner 1: "Well I just got paid in dollars"
casual miner 2: "Wait where?  I want moneyz too".

Hehe, funny but very true. It's a good point. I should add features like that to better leverage the existing newbie-friendly features of the pool.

I really think BitMinter could generate revenue from "value added" services:

If you are not deepbit it may be the only way to make a profit.

I was planning to add donation perks that activate depending on how high you set your donation percentage.

Paypal cost 2.9% but to causal miner they might be willing to pay a 1% markup for "instant cash".

1% isn't much when you see how the bitcoin markets constantly fluctuate. The price for a bitcoin is very unstable, and if I pay out in dollars then I'm taking a considerable risk. Best bet is probably to look at how volatile the markets have been and try to find some semi-safe markup. Two possible places to collect: require donation to activate paypal payout + use the latest market exchange rate minus a percentage.

SMS messages only cost a penny but miners might be willing to pay 500% of that.

I don't think miners would want to pay $5 per SMS. But probably much more than the price I'd have to pay to send one.

This is probably best done not by donation but a feature you activate and it works as long as it can subtract the necessary sum from your balance each time a message is triggered. With a selectable limit for max messages per day.

"Instant payments (no 120 block delay) and payment even in invalid blocks really doesn't cost much (invalid blocks make up about 0.2% of pools generation) but some would be willing to pay 1% for that.

Instant payment and paying invalid blocks is really the same feature. I was planning to activate that at perhaps 3% donation. Donate enough BTC and you get it on BTC blocks. Donate enough NMC and it works on NMC blocks.

Maybe someday add a PPS option.  Hell it could be the first "member contributed" PPS funds.  You optionally deposit BTC to a fund to payout negative PPS swings.  Essentially you are taking the "other side" of the PPS bet.  The good news is you have the house advantage (PPS fee).  Say Bitminter collects a 4% fee for PPS (60% less than Deepbit).  They pool keeps 1% and pays out the other 3% to the PPS funds members.

I sometimes consider adding PPS at some high donation percentage. Maybe 7%. But PPS is very risky. Variance can cause big losses. And block withholding attacks are entirely free for the attacker if he gets paid through PPS.

Pooling PPS funds sounds a bit like SMPPS? Something like that might be doable. Block withholding could empty the pooled funds though.

Maybe a "VIP" plan.  8% fee.  Gets you PPS, paypal cashouts, instant payments (no 120 block delay), and SMS notification.

Interesting. Maybe instead of different perks activating at different donation levels, you would "buy" perks with your donations. Each perk would require X percent donation, and you can freely pick the ones you prefer. And then there is the VIP package that gives you all features and costs less in donation than all the individual features added together.

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January 28, 2012, 01:06:27 AM
 #795

What if advertising space was offered the homepage? Where the start your engine banner is, add a pip or two so that it scrolls over legit adverts. It would be a little extra in the wallet at the end of the month.

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January 28, 2012, 03:12:11 AM
 #796

What if advertising space was offered the homepage? Where the start your engine banner is, add a pip or two so that it scrolls over legit adverts. It would be a little extra in the wallet at the end of the month.

If it was limited to bitcoin only services that wouldn't be such a bad idea.  Likely could do the same thing in the Bitminter miner too.  Hell I would advertise my "coming soon" product if I could ever get this graphical design work wrapped up.  Targeted ads are more valuable which means less are needed for the same amount of revenue.  A bitcoin merchant knows a miner has Bitcoin, bitcoins that could potentially be spent.
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January 28, 2012, 03:14:12 AM
 #797

What if advertising space was offered the homepage? Where the start your engine banner is, add a pip or two so that it scrolls over legit adverts. It would be a little extra in the wallet at the end of the month.

If it was limited to bitcoin only services that wouldn't be such a bad idea.  Likely could do the same thing in the Bitminter miner too.  Hell I would advertise my "coming soon" product if I could ever get this graphical design work wrapped up.  Targeted ads are more valuable which means less are needed for the same amount of revenue.  A bitcoin merchant knows a miner has Bitcoin, bitcoins that could potentially be spent.

My thinking precisely

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January 28, 2012, 04:47:38 AM
 #798

Updating server? No Hashes boss!

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January 28, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
 #799

Hmm, server went down, not sure why yet. On its way back up now but something is slooooow. I will be happy after getting over to the new server.

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January 28, 2012, 08:32:01 AM
 #800

Mining is up. Was giving out work very slowly for a bit, but seems to be stable now.

Update: It was a dead disk on the server causing the problems. Then after things were back up the load was rather high, and still is. Still, the server seems to be coping with higher than normal load and work looks to be coming out to miners fast. Very sorry about this. Not the best of mornings.

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