Bitcoin Forum
November 19, 2017, 02:33:07 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 [656] 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2009284 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 05:41:55 PM
 #13101

"The Blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".
I think you can make an even stronger statement:

"A distributed consensus ledger can only survive if it is successful as money."

Note that Bitcoin did not solve the Byzantine Generals Problem because that problem is unsolvable. Bitcoin made it so that any successful attack is uneconomical. That only works if bitcoins are valued as money.

This means anything that tries to replace Bitcoin's functionality will either do so by being better money or else won't be a distributed consensus ledger.

i think we're making the same argument only in slightly different ways.  i've already expounded on the details as to why i believe this in past posts.

also, i think your statement is only stronger b/c you left out the word "may", whereas i intentionally include it as i can't be totally sure.
Join ICO Now A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511101987
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511101987

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511101987
Reply with quote  #2

1511101987
Report to moderator
1511101987
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511101987

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511101987
Reply with quote  #2

1511101987
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 05:42:17 PM
 #13102

Dow -255
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 05:49:17 PM
 #13103

also, i think your statement is only stronger b/c you left out the word "may", whereas i intentionally include it as i can't be totally sure.
That is precisely why it is stronger.

Given that we know the BGP is mathematically unsolvable, I'm sure we can't do better than an economic solution.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 05:52:02 PM
 #13104


Given that we know the BGP is mathematically unsolvable

i've heard this a few times already.

can u give a simple layman's description to why this is?
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 05:56:25 PM
 #13105

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/517372347356315652
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 06:00:07 PM
 #13106

can u give a simple layman's description to why this is?
I can not, but mathematicians I trust tell me this is the case.

There is this site though:

http://the-paper-trail.org/blog/a-brief-tour-of-flp-impossibility/
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 06:00:28 PM
 #13107

i love the smell of fear in the morning:

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 06:13:22 PM
 #13108

another potential support breaker; oil

Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 06:23:09 PM
 #13109


I don't suggest we "split up" Bitcoin. My question was, "what prevents the rest of the world from adopting Bitcoin, the distributed ledger, but (mostly) ignoring Bitcoin, the currency"?


Nothing prevents it.  And I hope we see greater use of the blockchain as a global trustless ledger moving forward (e.g., colored coins, oracle-based sidechains, etc.). 

But it's important to remember that the only asset that can exist on that ledger free from counter-party risk are bitcoins.  In times of crisis in this blockchain-based future you're imagining, market participants will tend to trade out of assets with counterparty risk, as well as out of oracle-based sidechains, in favor of the one asset that is itself its own backing: bitcoin.  I image bitcoin then as an attractor within a complex dynamical system; there's a constant flow of capital in and out of various blockchain assets, but these just circle around bitcoin.  Bitcoin naturally becomes the reference point1 from which to measure the value of everything else.   In other words, bitcoin becomes money.

1And the value of bitcoin is tethered to the cost of real resources due to the great physical efforts (mining) required to produce them.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 07:15:54 PM
 #13110

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/517392355000070145
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1149


View Profile
October 01, 2014, 08:05:44 PM
 #13111

"The Blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".
I think you can make an even stronger statement:

"A distributed consensus ledger can only survive if it is successful as money."

Note that Bitcoin did not solve the Byzantine Generals Problem because that problem is unsolvable. Bitcoin made it so that any successful attack is uneconomical. That only works if bitcoins are valued as money.

This means anything that tries to replace Bitcoin's functionality will either do so by being better money or else won't be a distributed consensus ledger.

Most early Bitcoin adopters agree that Bitcoin's properties make it money and that "BTC as valuable money" is necessary for the blockchain to function.

An issue for the next phase of adoption though is the next set of adopters do not agree with this largely due to different political views on what constitutes money. Most people I know believe money can only be defined by a government and only functions if it is "managed" by a central body with the power to "expand supply to grow with the economy". (Nevermind this is never actually implemented in practice.) And so refuse to trust in anything else.

The argument that Bitcoin is money is not going to drive adoption, that only served to kick start adoption with politically aligned individuals.

Instead Bitcoin's usefulness as money will have to be the next driver for adoption. Either people find it easier to use online, or merchants offer BTC discounts, or people use Bitcoin to engage in illegal forms of trade, or automated services (bots) find BTC useful to trade, etc. This is where Bitcoin as a superior technology over fiat (a hundred year old technology) becomes a dominate factor.
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1834


[LOL2X]


View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 08:53:56 PM
 #13112

there's no way any of the ETF's will allow settlement for retail investors with the underlying, be it gold or BTC.

Sprott's bullion trusts (EG PHYS) trade at a premium over paper-backed ones because they feature settlement in underlying good.

Perhaps a BTC trust may become available as well.  Easier to audit them than counting bars in a vault!

Must...resist...buying...Hecla...at...52 week...lows....


██████████
█████████████████
██████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████████
████
████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
███████████████████████████
██████
██████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
█████████████
██████████████
████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
██████████████████████
█████████████████
██████████

Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 09:04:04 PM
 #13113

there's no way any of the ETF's will allow settlement for retail investors with the underlying, be it gold or BTC.
This is why any retails who buy a Bitcoin ETF are fools.

All they'll accomplish is give Wall Street their money so somebody else can have bitcoins.
Is that what you mean? Not everyone has a lot of cash to buy bitcoins. Instead they have funds locked into tax shelters and a Bitcoin ETF might be a good option.

1. Set up a Self-Directed IRA
2. Have the IRA transfer funds to an LLC of which you are the manager
3. Buy bitcoins (take possession on behalf of the LLC)
4. Store securely via your preferred method.

