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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2021959 times)
smoothie
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November 20, 2014, 02:11:20 AM
 #17621

hey, looky here.  thanks to brg444, i've catapulted past D&T to #2 poster here on the forum.  thanks brg444!  take me to #1!



Don't worry I will catch up Cypher.  Grin Grin Grin

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November 20, 2014, 02:14:58 AM
 #17622

hey, looky here.  thanks to brg444, i've catapulted past D&T to #2 poster here on the forum.  thanks brg444!  take me to #1!



Don't worry I will catch up Cypher.  Grin Grin Grin

not while i have my shadow assassin.
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November 20, 2014, 02:29:28 AM
 #17623

Quote
Coloring Bitcoins. The systems I’ve looked at don’t route bids/offers over the Bitcoin system so any matching will be done external to the platform. So it seems to me that “decentralized exchanges” on this model will have to require those posting bids or offers to demonstrate that they have placed the corresponding colored coins/Bitcoins in escrow with one or more acceptable third parties.

http://gendal.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/a-decentralized-securities-trading-and-settlement-system-is-being-built-hidden-in-plain-sight/

How true is this?
It's possible to build decentralized order books.

Order matching does not require escrow with a third party.

Orders can be executed with atomic swaps on the blockchain.

At the same time, it's possible to use semi- or fully trusted third parties for any or all of those functions.

I expect both models to see real world usage.

But this doesn't really address the original statement you made. Originally you did not specify that you were talking about certain ways markets could be built that utilized colored coins.

Without that clarification, your statement about sidechains being "more decentralized" is false.

Colored coin tokens are stored on the main chain and enjoy the full security model of Bitcoin. The same can not be said for tokens created on a sidechain.

My original statement refers to trust. Decentralized trust. Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 20, 2014, 02:33:34 AM
 #17624

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.
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November 20, 2014, 02:39:30 AM
 #17625

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

How much bitoshis will it take to create a coloured token. Is there a minimum? Will it burn them as bits forever?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 02:40:28 AM
 #17626

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
BlindMayorBitcorn
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November 20, 2014, 02:43:11 AM
 #17627

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 02:44:54 AM
 #17628

...
I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.

I actually had a similar thought experiment the other day.

Imagine that Satoshi had built sidechains out the box with Bitcoin.

Would we be worse off

or significantly ahead?

I think sidechains are the most natural extension possible to Bitcoin if they can execute what is in the white paper. Of course that remains to be seen but considering just about all of silicon valley invested in their 20 million seed round. My bet is they will.


Satoshi had some ideas about pruning.  Apparent that went nowhere, but it seems possible via some hieroglyphics by some of the more clever of the core devs that sidechains might have been evident as to be a better solution some time ago.

Satoshi also had a seemingly weird artifact where even with a small payment, the whole wad went went into the system and change came back out.  I remember back when I started paying attention some of the main active people at the time were kind of scratching their heads about what he might have been thinking then basically shrugged and said 'who knows?'  The thought occurred to me that between this mechanism and pruning there was potentially quite a bit of room for optimization to deal with some of the scaling issues (but not all.)  I actually like the whole idea of sidechains better anyway due to the advantages of flexibility and diversity in addition to their providing a much better scaling potential.


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November 20, 2014, 02:47:20 AM
 #17629

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.
Now you're just making up inconsistent, dishonest bullshit.
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November 20, 2014, 02:52:04 AM
 #17630

...
I like to think that, like myself, sidechains at least occurred to Satoshi early on in his ruminations about scaling modes.  Likely we'll never know though.  For my part I imagined the name 'child chains', but whatever.  Same diff.  They are just a logical sub-set of the Bitcoin solution one way or another.

I actually had a similar thought experiment the other day.

Imagine that Satoshi had built sidechains out the box with Bitcoin.

Would we be worse off

or significantly ahead?

