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Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 776117 times)
rjk
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February 29, 2012, 05:46:02 PM
 #1081

When there is a split in the share chain, I would assume p2pool nodes will see multiple chains and go with the longest one, just like bitcoin does?
My understanding is that miners can continue to mine on a split chain, and still be able to get valid blocks and payouts. They just have greater variance due to lower hash rate because of the split.

EDIT: I am however, not sure of the actual mechanics of a split - what causes them, and how they can be rectified if it were unwanted behavior. The splits I have heard of in the past I assumed were due to incompatible client versions and things like that.

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DrHaribo
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February 29, 2012, 09:39:07 PM
 #1082

Quick backend restart. Fixed a memory leak and a couple other issues. The memory leak is what was causing the downtime today and the slow response which gave high stales earlier. Should be back to low stales, quick response and stable server. (knock on wood)

My understanding is that miners can continue to mine on a split chain, and still be able to get valid blocks and payouts. They just have greater variance due to lower hash rate because of the split.

Sure, it becomes like 2 separate p2pools. But I imagine all nodes end on the same fork after a while, to prevent degenerating into everyone solo mining by themselves.

Btw, awesome miner project you have. Smiley

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Gerald Davis


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February 29, 2012, 11:09:49 PM
 #1083

Imagine if I am an evil pool with 310 GH/s and you are the honest p2pool miners with 280 GH/s. I hop over to p2pool with my pool and start mining on top of your shares, entering the share chain. You then try to build shares on top of mine, but every time you do I create a fork. I only build shares on top of my own shares. My forks are always longer than yours, so you never get paid. I am now using 310 GH/s and getting paid for 590 GH/s. You get nothing.

How would the good miners get nothing?

It does look like an exploit is possible but the exploit is non-economic or minimally economic.  51% attacks in Bitcoin are powerful because you can reverse prior transactions.  That isn't possible in p2pool.  Attacker could reject all other shares and only build on his chain but that only affects future shares.

There are a couple things that make that of limited value:
a) It will take 24 hours (at 51%) to get full value.  Attacker can't build the chain any faster and it will take 8640 shares to remove all prior "good" shares from the chain by attrition.  If attacker had been mining "good" (to avoid a noticeable instant doubling of hash power) then the effective hashpower of the attack chain would be half and it would take 48 hours to achieve full effect.  p2pool could keep a longer history to extend the full value time.

b) It is immediately obvious. all good nodes would see 100% reject rate.  The node currently doesn't have a "failsafe" but imlementing a max global orphaned in last x minutes check could make automated detection.  If global orphan rate spikes node stops issuing work and miners drop back to backup pools.  In the case of a hybrid pool it would drop to "conventional mode" (albeit with increased variance).

c) Attack has limited economic value as to achieve full value (200% pps) attacker would need to sustain the attack for 24/48 hours without any good miners dropping out.

d) Attacker can't work in secret.  In Bitcoin 51% attack since the goal is reversing a prior transaction an attacker can work days or even weeks in secret building an attack chain.  That doesn't work here because the value of any shares is "cashed out" when a block is found.  Every second attacker doesn't publish the attack chain is a second p2pool could find a block and make all the attack work worthless.

Still I am glad you brought it up.  A failsafe based on global orphan rate is a good feature to add to the node. 


Quote
Also, I don't see a way to control the difficulty - it's based on the share chain.
...
the 10 second block intervals could be turned into 10 minutes,

Difficulty can be controlled but it is linked to the LP interval.

Difficulty = (LP interval) * (p2pool network hashing power) / (2^32)

Right now p2pool uses a target LP interval of 10 seconds and has ~300 GH/s that gives it a share difficulty of ~690.

As a side note this is no different than Bitcoin.  Bitcoin targets a 10 minute block interval and has roughly 9.5 TH of hashing power (at the last adjustment) so it has a difficulty of ~1.3 million.

So (by consensus of hashing power) one could choose another interval and to support sub pools someday p2pool will likely need to have a longer interval.  10 minutes is far too long though as difficulty for a share would be a fraction of Bitcoin = p2pool hashing power.   Reverse way to look at it is p2pool lowers share difficulty by a) having less hashing power than bitcoind network and b) having a shorter interval.

A LP interval of 60 sec would require 6x the difficulty relative today for the same hashing power.   At say 1.5 TH/s that would mean a difficulty of ~21,000.  Very high but a tiny fraction of the block difficulty that pools currently shoot for (and the variance that comes with it).
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March 01, 2012, 07:16:33 AM
 #1084

Yes, switching to solo mining if p2pool is 51% attacked is a good solution. You can detect it before losing much income, so it should be adequate.

