[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[Alphi]

Mintpal chopping more coins from their exchange...

soon there will only be 4 options in the LTC market.

PND has been growing strong since their revival plans were leaked... perhaps we should borrow some ideas from our black and white furry friends.

[ptman]

I've been buying, and mining Karma, since the launch.
But that's correct, to keep my coins, and get 1x KarmaShares, as advertised.

You know that you can still buy Karma at 1.75x (not sure for how long...) right?
So what about spending half of your Karma in Karmashares?

You probably will get more dividends from Karmashares if you spend half of your coins in shares, than by keeping the coins at a 1:1 Karma/Karmashares ratio (because the exchanges could take the most part).

Even if you only think about what is best for you, the 1x Karmashares model is not good.

[b1bl3.com]

you can't just end the 30+ day holding of Karma.
That is the reason why many people decided not to by inn at the 10x period, Me included.

10x or 1x?
That was really the reason you did not buy Karma at 10x? Loose 10x to gain 1x?
I can not understand how can that be a reason. Please do explain.

The only reason I see people not wanting to enter 10x (or 5x, 2.5x, 1.75x) is to mantain the Karma coins, which they can sell at anytime.

Come on guys"  The only reason I see people not wanting to enter 10x (or 5x, 2.5x, 1.75x) is to mantain the Karma coins, which they can sell at anytime "
that is  ?
Let be honest the only reason was that who didnt enter in karmashares was that they didnt trust it .... let be honest.
Even now you dont trust it because if you trust you dont keep karm to get 1x instead to exchange it with shares and get 1.75x and if you trust karmashares llc now you go and buy karm and exchange it ,not sell it at cheap ...

Who bought at 10x,5x,2.5x,1,75x put all the trust kosmost plan ... of course what you think ( ohh is risky,if i loose money) but even now you dont have vision...
Even now is not too late but what can i say ... after the first best offer even if is now lill or other project in future you will regret much more ..

[dips55tree]

I've been buying, and mining Karma, since the launch.
But that's correct, to keep my coins, and get 1x KarmaShares, as advertised.

You should just convert your coins 1.75x then if the deal gets scrapped request your coins back.

Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like.

[b1bl3.com]

I've been buying, and mining Karma, since the launch.
But that's correct, to keep my coins, and get 1x KarmaShares, as advertised.

You should just convert your coins 1.75x then if the deal gets scrapped request your coins back.

Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like.

"Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like"

where did you see it ?

[bitwho]

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.

With requiring them to sign a message they fully agree to the TOS. The TOS would easily nullify these services from profiting while holding the coins of their customers . if some exchange decided to register register and sign the message they would break the law and also come off as shady and would probably loose street credits. We would also have people audit who ever sign up as well. starting from the highest investor and down.

No, the exchange would not loose "street credits" because the exchange owner could setup cold storage wallets in a way they looked 100% similar to normal wallets of normal users in the blockchain.
And if some ID was required from them, they could just say the wallets are from their distant cousins... and provide their ID...lol

The only way out of this is to end the 30+ day thing....
In my opinion we should announce the end of the 1.75x bonus period now (or close to now), with the extension of 2+ weeks so that people that really want to be part of Karmashares have time to buy shares.

No no. i was just pointing out that we can find a working solution to POC. No way i was saying POC is okay to stay.  Priority goes to the KarmashareLLC and Kosmost safety. Until we have a clear and legal representation of the SEC laws and making our offering of POC legal, i am for temporarily removal of POC feature from the LLC.

SEC is serious business. They are going after all kinds of bitcoins services. Especially IPOs.

[dips55tree]

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.

With requiring them to sign a message they fully agree to the TOS. The TOS would easily nullify these services from profiting while holding the coins of their customers . if some exchange decided to register register and sign the message they would break the law and also come off as shady and would probably loose street credits. We would also have people audit who ever sign up as well. starting from the highest investor and down.

No, the exchange would not loose "street credits" because the exchange owner could setup cold storage wallets in a way they looked 100% similar to normal wallets of normal users in the blockchain.
And if some ID was required from them, they could just say the wallets are from their distant cousins... and provide their ID...lol

The only way out of this is to end the 30+ day thing....
In my opinion we should announce the end of the 1.75x bonus period now (or close to now), with the extension of 2+ weeks so that people that really want to be part of Karmashares have time to buy shares.

