[ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs

[ZiG]

Bad example, I could also slaughter the cow for meat, hold the cow for amusement or transportation, work on the field, or research purposes (or to annoy my neighbour by having it poop on his lawn).

All these actions, goods or services can be priced in a common form of value.

After all, you don´t necessarily hold the cow for milk, you could also hold it for profit on the sold milk (fiat or goods) or because you are speculating that livestock will be worth more in a year, due to livestock shortage.

Historically cows are farmed because of their MILK...not the meat in pounds...MILK (BTC)...buddy...

Think about it...before posting back...

EDIT...:

Hundreds of years already...MILK (BTC) ...Capisco...


$ is doomed...BTC not...

$$$ = COLORED PRINTED PAPER...OK...Who is the printer...?...in control...? ...Think again...

BTC printing...

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[Collider]

If the milk price tanks though, I can still eat my cow.

The cow doesn´t compete for a fixed, newly generated portion of the global milk production though, does it?
Does your cow produce more milk when other farmers kill their cows?

Could you make you cow produce a different milk-like substance, which shares the basic formular of milk but works in a different manner?

Do you pay for your cow with milk? (Most people don´t.) If you get less different goods for your produced milk, but still produce more milk than you payed for it, would you consider it as a positive ROI?
(If you weren´t able to drink your milk because of lactose intollerance, as obviously you cannot eat BTC).

[ZiG]

If the milk price tanks though, I can still eat my cow.

The cow doesn´t compete for a fixed, newly generated portion of the global milk production though, does it?
Does your cow produce more milk when other farmers kill their cows?

Could you make you cow produce a different milk-like substance, which shares the basic formular of milk but works in a different manner?

What I am saying...OPEN your mind, buddy...

[s1gs3gv]

The argument "if you had bought bitcoin at the time Z" and comparing it to a different investment is a fallacy, as it comes with different risks and possible rewards.

Collider, let me help you think about this more clearly.

If you have some fiat to spend, you can buy a miner, buy BTC or do something else with it.
We are interested in comparing the first two options.

So lets say you have enough fiat to buy a SP30, which for purposes of this exercise costs (say) $5000 or 9 BTC. These numbers are only approximate and don't really matter for this example.

Now, if you buy a SP30 and you mine only 6 BTC, then you have effectively purchased 6 BTC for $5000 (plus hosting costs)

But if you buy BTC with your fiat you have 9 BTC. And you have it all in hand up front and you have some flexibility deciding when and if you want to convert it back to fiat, whereas when you mine BTC you don't have so much flexibility because you only earn BTC a bit at a time, and you are exposed to risk coming from changing network difficulty.

So, which would you rather do ?

Hint #1: the answer depends on how many BTC you think a SP30 will mine.
Hint #2: no body can predict with absolute certainty what future network difficulty will be, but we can all probably agree that it isn't going to get lower any time soon and there is a good chance it will go ballistic over the next 4-6 weeks of diff changes.

You have to mine more BTC with an SP30 (or any other miner) than it costs in BTC if you want to recover the cost of your 'investment'. It doesn't matter whether you calculate this in fiat or BTC.

Obviously, if you don't care whether you recover your costs, then all this doesn't matter.

[Collider]

With low enough power costs and high enough efficiency miners can produce/earn Bitcoin until the "end of time".

If I think my miner returns 6 Bitcoin (after hosting...) vs 9 spent Bitcoin and the Bitcoin price has doubled during mining, I would consider it a positive ROI.
If my miner returns 24 Bitcoin (after hosting...) vs 9 spent Bitcoin and the Bitcoin price has halved during mining, I would consider it a positive ROI.

If the difficulty gets so high i can´t pay the powerbill for the miner, and this continues until the miner is non operatable, I shall consider it as a loss if I haven´t mined enough dollar / bitcoin equivalent back with this device, and i will sell the server PSUs.

Hint: I am not buying a September sp30.
       I don´t think it has no chance of ROI
       I don´t think (pure voodoo projected) ROI is the factor for pricing. It is supply and demand. If the market decides it is going to purchase all September production for 20k / sp30, spondoolies should price it as such.