Also, I'm starting to think maybe p2pool's problems with frequent block changes and high difficulty stem from copying bitcoin's block chain technique directly. P2pool has different needs. Maybe this can be fixed by doing things a little differently. Have to think about that.

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March 01, 2012, 11:21:59 AM
 #1085

Long post Warning:
(hit the scroll wheel down if not interesting in my ramblings on Bitminter, p2pool and a stronger/decentralized network)

BitMinter has been a great place to mine. Dr. Haribo is an awesome pool op and one I have no problems trusting with large sums of coins.  I have however finished migrating my farm to p2pool.  I joined BitMinter (way back when we had 30GH/s and I was 10 of them Smiley ) because I was concerned about the risk large pools represented.  I decided to put my hashing power where my mouth was and it has been an interesting experience.

It wasn't an easy decision as I have grown attached to BitMinter but I have moved to p2pool because I feel it is the best "weapon" against an increasingly centralized Bitcoin.   Small pools find it difficult to grow due to variance which keeps them small and thus they have higher variance (and the cycle repeats).  Even if a pool does grow there is always the risk it displaces a fallen giant, becomes a giant itself and the risk remains.  Thus I now believe that "medium sized pools" are unstable.  They either decline or grow and while the top few pools may change mining will be dominated by a dynamic of a few super pools and lots of tiny ones.

<snip>

Although I have only been mining for a few months, I have tried many different pools and definitely agree with D&T, BitMinter is a great place to mine and Dr. H is an awesome pool op.  I got my first 5790 this week, and have 5 more on their way, along with 6 7970's, so my hash rate should improve significantly soon Smiley

After doing some short reading on p2pool, I really find myself drawn to it simply because of its decentralized nature.  It seems large pools with low variance are preferred by the common miner, but large pools seem to go against bitcoin's original design.  I still have a lot of reading/learning to do, but the decentralized aspect alone really draws me to p2pool.  However, until I get my rigs up and running and read up further on p2pool, I'll definitely stay at Bitminter as it is the best of the many other sites I tested (IMHO). 

I'ld also like to thank D&T for all the assistance provided to me (and countless others on this forum).  He really helped me get off the ground.
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March 02, 2012, 04:36:45 AM
 #1086

Today a Radeon 5850 I ordered arrived, and I installed it in a workstation at the office that is only used 3-5 hours per week.  The rest of the time it is logged off.

I setup the BitMinter client as a service using instsrv.exe and srvany.exe.  The service is set to start automatically, so when the workstation boots up to the login screen, the service starts and it mines at about 315 MH/s.

When a user logs in, a login scripts stops the service and taskkill.exe shuts down javaw.exe (it doesn't shut down when the service stops, for some reason).

When the user logs off, a logoff scripts starts up the service again.

I was so excited to see that BitMinter worked as a service because Diablo was only giving me ~250 MH/s.  +65MH/s with BitMinter = Woot!
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March 02, 2012, 03:52:41 PM
 #1087

Damn these long blocks!  Think its time for things to swing the other way now  Smiley
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Gerald Davis


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March 02, 2012, 03:54:58 PM
 #1088

Today a Radeon 5850 I ordered arrived, and I installed it in a workstation at the office that is only used 3-5 hours per week.  The rest of the time it is logged off.

I setup the BitMinter client as a service using instsrv.exe and srvany.exe.  The service is set to start automatically, so when the workstation boots up to the login screen, the service starts and it mines at about 315 MH/s.

When a user logs in, a login scripts stops the service and taskkill.exe shuts down javaw.exe (it doesn't shut down when the service stops, for some reason).

When the user logs off, a logoff scripts starts up the service again.

I was so excited to see that BitMinter worked as a service because Diablo was only giving me ~250 MH/s.  +65MH/s with BitMinter = Woot!

Is this in Windows XP by any chance?  I didn't think mining as a service is possible in Windows 7 as GPU are user level drivers.
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March 02, 2012, 06:08:41 PM
 #1089

Is this in Windows XP by any chance?  I didn't think mining as a service is possible in Windows 7 as GPU are user level drivers.

Yeah, it's WinXP.  I'll try it on a Win7 sometime today and let you know whether it works.
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1ngldh


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March 02, 2012, 06:09:34 PM
 #1090

Is this in Windows XP by any chance?  I didn't think mining as a service is possible in Windows 7 as GPU are user level drivers.

Yeah, it's WinXP.  I'll try it on a Win7 sometime today and let you know whether it works.
Don't bother; it won't. Different driver architecture.

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March 02, 2012, 08:09:21 PM
 #1091

Hmm, I always assumed it couldn't run as a service because it uses a window and/or systray.