No no. i was just pointing out that we can find a working solution to POC. No way i was saying POC is okay to stay.  Priority goes to the KarmashareLLC and Kosmost safety. Until we have a clear and legal representation of the SEC laws and making our offering of POC legal, i am for temporarily removal of POC feature from the LLC.

SEC is serious business. They are going after all kinds of bitcoins services. Especially IPOs.

Agreed!  We just need to end it and move on.  We really don't have a choice.

[dips55tree]

I've been buying, and mining Karma, since the launch.
But that's correct, to keep my coins, and get 1x KarmaShares, as advertised.

You should just convert your coins 1.75x then if the deal gets scrapped request your coins back.

Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like.

"Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like"

where did you see it ?

Where does say you can't?

[Chargin]

I've been buying, and mining Karma, since the launch.
But that's correct, to keep my coins, and get 1x KarmaShares, as advertised.

You should just convert your coins 1.75x then if the deal gets scrapped request your coins back.

Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like.

"Karmashares will give you your coins back anytime you like"

where did you see it ?

Where does say you can't?

It is implicit, you are providing equity to Karmashares LLC. Kosmost isn't just holding the funds because he likes to look at a big wallet balance, they are there for Karmashares LLC as a poor form of working capital. Kosmost, at entirely his own discretion, bought people's Karmashares off them with his Karma in the past when people requested Karma back however not a single Karma has left Karmashares LLC to date. I will buy as many Karmashares as people want to sell at 17.5x.   That isn't a typo.

[huige007]

大胆想法 未来是否有电子货币银行存在
Karmashares 未来自己电子货币银行是否可以实现

[KarmaKaguy]

大胆想法 未来是否有电子货币银行存在
Karmashares 未来自己电子货币银行是否可以实现

long time no seen man

[KarmaKaguy]

last call:

Last call for the saving innocence fundraiser!
The fundraiser will close in 24hours. This call is for bitcoin only donations. The few satoshis you see on karmafund.me are mine for testing purposes. Nobody donated btc although some demanded them with quite an emphazise. So, give some satoshis to saving innocence:

www.karmafund.me

[multiinone]

大胆想法 未来是否有电子货币银行存在
Karmashares 未来自己电子货币银行是否可以实现

关于电子货币银行我想可以借鉴一下pandacoin(PND),他们在8月30号会发布一些关于这方面的消息

[Alphi]

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.

With requiring them to sign a message they fully agree to the TOS. The TOS would easily nullify these services from profiting while holding the coins of their customers . if some exchange decided to register register and sign the message they would break the law and also come off as shady and would probably loose street credits. We would also have people audit who ever sign up as well. starting from the highest investor and down.

No, the exchange would not loose "street credits" because the exchange owner could setup cold storage wallets in a way they looked 100% similar to normal wallets of normal users in the blockchain.
And if some ID was required from them, they could just say the wallets are from their distant cousins... and provide their ID...lol

The only way out of this is to end the 30+ day thing....
In my opinion we should announce the end of the 1.75x bonus period now (or close to now), with the extension of 2+ weeks so that people that really want to be part of Karmashares have time to buy shares.

No no. i was just pointing out that we can find a working solution to POC. No way i was saying POC is okay to stay.  Priority goes to the KarmashareLLC and Kosmost safety. Until we have a clear and legal representation of the SEC laws and making our offering of POC legal, i am for temporarily removal of POC feature from the LLC.

SEC is serious business. They are going after all kinds of bitcoins services. Especially IPOs.

if you are worried about the SEC then you really shouldn't be investing in Karmashares at all.

this argument about people (legitimate or otherwise) getting free Karmashares for holding coins has absolutely nothing to do with SEC rules and seems to be more about people trying to maximize their own payouts.