[s1gs3gv]

With low enough power costs and high enough efficiency miners can produce/earn Bitcoin until the "end of time".

In ever decreasing amounts asymptotically approaching 0. And you are likely to compound your losses by the cost of operating your equipment at a loss.

Perhaps you don't care about losses.

But mining needs to be economically sustainable if the network is going to survive.

[Collider]

Mining is economical.

Every rig I own earns back money, all my previous rigs reached ROI.

Aslong as current miners make back electricity + X, it is economical, even if new hardware cost was 10 times what it is now, and only stupid people would buy new hardware.
They would still have it running in the hope of achieving ROI, and therefore supporting the network.

Spondoolies prices their hardware somewhere between supply & demand and projected ROI.

Do you know what hardware prices will be in September? How can you claim that it will not reach ROI or is overpriced?
Do you know that every business wants to gain a profit from its sales?

If not enough people buy in at this price, it will naturally be lowered.

If you are upset about hardware prices, go bug BFL, AM (especially for previous devices), BlackArrow, Cointerra, HashFast. After that you can come back and whine how you want lower prices.

[RoadStress]

But mining needs to be economically sustainable if the network is going to survive.

This is where you are wrong again. I think that in the future mining will not be economically sustainable and it will run on the red sustained by companies/parties that have an interest in the blockchain security/other features. Just like every website owner has to pay for a webserver which isn't directly economically sustainable, but indirectly, the same can apply to bitcoin mining. I imagine that BitPay affords to pay 100k/year for electricity just to run X number of Th/s or Ph/s without buying the hardware and even if the miners are running on red.

[Collider]

But mining needs to be economically sustainable if the network is going to survive.

This is where you are wrong again. I think that in the future mining will not be economically sustainable and it will run on the red sustained by companies/parties that have an interest in the blockchain security/other features. Just like every website owner has to pay for a webserver which isn't directly economically sustainable, but indirectly, the same can apply to bitcoin mining. I imagine that BitPay affords to pay 100k/year for electricity just to run X number of Th/s or Ph/s without buying the hardware and even if the miners are running on red.

While I think in the foreseable future it will be somethink like electricity price + ~20% as the lowest possible margin for new hardware investments,
the assertion presented by Roadstress is technically viable and could become reality.

Anyway, exciting times!

[patrike]

What is your experence of the hash rates reported by the Cgminer API for the SP10 miner?
What could the explaination be when a SP10 miner display 1418 GH/s in the web interface, but connecting to the Cgminer API, the response is 1320 GH/s ("MHS 5s" and "MHS av" around 1320000 all the time).

[RoadStress]

What is your experence of the hash rates reported by the Cgminer API for the SP10 miner?
What could the explaination be when a SP10 miner display 1418 GH/s in the web interface, but connecting to the Cgminer API, the response is 1320 GH/s ("MHS 5s" and "MHS av" around 1320000 all the time).

This

The cgminer API computes the rate by values miner gate provides, and I didn't put too much effort into making it 100% correct - it's not trivial to do in our architecture. It`s way less accurate then what you see in the WebUI.
What you see in the pool is the most accurate, but it is not very stable because of the nondeterministic nature of mining.

[raskul]

i have now closed the p2pool nodes for Israel and Iceland. no point maintaining them if moderators delete threads relating to it.

apologies (on behalf of BCTalk) to those who were mining on them or had them as failover.

[zvisha]

The argument "if you had bought bitcoin at the time Z" and comparing it to a different investment is a fallacy, as it comes with different risks and possible rewards.

Collider, let me help you think about this more clearly.
... bla bla bla ...
Obviously, if you don't care whether you recover your costs, then all this doesn't matter.

Just for the sake of my love to math (and this is the last post I will write in the subject of ROI):

Let's assume fixed BTC price for ease of math. We don't really know where it will be in 1 year.

In order for the SP30 to become non-profitable, it has to mine less then 100$ a month.
Today it would mine about 2000$ per month.
That means the difficulty rose by factor of 20.
That means that the network difficulty is around 2400PH, so someone have manufactured over 2300PH of miners.
Lets assume, for fun sake, that our competitor starts using today 16nm technology to make 10TH miners for 2000$  and he is building data-centers (let's say the data-centers are build for free, and there are no cooling expenses, because this competitor is a polar bear with his own construction company).
He will have to create ~230,000 of those 10TH miners and it will cost him (just the miners!) 460 million$. Let's assume the bear is taking a loan of 480M$ from the penguins for 5% annual interest.