Now I was hoping I could build "run as service" into the miner. But I guess it would only work on XP? Is it impossible for a service to use the GPU on later Windows OSes?

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Gerald Davis


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March 02, 2012, 08:33:00 PM
 #1092

Now I was hoping I could build "run as service" into the miner. But I guess it would only work on XP? Is it impossible for a service to use the GPU on later Windows OSes?

That is my understanding.  Windows Vista and later GPU run as user mode drivers.  The switch from handling them as kernel mode (XP and prior) was done to improve stability of the OS.  Generally speaking it is a good idea.  A user mode driver crash can be managed by the OS "the ATI driver has stopped respond and was restarted" vs hard lockup.
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March 02, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
 #1093

A driver level crash can be managed by the OS "the ATI driver has stopped respond and was restarted" vs hard lockup.

Boy I have I seen that enough when overclocking my personal PC for hashing... Very glad it didnt lock and force me to restart every time.  Saved me a lot of time, lol.  Cheesy
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March 02, 2012, 11:33:19 PM
 #1094

Windows is a very interesting OS.
On one hand GPU drivers have been moved to the userland while on the other, menial tasks like font parsing are still being done at kernel level (consequence).
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March 03, 2012, 08:33:46 PM
 #1095

Is this in Windows XP by any chance?  I didn't think mining as a service is possible in Windows 7 as GPU are user level drivers.
Yeah, it's WinXP.  I'll try it on a Win7 sometime today and let you know whether it works.
Don't bother; it won't. Different driver architecture.
I'm stubborn and gave it a try since it only took a few minutes.  As expected, you're correct; running BitMinter as a service on Windows 7 does not work.  It only works on Win XP.
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March 04, 2012, 05:39:41 AM
 #1096

I know you have the box to check to get notified about the latest blocks with a sound effect, but I would find it handy to be notified in other ways.....

Like being able to get an email or txt msg when BTC/NMC (able to choose as I dont care as much about NMC notifications) block is found, giving a summary of my stats, for that block or the last N shifts or something like (maybe being able to choose how much information one wants).   

Anyways, definitely nothing major, not sure how much it would be used, but I would find it handy.... probably email notification would be my preference. 

Again, not sure how many would want to use it, but I would, so I figured I'ld throw it out here  Grin
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March 04, 2012, 07:01:14 AM
 #1097

I know you have the box to check to get notified about the latest blocks with a sound effect, but I would find it handy to be notified in other ways.....

Like being able to get an email or txt msg when BTC/NMC (able to choose as I dont care as much about NMC notifications) block is found, giving a summary of my stats, for that block or the last N shifts or something like (maybe being able to choose how much information one wants).   

Anyways, definitely nothing major, not sure how much it would be used, but I would find it handy.... probably email notification would be my preference. 

Again, not sure how many would want to use it, but I would, so I figured I'ld throw it out here  Grin
I think a similar idea regarding SMS notifications was brought up a couple weeks ago, but I don't recall whether it made it onto Doc's incredibly long list.  If an option for E-Mail notification ever becomes available, I will also use it.  Either way, I love BitMinter.

As a side note, nice jump in hashing power from your recent video card purchases, boozer.
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March 04, 2012, 04:36:32 PM
 #1098


As a side note, nice jump in hashing power from your recent video card purchases, boozer.

Thanks!  I had a hell of time getting video cards, but they finally started coming in.  I spent a month on two 10+ 5970 deals which both fell through, one ended up being a scammer (found out before i lost any money), and the second was a guy on ebay that said he would sell me quite a few, he kept stringing me along and after about two weeks, he said "sorry" and that he was "all sold out".  Then, a guy on this board said he would sell me 3.... I paid him and a few days later, he said he actually only had two.  Then I got the two he had, and one of them had a bad core (although I have no complaints about this person, he handled everything very well.... just part of my card acquiring saga).  So finally I decided to give up on the 5970 and go half and half with 5970/7970 on my farm since I could by and receive 7970's outright....   So I ordered the 7970's, and with the six I ordered, the company offerred free next day air....  just over a week later, I still hadn't received anything.  I finally got a note from them that the cards were backordered and my order had been refunded.... sigh.   So, I finally bought the remainder off NewEgg and they should be here this week!  But man, I had hoped to have everything up and running at full capacity a couple weeks ago, lol.
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March 04, 2012, 05:01:23 PM
 #1099

Wow, what an ordeal!  Glad to hear things are starting to work out for you.
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March 04, 2012, 06:10:28 PM
 #1100

Thanks for ideas for messages, boozer. Added to earlier ideas on a general message system. It will be super cool, only problem is to find the time to make it. Wink

That's one hell of a hunt for GPUs too - good that it's finally coming together. Smiley

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