I think sidechains are the most natural extension possible to Bitcoin if they can execute what is in the white paper. Of course that remains to be seen but considering just about all of silicon valley invested in their 20 million seed round. My bet is they will.


Satoshi had some ideas about pruning.  Apparent that went nowhere, but it seems possible via some hieroglyphics by some of the more clever of the core devs that sidechains might have been evident as to be a better solution some time ago.

Satoshi also had a seemingly weird artifact where even with a small payment, the whole wad went went into the system and change came back out.  I remember back when I started paying attention some of the main active people at the time were kind of scratching their heads about what he might have been thinking then basically shrugged and said 'who knows?'  The thought occurred to me that between this mechanism and pruning there was potentially quite a bit of room for optimization to deal with some of the scaling issues (but not all.)  I actually like the whole idea of sidechains better anyway due to the advantages of flexibility and diversity in addition to their providing a much better scaling potential.



Will there be a sidechain for micropayments? For example? Are there any proposals?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 02:55:59 AM
 #17631

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 20, 2014, 02:59:07 AM
 #17632

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 03:01:25 AM
 #17633

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

there is no point if you believe, as i do, that Bitcoin is destined to become a global reserve currency.
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November 20, 2014, 03:03:56 AM
 #17634

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

there is no point if you believe, as i do, that Bitcoin is destined to become a global reserve currency.

Probably. But Gavin is accepting of the idea, if not somehow working on it. Do we want slick new features? Or something Huh

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 03:04:51 AM
 #17635

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

there is no point if you believe, as i do, that Bitcoin is destined to become a global reserve currency.

Probably. But Gavin is accepting of the idea, if not somehow working on it. Do we want slick new features? Or something Huh

of what idea and working on what?
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November 20, 2014, 03:05:14 AM
 #17636

But sidechains

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 03:07:12 AM
 #17637

But sidechains

link?
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November 20, 2014, 03:09:59 AM
 #17638

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

I don't get sidechains. Will they just be alt-coins then?

Sidechains have two models. They are effectively an alt-chain that is supported by the BTC unit on a 1:1 peg.*

In the proposed concept, they use a SPV client to settle between chains. To secure the chain they would use merged-mining which potentially lets them access 100% of Bitcoin's mining power. They are not quite as secure though as they are not accepted by all nodes.

They can also use a less-decentralized model that rely on Oracles/Federations/Voting Pools.

*the unit is technically not the actual BTC but an image of it locked in a multi-sig type of way. the peg could also be a deterministic function but that defeats the purpose and effectively creates an altcoin.


Ah. Gracias Senior:) But what's the point?

Anonymous sidechain, instant transactions sidechains, decentralized asset registry sidechain, decentralized online copyright and licensing sidechain.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 20, 2014, 03:12:56 AM
 #17639


I'm sorry. Don't tase me bro. I was just asking a question. Do you mean my assumption that the core devs are working to somehow integrate sidechains is mistaken?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 20, 2014, 04:04:42 AM
 #17640


Will there be a sidechain for micropayments? For example? Are there any proposals?

Damned if I know.

Seriously, yes I'm sure there will.  It is one of the areas of highest interest.  Part of this is because it was one of the early sales pitches of Bitcoin and more than a few 'tards bought it because few people seem to have a real grasp of numbers very much larger than the number of fingers on their hand.

The other thing which Bitcoin is really lacking is real-time behavior such that you could actually drink your coffee before it got cold waiting for your transaction to go through.  The problem is currently solved by giving someone else a bunch of Bitcoin that they will hold for you and they will pay off the vendor (in a manner not at all unlike the modern fiat banking system.)  That will also likely be addressed by some of the earlier sidechains, but in a more healthy way without counter-party risk.  This, of course, preserved Bitcoin as 'Sound Money' which is one of the many reasons I'm very excited about sidechains.

I'd suspect that both micropayments and real-time payments will be implemented in the outer layers by a token system backed by pegged Bitcoin.


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