[ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs

[Biffa]

Spondoolies

Can you provide some more information on the hosting arrangements for the SP30 group buy, still sat on the email asking if I want it shipped or hosted, was going to email you but figured some other people might be in the same position so a public answer would be better.

It says 6 month minimum, how is this going to be charged. All 6 months in advance, 1 month in advance, 1 month in arrears.

Will we have remote access to the miners, my current SP10's are hosted with you and the biggest drawback is not having access (though support is very quick)

TIA

The DC requires 6 month minimum and $100 setup fee.

We'll charge in advance:

Bulk shipping cost ~$100 - we'll figure out the exact cost later
$100 - Setup fee
5 X $290 - $310 - 5 months of hosting, depending on the selected power mode

No remote access, we'll set pool configuration. Changing will be done by emails.

The email said that hosting required a 6 month commitment, which would indicate to me that it required 6 months up front. What other commitment would there be for a company selling hosting to a bunch of geeks on the internet from all over the world?

You won't be required to pay all up front for the 6 months. The commitment would be that you agree and commit to pay for the next 6 months of hosting. I am sure that if you won't pay starting any month that won't be a problem because they still have your equipment and they will not release it to you until you pay up + maybe you will get blacklisted with them. That's how I see it at least. Things don't need to be complicated at all.

Looks like it is a pay in advance setup. With one month free as agreed in the Group buy. Not a bad thing, just helps clarify things a bit.

Correct.

It would be interesting to know if hosting deal can be extended past the initial 6 months ...
I see some possible outcomes after the 6 month are over:
1) continue with the Titan hosting by your own using same or maybe new prices (possible higher) for small contracts.
2) continue with the Titan hosting by extending the existing bulk contract using same or maybe new prices.
3) cannot continue with Titan and everyone will have to ship the miner to their location.

SP30 not Titan, you might be in the wrong thread mate, although with the same suspects posting in both threads I can see how it can get confusing

[1714297617]

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[JakeTri]

It would be interesting to know if hosting deal can be extended past the initial 6 months ...
I see some possible outcomes after the 6 month are over:
1) continue with the Titan hosting by your own using same or maybe new prices (possible higher) for small contracts.
2) continue with the Titan hosting by extending the existing bulk contract using same or maybe new prices.
3) cannot continue with Titan and everyone will have to ship the miner to their location.

SP30 not Titan, you might be in the wrong thread mate, although with the same suspects posting in both threads I can see how it can get confusing

I'm talking about hosting our SP30 in Titan data center.

This is the DC: http://serverfarmrealty.com/data-centers/titan/

For bulk customers, assuming they'll have space and cooling capacity, we'll do an intro with the DC owner.

[Biffa]

It would be interesting to know if hosting deal can be extended past the initial 6 months ...
I see some possible outcomes after the 6 month are over:
1) continue with the Titan hosting by your own using same or maybe new prices (possible higher) for small contracts.
2) continue with the Titan hosting by extending the existing bulk contract using same or maybe new prices.
3) cannot continue with Titan and everyone will have to ship the miner to their location.

SP30 not Titan, you might be in the wrong thread mate, although with the same suspects posting in both threads I can see how it can get confusing

I'm talking about hosting our SP30 in Titan data center.

This is the DC: http://serverfarmrealty.com/data-centers/titan/

For bulk customers, assuming they'll have space and cooling capacity, we'll do an intro with the DC owner.

Thanks for the clarification, bit confusing there, well for me at least

[2112]

Secondary cooling loop filled with what?

This is my key objection about your deceptive marketing: your magical fluid magically condenses on the lid of the container and drops back into the immersion bath. Either a miracle of thermodynamics or heat is tunneling into an alternate dimension.

Rest assured that there is no commission from 3M. Find a better/cheaper liquid and we'll use it

The commission structure is between you and your manager/vendor. Maybe somebody is ripping you off?

The technical facts are simple: anything involved in Bitcoin mining that produces significant heat output can be rather easily redesigned to be wrapped around heat exchange cylinders. If anyone is building an industrial-scale facility they can easily hire the relevant engineers to design small PCBs. There is no technical requirement to become dependent on a single vendor of astronomically expensive patented heat-exchange component. Bitcoin mining is not limited by the speed-of-light or similar that constrained the computer designers at Cray, IBM, Intel and others.

[Guy Corem]

DataTank Immersion (3M Novec): <$0.65/W (PUE 1.01) -> $650/kW
...
To put this in perspective, Titan has a PUE of 1.25 (25% of electricity go to cooling).