I note how people are arguing about the legalities of Karmashares now that there is 2.5 million dollars up for grabs and yet barely anybody was arguing about the legalities back when it was launched.

the SEC does govern all types of Investment schemes whether they are registered securities or not. so it really doesn't matter if you bought Karmashares or were given them for free you are still operating in a very legal grey area under the umbrella of the SECs protection.

the SEC is there to protect consumers from scams and and dodgy investment schemes not to stifle innovation.

So far Karmashares LLC has acted transparently and in good faith.
if the SEC decides to focus on Karmashares then this will be taken into consideration.

I believe that as long as Karmashares LLC continues to act in good faith.. i.e protect the investments of its legitimate investors.. then it wont have much of a problem in the future.

In a recent case involving Satoshi Dice which was an unregistered bitcoin company owned by bitcoin investors the SEC did get involved.
It should be noted however that the penalty was quite a small fine because Erik had acted in good faith towards his investors and bitcoin is in a legal grey area.

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/us-sec-fines-erik-voorhees-unregistered-bitcoin-ipos/2014/06/03

So before anyone else decides to hit the panic button and start claiming that everything is illegal I would urge you to read up on the subject and come to a more informed conclusion.


DISCLOSURE:

I am not a karmashares holder but under the current rules I should be able to claim some karmashares because I followed the rules.
I am a long term supporter of Karma (the currency and its community)
I take issue with people trying to change the rules seemingly to benefit themselves at the expense of others. Issues have been raised and there are very simple changes to procedure and tightening of the rules that could mitigate the negative effects of any such issues.

At the very least this issue should be proven to exist before action is called for and any action should be put to a vote by all current Karmashares investors and not random thread commentators. (this would currently also exclude my vote but that's the proper thing to do)

Come on guys how about some common sense before we start flooding the thread with scaremongering comments?

my advice to anyone who is afraid of the SEC, IRS or any other legal enforcement organisation... its quite simple.. do not invest and do not use crypto currencies...

[AGcrypto]

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.

With requiring them to sign a message they fully agree to the TOS. The TOS would easily nullify these services from profiting while holding the coins of their customers . if some exchange decided to register register and sign the message they would break the law and also come off as shady and would probably loose street credits. We would also have people audit who ever sign up as well. starting from the highest investor and down.

No, the exchange would not loose "street credits" because the exchange owner could setup cold storage wallets in a way they looked 100% similar to normal wallets of normal users in the blockchain.
And if some ID was required from them, they could just say the wallets are from their distant cousins... and provide their ID...lol

The only way out of this is to end the 30+ day thing....
In my opinion we should announce the end of the 1.75x bonus period now (or close to now), with the extension of 2+ weeks so that people that really want to be part of Karmashares have time to buy shares.

No no. i was just pointing out that we can find a working solution to POC. No way i was saying POC is okay to stay.  Priority goes to the KarmashareLLC and Kosmost safety. Until we have a clear and legal representation of the SEC laws and making our offering of POC legal, i am for temporarily removal of POC feature from the LLC.

SEC is serious business. They are going after all kinds of bitcoins services. Especially IPOs.

if you are worried about the SEC then you really shouldn't be investing in Karmashares at all.

this argument about people (legitimate or otherwise) getting free Karmashares for holding coins has absolutely nothing to do with SEC rules and seems to be more about people trying to maximize their own payouts.

I note how people are arguing about the legalities of Karmashares now that there is 2.5 million dollars up for grabs and yet barely anybody was arguing about the legalities back when it was launched.

the SEC does govern all types of Investment schemes whether they are registered securities or not. so it really doesn't matter if you bought Karmashares or were given them for free you are still operating in a very legal grey area under the umbrella of the SECs protection.

the SEC is there to protect consumers from scams and and dodgy investment schemes not to stifle innovation.

So far Karmashares LLC has acted transparently and in good faith.
if the SEC decides to focus on Karmashares then this will be taken into consideration.

I believe that as long as Karmashares LLC continues to act in good faith.. i.e protect the investments of its legitimate investors.. then it wont have much of a problem in the future.

In a recent case involving Satoshi Dice which was an unregistered bitcoin company owned by bitcoin investors the SEC did get involved.
It should be noted however that the penalty was quite a small fine because Erik had acted in good faith towards his investors and bitcoin is in a legal grey area.