EDIT: For clarification, the IRA would invest in the LLC by buying all the shares/units. The LLC then, in turn, invests in bitcoin and takes possession.

We need a s/ware template that can do this all electronically out of the box, like a digital asset trust. Maybe even issue the shares on the blockhain.

justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 09:06:54 PM
 #13114

Most people I know believe money can only be defined by a government and only functions if it is "managed" by a central body with the power to "expand supply to grow with the economy". (Nevermind this is never actually implemented in practice.) And so refuse to trust in anything else.
Most people know more about how electricity works than they understand how money works (this includes the people who issue and control the money).

We know that electricity works in spite of how few people understand it.

Bitcoin will be the same. It will be adopted because it works long before people really understand how and why it works.
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 09:25:54 PM
 #13115

there's no way any of the ETF's will allow settlement for retail investors with the underlying, be it gold or BTC.
This is why any retails who buy a Bitcoin ETF are fools.

All they'll accomplish is give Wall Street their money so somebody else can have bitcoins.

Not necessarily fools, it just depends what they are trying to accomplish. If they are trying to track the price of Bitcoin, the speculative asset, with a convenient mechanism for liquidity, custody, accounting, tax reporting, etc. then the ETF may work quite well, and someone buying it for that purpose is not a fool. If they are trying to insulate themselves from severe financial crises, it likely doesn't, and someone buying it for that purpose is a fool.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436



View Profile
October 01, 2014, 09:31:20 PM
 #13116

All of financial history is littered with powerful demonstrations of how capital seeks the best form of money necessary to route around friction, capital controls, bad laws, regulatory overreach and capture. The crescendo of complexity of all these friction-inducing factors building in the current financial system makes Bitcoin inevitable. In fact, the harder they try to stop it the more desirable it will become to the market.

In the same way that they are trying to outlaw privacy on your computing devices, such that any sane individual becomes a criminal, then an effective outlawing of financial privacy will make all users of good money criminals. At that point, nobody has anything to lose by disregarding the financial regulations and bitcoin is the most frictionless way to route around a damaged, overly-complex failing system, to date.

brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
October 01, 2014, 09:34:15 PM
 #13117

"The Blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money".
I think you can make an even stronger statement:

"A distributed consensus ledger can only survive if it is successful as money."

Note that Bitcoin did not solve the Byzantine Generals Problem because that problem is unsolvable. Bitcoin made it so that any successful attack is uneconomical. That only works if bitcoins are valued as money.

This means anything that tries to replace Bitcoin's functionality will either do so by being better money or else won't be a distributed consensus ledger.

Most early Bitcoin adopters agree that Bitcoin's properties make it money and that "BTC as valuable money" is necessary for the blockchain to function.

An issue for the next phase of adoption though is the next set of adopters do not agree with this largely due to different political views on what constitutes money. Most people I know believe money can only be defined by a government and only functions if it is "managed" by a central body with the power to "expand supply to grow with the economy". (Nevermind this is never actually implemented in practice.) And so refuse to trust in anything else.

The argument that Bitcoin is money is not going to drive adoption, that only served to kick start adoption with politically aligned individuals.

Instead Bitcoin's usefulness as money will have to be the next driver for adoption. Either people find it easier to use online, or merchants offer BTC discounts, or people use Bitcoin to engage in illegal forms of trade, or automated services (bots) find BTC useful to trade, etc. This is where Bitcoin as a superior technology over fiat (a hundred year old technology) becomes a dominate factor.

I have to disagree for a couple of reasons.

The pool of potential adopters that understand the value of a limited supply assets as money is far from saturated (see: gold market)

This next set of adopters you are referring to certainly are in the dark as to what constitutes money but most of them are familiar with concepts of store of value that can appreciate with demand like gold and other precious metals.

Now, for numerous reasons this mainstream audience, a whole generation really, has not had much interest investing into these assets considering the general bear market they have been in and the inconvenience of investing into them.

Enter Bitcoin. For the first time in history, gold is available in digital form at the click of a button and can be purchased with a credit card (Circle).

Political ideologies or usefulness is not required to drive the next adoption phase. All we need is greed. All we need is for Bitcoin to get close to ATH again and we are off to the races.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
zeetubes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 371


View Profile
October 01, 2014, 10:15:36 PM
 #13118

The price of silver got slammed in September, as sales of 1oz American Eagles doubled at the US Mint. Sales of 1oz gold coins went from 21,000 in August to 50,000 in September. 

Sales figures for 1oz Silver coins via the US Mint. The October figures are probably September sales that didn't get reported.
 
July             1,975,000
August     2,007,500
September  4,140,000
October     1,150,000

justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 10:32:37 PM
 #13119

All of financial history is littered with powerful demonstrations of how capital seeks the best form of money necessary to route around friction, capital controls, bad laws, regulatory overreach and capture. The crescendo of complexity of all these friction-inducing factors building in the current financial system makes Bitcoin inevitable. In fact, the harder they try to stop it the more desirable it will become to the market.

In the same way that they are trying to outlaw privacy on your computing devices, such that any sane individual becomes a criminal, then an effective outlawing of financial privacy will make all users of good money criminals. At that point, nobody has anything to lose by disregarding the financial regulations and bitcoin is the most frictionless way to route around a damaged, overly-complex failing system, to date.
...and that's the difference between people who are in this to make a quick buck, and people who are in this to build the tools that serve the future in which we want to live.
tabnloz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 962


View Profile
October 01, 2014, 10:52:19 PM
 #13120

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. - Alan Greenspan

hmmmm...
Pages: « 1 ... 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 [656] 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!