Assuming you have nothing to do with the residual heat, how do you handle it ?
My assumption is that you still need outside chiller. If you're in an hot locale like Israel, you can't use free air chiller, and your PUE will be much greater than 1.01

I'm guessing the following, correct me if I'm wrong:

- For IC DT PUE, you count only the internal looses inside the DataTank, without the external cooling PUE
- For Titan PUE (as an example), you count internal + external

My point is that if you're deploying in the right locale in terms of electricity cost and weather (e.g. Iceland, Canada or WA state as an example), you can deploy at a much cheaper cost and the internal PUE loses compare to IC DT won't hurt you much.

Another issue you don't take into your calculations: With Bitcoin mining, the best strategy, IMHO, is to mine for 3-4 months on new hardware, afterwards upgarde the hardware and sell the old one for nice residual value (25%-50% in some cases). You simply can't do that with Immersion Cooling DataTanks.

Guy

[jimmothy]

DataTank Immersion (3M Novec): <$0.65/W (PUE 1.01) -> $650/kW
...
To put this in perspective, Titan has a PUE of 1.25 (25% of electricity go to cooling).

Assuming you have nothing to do with the residual heat, how do you handle it ?
My assumption is that you still need outside chiller. If you're in an hot locale like Israel, you can't use free air chiller, and your PUE will be much greater than 1.01

I'm guessing the following, correct me if I'm wrong:

- For IC DT PUE, you count only the internal looses inside the DataTank, without the external cooling PUE
- For Titan PUE (as an example), you count internal + external

My point is that if you're deploying in the right locale in terms of electricity cost and weather (e.g. Iceland, Canada or WA state as an example), you can deploy at a much cheaper cost and the internal PUE loses compare to IC DT won't hurt you much.

Another issue you don't take into your calculations: With Bitcoin mining, the best strategy, IMHO, is to mine for 3-4 months on new hardware, afterwards upgarde the hardware and sell the old one for nice residual value (25%-50% in some cases). You simply can't do that with Immersion Cooling DataTanks.

Guy

Welcome back!

To answer a few of your questions:

No need for a chiller. Only pump + fans. It works in any climate as far as I know.

PUE is 1.01 or less. Asicminers 500MW DC uses a single 1.1kw pump and 400w worth of fans.

I agree that you will eventually need to sell hardware but it wont be 3-4 months at $0.025/kwh.

As for resale, it will still be possible. Shipping blades will be cheap and there is a conversion to air cooling.

Although I don't know who you would be selling hardware to. Maybe someone who pays $0.01/kwh?

[Guy Corem]

Welcome back!

You never sleep ?

No need for a chiller. Only pump + fans. It works in any climate as far as I know.

This is locale dependent. Can't be otherwise. Simple Thermodynamics.

[jimmothy]

No need for a chiller. Only pump + fans. It works in any climate as far as I know.

This is locale dependent. Can't be otherwise. Simple Thermodynamics.

But it can be otherwise. There are novec fluids that boil at a wide range of temperatures.

[Guy Corem]

No need for a chiller. Only pump + fans. It works in any climate as far as I know.

This is locale dependent. Can't be otherwise. Simple Thermodynamics.

But it can be otherwise. There are novec fluids that boil at a wide range of temperatures.

And ? What do you do eventually with the residual heat ?

(after all the boiling, transferring and paying for 3M fluids)

[jimmothy]

No need for a chiller. Only pump + fans. It works in any climate as far as I know.

This is locale dependent. Can't be otherwise. Simple Thermodynamics.

But it can be otherwise. There are novec fluids that boil at a wide range of temperatures.

And ? What do you do eventually with the residual heat ?

(after all the boiling, transferring and paying for 3M fluids)

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying the ambient air temp will not be cool enough?

BTW in tests they were able to cool 4KW with 0.2 liters ($50/liter).

[Guy Corem]

... Are you saying the ambient air temp will not be cool enough?

Finally. Locale dependent.

Now go read my first post.

[Guy Corem]

As for resale, it will still be possible. Shipping blades will be cheap and there is a conversion to air cooling.

Untrue. To take advantage of IC DT, you need to design your boards specifically for that purpose. You can't use them outside.

Although I don't know who you would be selling hardware to. Maybe someone who pays $0.01/kwh?

You'll always find someone to sell it to. It depends on the timing and cost. Maximizing ROI is done by selecting the best timing. With IC DT you can't do that.
You end up throw away old HW, which eats considerably into your possible profit.

[jimmothy]

... Are you saying the ambient air temp will not be cool enough?

Finally. Locale dependent.