And if SP30 6TH mines makes 100$ a month, this 10TH polar bear miner makes 180$ per month.
Let's assume electricity costs of 100$ per this miner (that covers DC IT, power etc` - really efficient bear that is) - this means each miner makes 80$ profit per month till autumn 2015, when we have the split. Each miner made ~1000$, didn't even ROI. Now miner makes just 90$ and doesn't cover the maintenance. Now the penguins are coming for the bear and saying like "Yo, bear, where is our dough?" and the bear is like "What are you talking about? That was other bear, guys, I am a tourist" and they are like "You have a T-shirt from the BTC conference, that is you, give us your private key". And he is like "I am sorry, I didn't compute the ROI of the 260,000 that I build, let's work out some deal" and they are like "no deal for you bear, get the f**k from Iceland"

Now I have to go to sleep, please upgrade to latest FW 1.4.8, the best FW for SP10 miner ever made.

[Syke]

If I think my miner returns 6 Bitcoin (after hosting...) vs 9 spent Bitcoin and the Bitcoin price has doubled during mining, I would consider it a positive ROI.

Excellent. Send me 9 btc now, and when the price doubles, I'll send you 6 btc.

[Biodom]

In order for the SP30 to become non-profitable, it has to mine less then 100$ a month.
Today it would mine about 2000$ per month.

Where this number of $100/mo originated from? This is completely unrealistic anywhere, but in central WA.
$0.12/kwh (with delivery; cheap in Texas)X24hrX30.5 (average days in a mo)X2.4 (isn't SP-30 2.4kw minimum?)=$211/mo. In CA-$500/mo.
Miner itself is not free either. If you point me to how I can reliably host SP-30 for $100/mo for 6mo-1 year, I will probably order another one  

[s1gs3gv]

In order for the SP30 to become non-profitable, it has to mine less then 100$ a month.

< rest of deep analysis removed >

Before we worry about end of life recovery of operating costs, we need to worry about recovering the capital costs.

It is very unlikely that the September SP30 will ever pay for itself before it operates in the red.

[zvisha]

In order for the SP30 to become non-profitable, it has to mine less then 100$ a month.
Today it would mine about 2000$ per month.

Where this number of $100/mo originated from? This is completely unrealistic anywhere, but in central WA.
$0.12/kwh (with delivery; cheap in Texas)X24hrX30.5 (average days in a mo)X2.4 (isn't SP-30 2.4kw minimum?)=$211/mo. In CA-$500/mo.
Miner itself is not free either.

Why hosted? A real man keeps his miner in his house and uses it for a pillow.  

[zvisha]

In order for the SP30 to become non-profitable, it has to mine less then 100$ a month.

Before we worry about end of life recovery of operating costs, we need to worry about recovering the capital costs.

It is very unlikely that the September SP30 will ever pay for itself before it operates in the red.

I am talking science to you but you are just trying to hypnotise me by repeating "it will never ROI". If you don't start talking sense I will have to stop answering.

[Biodom]

In order for the SP30 to become non-profitable, it has to mine less then 100$ a month.
Today it would mine about 2000$ per month.

Where this number of $100/mo originated from? This is completely unrealistic anywhere, but in central WA.
$0.12/kwh (with delivery; cheap in Texas)X24hrX30.5 (average days in a mo)X2.4 (isn't SP-30 2.4kw minimum?)=$211/mo. In CA-$500/mo.
Miner itself is not free either.

Why hosted? A real man keeps his miner in his house and uses it for a pillow.  

I know that you are kidding...not hosted-0.12/kwh residential, hosted-best price is $99/kwh/mo, still $240-250/mo, slightly less if a long contract
Anyway, i am comfortable to wait and see how it will turn out.

[Syke]

Why hosted? A real man keeps his miner in his house and uses it for a pillow.  

I replaced my mattress with SP10s. Keeps me warm at night.