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/us-sec-fines-erik-voorhees-unregistered-bitcoin-ipos/2014/06/03

So before anyone else decides to hit the panic button and start claiming that everything is illegal I would urge you to read up on the subject and come to a more informed conclusion.


DISCLOSURE:

I am not a karmashares holder but under the current rules I should be able to claim some karmashares because I followed the rules.
I am a long term supporter of Karma (the currency and its community)
I take issue with people trying to change the rules seemingly to benefit themselves at the expense of others. Issues have been raised and there are very simple changes to procedure and tightening of the rules that could mitigate the negative effects of any such issues.

At the very least this issue should be proven to exist before action is called for and any action should be put to a vote by all current Karmashares investors and not random thread commentators. (this would currently also exclude my vote but that's the proper thing to do)

Come on guys how about some common sense before we start flooding the thread with scaremongering comments?

my advice to anyone who is afraid of the SEC, IRS or any other legal enforcement organisation... its quite simple.. do not invest and do not use crypto currencies...

What are these simple changes you speak of, please share.

[Alphi]

What are these simple changes you speak of, please share.

simply looking at how other giveaways are handled. whether it is Cashback offers you get when you buy electronics goods, credit card points, or free prizes you get from the back of cereal packets they are all covered by a legal document which provides legal protection from abuses and fraudulent practices. this is called the Terms and conditions.

step1)  would be to codify the rules in a Terms and Conditions document.
step2)  everyone who owns karmashares can vote it into effect.
step3)  update the website so that anyone who wants to claim free "karmashares" or buy them must agree to the terms and conditions.

once you have the legal framework in place it really is not an issue voiding peoples "karmashares" if they don't abide by the terms and conditions.
as soon as you have legal protection from people 'gaming' the system it becomes trivial to find them and weed them out.

As I understand it karmashares are not registered securities. they are not equity in Karmashares LLC in the same sense that "shares" are equity in a Corporation. At best all they are is a profit sharing agreement between Karmashares LLC and the Karmashares holder.

this means that legally karmashares LLC can do whatever it likes with its revenues as long as it doesn't violate any binding agreements.

anyone who assumes that by collecting Karmashares they are somehow a shareholder in Karmashares LLC and so have all the rights of a shareholder clearly do not understand how this organisation was set up initially.


this document may help people understand the difference between an LLC "member" and a "shareholder"

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/difference-between-shareholder-vs-llc-member-61708.html

[huige007]

我们现在关心Karmashares LLC 未来发展。如何做到Karma成为虚拟网络主流电子货币，要么不做，要做就做到最好。未来是虚拟世界，Karma流通价值自然提升，单方面依赖交易平台还是存在缺陷。炒作货币是快速提升价值但无法长期稳定下来。日本有一种WM卡，可以购物可以充值网络游戏点卡。但价值几乎没什么变动，国外购买只随着法币汇率变动。关键是它无限量发行，Karma要做的应用到那些方面大家可以提出宝贵意见或方案。

[karmala]

Hi, I am just starting to learn how to programm android apps. Have some Java background. So, what do you think would be a simple but useful Karma app? Please, no wallet and simple for a beginner like me.

[clayop]

I moved a large portion of my Karm from Mintpal to my qt-wallet a week ago. So if I hold them over 30 days, am I considered to have Karmashare? Do I have to move the rest of Karm from Mintpal? Asking your opinions. Thanks

You would be considered to also be owning a percentage of the LLC, through share points. Right now the minimum is 10 million coins, and 30+ days for holding for that quarter. (Holding only 30 days would be about 33% of the quarter's share of profits)

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks kosmost! I moved all of my KARM from mintpal to my private wallet. Hopefully I can get a certain percentage of LLC.

[Kokok]

So if I had 8mil Karma in my wallet for the last few months, I am assuming these would not entitle me to any Karma shares. Now I just purchased some Karma yesterday and now am at just over 13mil. So I will have to wait 30 days from yesterday in order to earn Karma shares?

How many Karma shares will 13mil Karma in my wallet earn?
How do I validate the number of shares issued to me?