Now go read my first post.

I mean is that your question?

There are fluids that boil at 76 celsius and you only need ~15 degree temperature difference. Does it get to 60 degrees celsius in Israel?

As for resale, it will still be possible. Shipping blades will be cheap and there is a conversion to air cooling.

Untrue. To take advantage of IC DT, you need to design your boards specifically for that purpose. You can't use them outside.

Here is the AC conversion I am talking about (looks a bit like an sp10): https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByWHHc0u_thNT293cTl6OXBVZms&usp=drivesdk&tid=0ByWHHc0u_thNMWtQeDNiT2duU0E#grid

Although I don't know who you would be selling hardware to. Maybe someone who pays $0.01/kwh?

You'll always find someone to sell it to. It depends on the timing and cost. Maximizing ROI is done by selecting the best timing. With IC DT you can't do that. You throw away old HW.

But when you throw out the hardware you don't waste a case, heatsinks, fans, powersupplies, etc. Only boards which can be replaced a several times faster than an air cooled DC.

[Guy Corem]

One more thing I want to add:

I believe I know this market quite well. I'm aware of all the 5 big players deployment plans. Locale and deployment methods.
Beside AM, which isn't really a player, none of them are considering IC DT. It's simply way too expensive.

The only one that came close, was 21e6. They experimented with oil cooling and decided eventually to do air cooling.

Disclaimer: My visibility into the Chinese market is very limited.

Guy

Got to go to work.

[jimmothy]

One more thing I want to add:

I believe I know this market quite well. I'm aware of all the 5 big players deployment plans. Locale and deployment methods.
Beside AM, which isn't really a player, none of them are considering IC DT. It's simply way too expensive.

The only one that came close, was 21e6. They experimented with oil cooling and decided eventually to do air cooling.

Disclaimer: My visibility into the Chinese market is very limited.

Guy

Got to go to work.

Who exactly are the big players? Does 70PH+ not qualify?

What about bitfurys 20mw DC which will use immersion cooling?

[Guy Corem]

One more thing I want to add:

I believe I know this market quite well. I'm aware of all the 5 big players deployment plans. Locale and deployment methods.
Beside AM, which isn't really a player, none of them are considering IC DT. It's simply way too expensive.

The only one that came close, was 21e6. They experimented with oil cooling and decided eventually to do air cooling.

Disclaimer: My visibility into the Chinese market is very limited.

Guy

Got to go to work.

Who exactly are the big players? Does 70PH+ not qualify?

What about bitfurys 20mw DC which will use immersion cooling?

I won't reply to the first question.

Show me reference to BitFury 20mw DC and IC please.

[jimmothy]

Show me reference to BitFury 20mw DC and IC please.

http://www.digitoday.fi/bisnes/2014/05/28/nain-turun-saaristoon-nousi-jattimainen-bitcoin-louhimo/20147524/66

[Guy Corem]

Show me reference to BitFury 20mw DC and IC please.

http://www.digitoday.fi/bisnes/2014/05/28/nain-turun-saaristoon-nousi-jattimainen-bitcoin-louhimo/20147524/66

I'm under friendly NDA. I'll just comment that it's BS.

[Crypto_Cumbrian]

Thanks for the Info, Just done my Sums for UK import duty.

(a)£530 pounds Import duty.

(b)£131 for a KW/m(month) at 0.16 Pence a KW/h

(c)£297 to £321 (2500w to 2700w) a Month in power usage

So 6 Month of usage in the UK  . Worst case  a+(6xc)=£2456  (current dollar conversion $4164).

Cost to Host with Setup and Shipping $1750.  

Saving $2414  or £1423.

Answer is Hosting all the Way.

C_C

[antirack]

Passive 2-phase immersion cooling is often misunderstood. There is no need for a chiller, it uses a simple dry tower, which is essentially the same thing as a radiator in the front of your car or your water cooling system of a PC. And it also works in very hot climates.

The systems are designed to work with hot water (aka hot water cooling). It takes very little energy to cool water from say 70C to 50C even when it's extremely hot outside like in Arizona or other hot places.  (this hot water can in fact also be used to heat up buildings like schools or offices)

http://www.electronics-cooling.com/2014/02/bitcoin-2-phase-immersion-cooling-and-the-implications-for-high-performance-computing/



The PUE of less than 1.01 includes the _total_ cooling process, including device and building cooling. There is nothing else required. There is no trickery. In fact it's less than that. If you'd use wet towers, or a river near by, it would be lower. But why waste the water and waste time with an open system (needs frequent cleanup)?